Teen challenges moment-of-silence law

[mcpeepants]

Teen challenges moment-of-silence law

By CARLA K. JOHNSON, Associated Press Writer Fri Oct 26, 8:58 PM ET

CHICAGO - A 14-year-old girl and her outspoken atheist father filed a federal lawsuit Friday challenging a new Illinois law requiring a brief period of prayer or reflective silence at the start of every school day.
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The lawsuit asks the court to declare the law unconstitutional, said attorney Gregory Kulis, who represents Dawn Sherman, a freshman at Buffalo Grove High School, and her father Robert Sherman, a radio talk show host.

Kulis said the law is an attempt to inject religion into public schools in violation of the First Amendment. The suit also seeks a temporary restraining order to halt schools' obeying the law until the case is decided. A judge will consider that request at a hearing Monday.

The lawsuit names Gov. Rod Blagojevich and officials of Township High School District 214 as defendants. School district spokeswoman Venetia Miles said schools will continue to comply with the law.

Blagojevich spokesman Abby Ottenhoff said the law was passed over the governor's veto.

"We don't believe requiring time for reflection is the role of government," Ottenhoff said.

Sherman said he went to court after he asked the school board to ignore the law and was rebuffed. The school district informed him it would carry out the moment of silence during third period, beginning Tuesday, the lawsuit said.

"What we object to is Christians passing a law that requires the public school teacher to stop teaching during instructional time, paid for by the taxpayers, so that Christians can pray," Sherman told The Associated Press.

An Illinois law called the Silent Reflection and Student Prayer Act already allowed schools to observe a moment of silence if they wanted. A new measure changed just a single word: "may" observe became "shall" observe.

The Illinois law originally passed during the spring legislative session, but Blagojevich vetoed it, saying he had doubts about its constitutionality. Lawmakers overrode the veto this month.

It's not Sherman's first church-and-state lawsuit and not the first to involve his children. He has sought removal of religious symbols from city seals and a ban on Boy Scout meetings at public schools.

Some school administrators have complained the law is too ill-defined and puts many teachers and some students in an awkward position.

The Shermans may have legitimate concerns, but they are suing the wrong party when they target the school district, said Brian McCarthy, an attorney for the district.

"The General Assembly — for better, worse, foolish or wise — passed this law and it's not up to school districts to pick and choose which laws they follow," McCarthy said. "He needs to go after the entity that enforces that law."

[spywizard]

actually i would have to support the challenge against any law that requires my child to pray (or reflect) next thing you know there will be "laws" that i must pray 5 times a day..

or maybe 10% of my net pay will be automatically taken for support of my local church.. according to law..

[Tock]

I'd like to see a law requiring a moment of chaos.


What gets me about these moments of silence/prayer/reflection is, that they're usually favored by people who don't think that the public schools are any good at teaching things. Nevertheless, they want the gov't schools to teach their kids about God and prayer and reflection and etc, as if they're any better qualified at spiritual teaching than they are at anything else.

Seems to me, if parents were sincere in their desire for their kids to learn religious values, they would pray with them at home, every day.


I've met this Rob Sherman fellow, and he's a bit of a lunatic, but I wish him good luck. He's got the law on his side -- at least, he's got Supreme Court Rulings.

[Logan13]

The rights of individuals to observe a moment of silence is just as important as the rights of those who do not wish to do so. It is a personal decision and I doubt that these high schoolers were being forced to do it in the first place as I did not read anywhere in that article what would happen, if anything, to a student who did not want to do it.

[gixxerboy1]

The rights of individuals to observe a moment of silence is just as important as the rights of those who do not wish to do so. It is a personal decision and I doubt that these high schoolers were being forced to do it in the first place as I did not read anywhere in that article what would happen, if anything, to a student who did not want to do it.

I dont get it. So pray at home. On your way to school. Do it on your own time. Your at school to learn. Why do they need to take time out for it there? So even if the other kids aren't forced to pray. Even one else has to take a time out and be quiet so the other kids can pray? No what if a kid wants to pray at school no problem. But do it at free period your prayer shouldn't interrupt everything else. Its a slippery slope

[Logan13]

I dont get it. So pray at home. On your way to school. Do it on your own time. Your at school to learn. Why do they need to take time out for it there? So even if the other kids aren't forced to pray. Even one else has to take a time out and be quiet so the other kids can pray? No what if a kid wants to pray at school no problem. But do it at free period your prayer shouldn't interrupt everything else. Its a slippery slope

There are plenty of "interuptions" in high schools these days. A moment of silence is just that, silence. If you can explain to me how this interupts other high schoolers please do so. If they feel uncomfortable around them, perhaps they should be forced to be around them to learn some tolerance. God knows we have to endure alternative lifestyle education in the name of tolerance........Why is one Ok, yet the other is not?

[gixxerboy1]

There are plenty of "interuptions" in high schools these days. A moment of silence is just that, silence. If you can explain to me how this interupts other high schoolers please do so. If they feel uncomfortable around them, perhaps they should be forced to be around them to learn some tolerance. God knows we have to endure alternative lifestyle education in the name of tolerance........Why is one Ok, yet the other is not?

I dont know when this moment of silence is taking place. If its during class time then its taking away time for teaching. If its during homeroom then its not much of an interruption IMO. But why is it needed? Honestly why cant people just pray on their own time?

Alternative lifestyles are a fact. Like it or not. So yes there needs to be some education about it. People may not like gay or agree with gay but there is no Deni gays exist. God on the other hand not as much

[Tock]

The rights of individuals to observe a moment of silence is just as important as the rights of those who do not wish to do so. It is a personal decision and I doubt that these high schoolers were being forced to do it in the first place as I did not read anywhere in that article what would happen, if anything, to a student who did not want to do it.

Well, first off, American citizens do not have to ask permission to exercise their Constitutional rights. Children are citizens, they have all the rights outlined in the US Constitution, they don't have to ask anyone for the right to worship as they please. But, citizens also do not have to ask for their right not to be involved in religious activities. So, to the extent that a moment of silence is a religious activity, then to that extent it is an unconstitutional bit of BS.

As an example --
Madelyn Murray O'Hair's kid was told back in 1961 that he had no choice but to participate in the daily prayer (the Baltimore ISD, I think it was). It was a Christian prayer; the Lord's prayer, I think. So, by law, even the Jewish kids had no choice but to pray a Christian prayer, or else they would be in violation of the law.
Not a nice thing.

So, they challenged this law in court, and it wound up, eventually, before the US Supreme Court, and they ruled, 6-3, that US Citizens can't be required to participate in a Christian prayer by the government. Who can argue with that?



But now we've got a different issue to settle -- is a moment of silence a religious activity?
I'm gonna guess that courts that find that moments of silence performs a secular purpose, something that furthers the educational goals of the school, ya; those courts will rule that it's ok.
And courts that find that moments of silence are essentially opportunities for students to pray or do something religious, well, those courts will rule that it's not ok.

Looks like it's time to sit back, watch and see what happens . . .


Regardless, IMHO, parents should send their kids to school ready to learn. Why the school should be expected to give 'em a session of meditation is beyond me.
If they really wanted to teach them how to meditate, how to reflect, well, in my experience, it takes about 20 minutes to have a productive session. The "moment" (1 minute) the advocates call for, really doesn't do much of anything.
As I recall from my high school days, we had "Moments of Silence" where we had to stand for 60 seconds in total silence, after reciting the Pledge of Allegience. Looking back, I found that to be uncomfortable and pointless. But I did it because the homeroom teacher said we had to do it.

As an adult, I never begin my workday with a moment of silence, and have never encountered anyone who does. None of my employees do, even though they're all somewhat religious.

[Tock]

There are plenty of "interuptions" in high schools these days. A moment of silence is just that, silence. If you can explain to me how this interupts other high schoolers please do so. If they feel uncomfortable around them, perhaps they should be forced to be around them to learn some tolerance. God knows we have to endure alternative lifestyle education in the name of tolerance........Why is one Ok, yet the other is not?

Well, answer me this . . .

What's the purpose of a "Moment of Silence?" What's it supposed to do? And will it actually do what it's supposed to do?

You show me how a Moment of Silence has more of a secular purpose than a religious one, and I'll go along with it.

[Logan13]

I dont know when this moment of silence is taking place. If its during class time then its taking away time for teaching. If its during homeroom then its not much of an interruption IMO. But why is it needed? Honestly why cant people just pray on their own time?

Alternative lifestyles are a fact. Like it or not. So yes there needs to be some education about it. People may not like gay or agree with gay but there is no Deni gays exist. God on the other hand not as much

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Da...ll_010718.html

Here's a fact for you: over 80% of the US population describes themselves as Chrisitian. There is no denying that Christians exist, and like it or not they are well in the majority in this country.
The Separation of Church and State has two sides to it:
1) The Establishment clause
2) The Free Exercise clause
Most liberal-minded folk forget about the ladder..........

[Logan13]

Well, answer me this . . .

What's the purpose of a "Moment of Silence?" What's it supposed to do? And will it actually do what it's supposed to do?

You show me how a Moment of Silence has more of a secular purpose than a religious one, and I'll go along with it.

It doesn't have to be secular.......
Free exercise of religion. Schools don't have to sponsor it, but they can not disallow it either......
First Amendment in the Bill of Rights:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

[Tock]

It doesn't have to be secular.......

I think you'll find that it does.
It will have to neither advance nor retard religion, it must have no entanglements with religion, and it must have a secular purpose.

Free exercise of religion. Schools don't have to sponsor it, but they can not disallow it either......

Agree.
I haven't heard of any school district with a rule that prohibits students from praying on school property. Even I would be against that sort of thing.


IMHO, this whole school prayer/moment of silence thing is a bunch of BS.
Religious training is the responsibility of parents, not the schools. As such, parents ought to be doing this, at home.
Any time a kid wants to pray, let him. Just like any time someone wants to pray when they're in my business, it's fine by me, within reason. By that I mean, I don't want people speaking in tongues and holding up my check-out line. I don't want Muslims laying out a prayer rug in my waiting room 5 times a day. I don't want Episcopalians lighting up incense in my shop, either. If they want to do that, they can do that stuff somewhere else. Same thing for kids. They're in school for only 6 hours a day, and they get plenty of opportunity to slip a few words of silent prayer in hallways, before tests, saying grace over lunch, on the school bus, in study hall. Do they need more? They have Bible clubs as after school activities, like chess clubs, language clubs, and Gay-Straight clubs. What more do they need?
Is it that they want to publicly parade their religion in front of each other? What's up with that? Jesus had a few words to say about people who called attention to their own righteousness, and said that prayer ought to be done in private, in a closet. So what do they want--PA systems? Loudspeakers in every classroom broadcasting their religion for all to see?
What's up with that?

If you let one religious group do all that public stuff, then all the other groups will want the same thing. And then you'll have clashes, and then people will be in school spending more time freaking out over heretics than doing algebra and history essays.

I'm all in favor of letting students do all the religious stuff they want to at home, and letting 'em pray whenever they want. But this scheduled and organized stuff, well, that's just asking for problems. Plus you can't be doing all that official stuff without trampling on the Constitutional rights of students who are required by law to be in school, but who have to identify themselves as people who have the Constitutional right to not have to participate in religious stuff.

Why does anyone feel the need to put their piety on public display? Sheesh . . .

[Logan13]

I think you'll find that it does.
It will have to neither advance nor retard religion, it must have no entanglements with religion, and it must have a secular purpose.

Agree.
I haven't heard of any school district with a rule that prohibits students from praying on school property. Even I would be against that sort of thing.


IMHO, this whole school prayer/moment of silence thing is a bunch of BS.
Religious training is the responsibility of parents, not the schools. As such, parents ought to be doing this, at home.
Any time a kid wants to pray, let him. Just like any time someone wants to pray when they're in my business, it's fine by me, within reason. By that I mean, I don't want people speaking in tongues and holding up my check-out line. I don't want Muslims laying out a prayer rug in my waiting room 5 times a day. I don't want Episcopalians lighting up incense in my shop, either. If they want to do that, they can do that stuff somewhere else. Same thing for kids. They're in school for only 6 hours a day, and they get plenty of opportunity to slip a few words of silent prayer in hallways, before tests, saying grace over lunch, on the school bus, in study hall. Do they need more? They have Bible clubs as after school activities, like chess clubs, language clubs, and Gay-Straight clubs. What more do they need?
Is it that they want to publicly parade their religion in front of each other? What's up with that? Jesus had a few words to say about people who called attention to their own righteousness, and said that prayer ought to be done in private, in a closet. So what do they want--PA systems? Loudspeakers in every classroom broadcasting their religion for all to see?
What's up with that?

If you let one religious group do all that public stuff, then all the other groups will want the same thing. And then you'll have clashes, and then people will be in school spending more time freaking out over heretics than doing algebra and history essays.

I'm all in favor of letting students do all the religious stuff they want to at home, and letting 'em pray whenever they want. But this scheduled and organized stuff, well, that's just asking for problems. Plus you can't be doing all that official stuff without trampling on the Constitutional rights of students who are required by law to be in school, but who have to identify themselves as people who have the Constitutional right to not have to participate in religious stuff.

Why does anyone feel the need to put their piety on public display? Sheesh . . .

no one likes to be told that they can/can not do. If this were treated as a non-issue, it would remain that way. If you want to pray, pray. If you don't want to pray, don't.........
Also, freedom of speech must be realized as well.

[Renesis]

I don't get it I look at a moment of silence as a sign of respect. Some kid died at my high school some years ago and we had a moment of silence for him in homeroom. Im agnostic and I was silent just to respect the fact that he died. IMO I think this is blown way out of proportion with everyone in the damn nation needing to be satisfied. Go fight over important things.

[Logan13]

I don't get it I look at a moment of silence as a sign of respect. Some kid died at my high school some years ago and we had a moment of silence for him in homeroom. Im agnostic and I was silent just to respect the fact that he died. IMO I think this is blown way out of proportion with everyone in the damn nation needing to be satisfied. Go fight over important things.

I see it the same way.
As an agnostic, when I go to weddings and funerals I bow my head slightly out of respect. My religious convictions or lack thereof do not need to become the focus during such occasions.

[l2elapse]

A moment silence could be several things, for some people to pray, some people to reflect their day and etc, too many things can come from a moment of silence

[Tock]

A moment silence could be several things, for some people to pray, some people to reflect their day and etc, too many things can come from a moment of silence

No arguement here.

But, should it be mandatory? Every day? Whether you want to or not?

[Renesis]

I would say no it should definitely not be mandatory.

[spywizard]

damn it, i hate when Tock and i agree..

one point.. if a moment of silence is deemed not to be religious, when does it stop?? what about a day of fasting.. after all the kids are obese, they will do well to participate in that type of activity..

It's about the government instructing our children on what is acceptable behavior, and that is something i will not participate in..

yep.. it's home schooling time..

[wantmoremass]

i believe that it doesn't make sense to force a moment of silence in a public school (for prayer, or fantasizing about girls, or trying to finish your homework or whatever else) - do it on your own time. as a student who was there to learn, i think a moment out would be a waste of time. if that were my school, for me it would have been an excuse for daydreaming.

[Diamonite]

hop on the private school band wagon if you want moment moments of thought or bible block or whatever. i have no problem with religion per say. just aggressive or forced religion.


For sure if some guy in my old high school died. I can respect a moment of silence. Or how about a moment of silence everyday based on a religion the rule makers like. Give me a break.

[Amorphic]

the simple fact to me is that school is a place of learning and that religion has no place in it. School is about learning concrete useful things, something which i think religion has no validity in.

Do i care if someone prays in school? no. but having a manditory prayer time is pointless and is unnecessary.

If i could change anything in the world i would change the way politics and religion are intertwined, it does no one any good.

[RA]

As long as they are just teaching the three R's and not pushing sex ed, alternate lifestyle education and the like I have no problem.

[Tock]

As long as they are just teaching the three R's and not pushing sex ed, alternate lifestyle education and the like I have no problem.

Um, about that . . .
I'd be happy to have schools not discuss that topic, as long as they don't present any sort of lifestyle as being "normal."
By that, I mean, you can't have kids books full of stories about Mom and Dad and sister and brother, and never mention Mom and Mom and sister and brother, or Dad and Dad and sister and brother. Seems to me that if 3% of the population is gay, then 3% of the references to parents ought to reflect that fact.
Not to do that would be akin to eliminating all mention of, say, all black people in school literature, or all Asians, or etc etc etc. IMHO, there's no justification for eliminating all mention of gay parents in school.
Or, for that matter, eliminating any mention of the fact that kids growing up are gonna have a 3% chance of being gay. And it would be tremendously helpful to have information about that available to students. It would sure eliminate a lot of unhappy marriages where gay guys end up marrying women because they didn't know anything about "alternate lifestyles." Those unhappy women would certainly be a lot better off not marrying a closeted gay person, too.

So.

JMHO.

[RA]

Um, about that . . .
I'd be happy to have schools not discuss that topic, as long as they don't present any sort of lifestyle as being "normal."
By that, I mean, you can't have kids books full of stories about Mom and Dad and sister and brother, and never mention Mom and Mom and sister and brother, or Dad and Dad and sister and brother. Seems to me that if 3% of the population is gay, then 3% of the references to parents ought to reflect that fact.
Not to do that would be akin to eliminating all mention of, say, all black people in school literature, or all Asians, or etc etc etc. IMHO, there's no justification for eliminating all mention of gay parents in school.
Or, for that matter, eliminating any mention of the fact that kids growing up are gonna have a 3% chance of being gay. And it would be tremendously helpful to have information about that available to students. It would sure eliminate a lot of unhappy marriages where gay guys end up marrying women because they didn't know anything about "alternate lifestyles." Those unhappy women would certainly be a lot better off not marrying a closeted gay person, too.

So.

JMHO.

You have to be kidding tock. So your going to go through all the books in the public school system and pull out the ones that mention mothers or fathers? Didnt you have a mother and father?

[RA]

Nevermind the fact that all children took the combo of a womans egg and a mans sperm....

Soon as you get your bf pregnant well talk.

[Logan13]

Nevermind the fact that all children took the combo of a womans egg and a mans sperm....

Soon as you get your bf pregnant well talk.

damn!

[Johny-too-small]

I wish my highschool had a "moment to draw naked babes."

[Tock]

The rights of individuals to observe a moment of silence is just as important as the rights of those who do not wish to do so. It is a personal decision and I doubt that these high schoolers were being forced to do it in the first place as I did not read anywhere in that article what would happen, if anything, to a student who did not want to do it.

Seems to me that they are being required to at least be "silent and reflect." Smells to me like a backdoor attempt to put a mandatory time for prayer in school, if not prayer itself. That's nuts -- lots of people stop to think about what they're gonna do for the rest of the day, but they don't "reflect" or "meditate" on what they're gonna do.
If there was no such thing as "prayer," would they have passed a law requiring students to "reflect" on their day's activities? Unlikely.
Ya, smells unconstitutional to me.

Here's an article about the new Illinois law:
http://www.christianpost.com/article...ool_Prayer.htm


Illinois schools are now required to give students a moment of silence at the beginning of the day so that they may pray or reflect after state lawmakers approved the mandate last Thursday.
The House agreed with the Senate in a 74-37 vote to override Gov. Rod Blagojevich's veto of the legislation.
The law, which took effect immediately, reads: “In each public school classroom the teacher in charge shall observe a brief period of silence with the participation of all the pupils therein assembled at the opening of every school day. This period shall not be conducted as a religious exercise but shall be an opportunity for silent prayer or for silent reflection on the anticipated activities of the day.”
While the governor had said in his veto that he believes in the “power of prayer,” he felt the law violated the Constitution’s separation of church and state.
But supporters of the legislation say the intention was not to mandate prayer in schools but instead to benefit students’ well-being by providing a moment of peace in a noisy society.
“This was never about trying to require prayer in the schools," said Rep. Will Davis (D-Homewood), the bill’s chief sponsor. “This is a way for teachers and students to [start] their day off in the right way.”
Davis added that time allocated for reflection could possibly avert tragedies like the recent school shooting in Cleveland, Ohio, where a high school student killed two students and two teachers before turning the gun on himself.
Rep. Monique Davis (D-Chicago) said a moment of silence could allow students the opportunity to enjoy listening to the “rustling of leaves” or the “chirping of a bird.” It would be a break from a “rushed, exciting world in which they live that helps to create the violence,” she added.
Concerned Christian Americans and the Illinois Family Institute, two organizations that backed the legislation, agreed that the silence would help students cope with the everyday stress they may face.
Critics, however, have called the new law unnecessary, pointing to a state law that already allow schools to observe a moment of silence before instruction.
“The principal can say we're going to do it in our school. I know teachers that already do it. Why is it necessary to say you shall?" asked Rep. Bill Black (R-Danville), who rejected the legislation.
According to a 1962 U.S. Supreme Court ruling, public schools are not allowed to lead students in prayer although students can still pray. In 2000, a U.S. District court upheld a Virginia law that required schools to observe “moments of silence” at the beginning of instruction. Eleven states require public schools to hold such moments, while 23 others leave it optional.
Since the 2002 Illinois state law only allows and not require moments of silence, supporters of the mandate argue that some schools and teachers choose not grant them to students.
In Chicago, administrators are not aware of any schools that currently set aside time for silent meditation, according to the Chicago Tribune.
Some critics also expressed concern over the implications the law may have on instruction time or disciplinary actions within the schools. The law does not articulate any penalties for schools that don't hold a moment of silence
Sponsors acknowledged that it may take time to formulate rules to implement it.
Sen. Todd Sieben (R-Geneseo), who voted for the override in the Senate last week, noted that despite the mandate students can choose to spend the time praying or not.
"A moment of silence is whatever you want: silence, reflection, prayer, meditation. There are a lot of things you can do in a moment of silence that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with religion or imposing your religious views on somebody else.”