" Germany moves to ban Scientology"

[Prada]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe....ap/index.html

BERLIN, Germany (AP) -- Germany's top security officials said Friday they consider the goals of the Church of Scientology to be in conflict with the principles of the nation's constitution and will seek to ban the organization.

The interior ministers of the nation's 16 states plan to give the nation's domestic intelligence agency the task of preparing the necessary information to ban the organization, which has been under observation for a decade on allegations that it "threatens the peaceful democratic order" of the country.

The Church of Scientology, in a response sent to CNN, denounced the German proposal, calling it out of step with various international court rulings. Read the Church of Scientology response

The ministers, as well as federal Interior Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble, "consider Scientology to be an organization that is not compatible with the constitution," said Berlin Interior Minister Ehrhart Koerting, who presided over the officials' two-day conference.

Sabine Weber, president of the Church of Scientology in Berlin, said she views the renewed attempt to ban the organization as a reaction to increasing acceptance of Scientologists in several European countries.

"It is very, very clear that the true picture of what Scientology is about is pushing its way through," Weber said. "The interior ministers are clearly reacting to that."

The Scientologists have long battled to end the surveillance, saying it is an abuse of their right to freedom of religion. They point to several lower court rulings in favor of their right to practice in Germany as a religious organization.

The U.S. State Department regularly criticizes Germany in its annual Human Rights Report for the monitoring practice.

The interior ministers gave no specific examples for their decision, but the most recent annual report on extremism compiled by their agencies criticized the organization for disregarding human rights.

"From a number of sources, some of them not available to the public, it has been determined that (the organization) seeks to limit or rescind basic and human rights, such as the right to develop one's personality and the right to be treated equally," the report said.

Earlier this year, the German government initially refused to allow the producers of a movie starring Scientology member Tom Cruise as the most famous anti-Hitler plotter to film at the site where the hero was executed, although it did not expressly state Scientology as its reason. It later allowed the production to go ahead.

The Los Angeles-based Church of Scientology was founded in 1954 by the late science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard. It first set up in Germany in 1970 and officials estimate it counts some 6,000 members in the country.

[Kärnfysikern]

What bs, people should be able to belive and follow any religion no matter how ****ed up it happens to be. Aslong as it isnt hurting anyone.

[Dizz28]

Alright, I don't get this. Germany, the same country that just gave Tom Cruise a "Courage" award for the movie that they wanted to Ban because he's a scientologist...the same movie that they pushed to stop the production from even happening in thier country?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6240312.stm

[Prada]

What bs, people should be able to belive and follow any religion no matter how ****ed up it happens to be. Aslong as it isnt hurting anyone.

Stop trying to defend your religion Kärnfysikern.

Correct people should be able to believe in whatever it is they want to believe as long as it doesnt harm others. However let me ask you a question, should people in Germany be allowed to celebrate the holocaust and deny it? I know its not a religion but I assume you know the laws in Germany in regards to the holocaust. Also you state "Aslong as it isnt hurting anyone." What if I told you, for example and just an example, that scientology was bilking people out of money for their own ulterior motives based on fabricated and fictitious gibberish. Thus these same people having less money and being brainwashed and perhaps not hurting the lives of others but harming their own well being and that of their surroundings. Where is it that you draw the line? Do we let citizens get blackmailed? Or is some intervention needed because the world is filled with idiocy?

Finally.....Kärnfysikern, you are aware what these scientologists preach and the history of their religion?

[Kärnfysikern]

Got me there

Well I am totaly opposed to all laws preventing holocaust denial or that restrict freedom of speech in any other way.

When it comes to ripping people off I dont know. I mean you got fortune tellers, people claiming they can talk to your dead mother, people that claim they can cure disease with their hands. In my eye if someone is stupid enough to fall for it then they got themself to blame Same with religion. Its not worth restricting freedom to protect idiots.

Not realy sure what scientology is about, I just know its got something to do with souls of aliens trapped within us ect? I know they are opposed to all kind of medical treatments ect.

[thegodfather]

Stop trying to defend your religion Kärnfysikern.

Correct people should be able to believe in whatever it is they want to believe as long as it doesnt harm others. However let me ask you a question, should people in Germany be allowed to celebrate the holocaust and deny it? I know its not a religion but I assume you know the laws in Germany in regards to the holocaust. Also you state "Aslong as it isnt hurting anyone." What if I told you, for example and just an example, that scientology was bilking people out of money for their own ulterior motives based on fabricated and fictitious gibberish. Thus these same people having less money and being brainwashed and perhaps not hurting the lives of others but harming their own well being and that of their surroundings. Where is it that you draw the line? Do we let citizens get blackmailed? Or is some intervention needed because the world is filled with idiocy?

Finally.....Kärnfysikern, you are aware what these scientologists preach and the history of their religion?

Please see in bold.... Fabricated and Fictious gibberish? Says who, says you, because you cant prove their ideals. Well, neither can you prove that anything said in the Bible is true. So based on your premise, the Catholic Church has been swindling people out of their money for over a thousand years, lets ban them next.

Additionally. Although the Holocaust was a really tragic and awful event, it should not be ILLEGAL to be of the BELIEF that it never happened. People can believe the the Tooth Fairy exists or doesn't exist, but we dont pass legislation against it because its not "dramatic" enough. Passing legislation to regulate beliefs is going down a very slippery slope, and it fundamentally takes away peoples unalienable rights that they are BORN with.

[***xxx***]

finally! I am already celebrating Scientology

[thegodfather]

finally! I am already celebrating Scientology

Slippery slope....First Scientology, and then some other ideals that are unpopular and someone thinks should be outlawed. Outlawing ideas is DANGEROUS, and it is the first step of many towards total tyranny. If you dont like what they represent, its simple, DONT LISTEN!

[Kärnfysikern]

Slippery slope....First Scientology, and then some other ideals that are unpopular and someone thinks should be outlawed. Outlawing ideas is DANGEROUS, and it is the first step of many towards total tyranny. If you dont like what they represent, its simple, DONT LISTEN!

[***xxx***]

total tyranny? germany is as liberal, as it gets. prolly only sweden and is more liberal. time to get some things going. scientology is a crappy pscho club, that steals money out of labile ppl pockets. and yes, it s worse than the catholic church (pls no comments about the mid evil times )

[Kärnfysikern]

total tyranny? germany is as liberal, as it gets. prolly only sweden and is more liberal. time to get some things going. scientology is a crappy pscho club, that steals money out of labile ppl pockets. and yes, it s worse than the catholic church (pls no comments about the mid evil times )

But how is it any different from fortune tellers, tarot card readers, homeopathy,psychics ect that obviously fool stupid people out of their money. Should the law protect people from their own stupidity? And who determines what is stupid or not?

Id say when it comes to protecting freedom of speech europe isnt all that liberal.

[Prada]

Please see in bold.... Fabricated and Fictious gibberish? Says who, says you, because you cant prove their ideals. Well, neither can you prove that anything said in the Bible is true. So based on your premise, the Catholic Church has been swindling people out of their money for over a thousand years, lets ban them next.

Additionally. Although the Holocaust was a really tragic and awful event, it should not be ILLEGAL to be of the BELIEF that it never happened. People can believe the the Tooth Fairy exists or doesn't exist, but we dont pass legislation against it because its not "dramatic" enough. Passing legislation to regulate beliefs is going down a very slippery slope, and it fundamentally takes away peoples unalienable rights that they are BORN with.

Just remember, I did say "an example and just an example". One might not be able to prove ideals but they cant prove them either. Yes, I totally agree and understand your point as far as the comment on the catholic church. However I shall abstain from making a comment on religion in general.

Yes, it is a dangerous road, yet in Germany it seems that David Irving is persona nongrata and denying the holocaust is illegal, if I recall correctly.

[Prada]

But how is it any different from fortune tellers, tarot card readers, homeopathy,psychics ect that obviously fool stupid people out of their money. Should the law protect people from their own stupidity? And who determines what is stupid or not?

Id say when it comes to protecting freedom of speech europe isnt all that liberal.

Well, I agree that as long as your thoughts dont harm other people,animals, enviroment or surrounding then it should be tolerated. Yet often times thought don't remain just thoughts.

On a side note I remember that recently in Canada there were two issue.
1) A few years ago a Sikh boy carried his ceremonial dagger to school

The total ban infringed on Gurbaj Singh's guarantees of religious freedom under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled 8-0 on Thursday.

2)In the same country a Muslim girl was denied playing soccer with a hijab, which was argued that it was "dangerous".


Kärnfysikern,I dislike calling you that BTW but I remember your reasoning in your PM so I shall respect that, what do you mean that the EU is not all that liberal in protecting freedom of speech? In comparison to other continents?

[Kärnfysikern]

Well, I agree that as long as your thoughts dont harm other people,animals, enviroment or surrounding then it should be tolerated. Yet often times thought don't remain just thoughts.

But when it becomes more than thoughts or speech then we already have laws to deal with that?

Kärnfysikern,I dislike calling you that BTW but I remember your reasoning in your PM so I shall respect that, what do you mean that the EU is not all that liberal in protecting freedom of speech? In comparison to other continents?

Cool

well we have the laws against holocaust denial, not so long ago a high ranking EU beurocrat(cant remember his name) made the suggestion to ban certain internet search words, like "bomb" ect. That such a suggestion can even be made and not imidietly rejected and ridiculed tells me that freedom of speach/thought isnt realy all that important anymore. The entire debate after the muhammed cartoons was also a bit scary, considering how many that was arguing for banning such things.

When it comes to sweden specifialy and not beeing liberal one example is that we have the stricktest drug laws in europe and that isnt very liberal in my eyes, offcourse for some reason liberal nowdays mean socialist and not liberal ?

It seems like individual liberty is constantly put second to what is perceived as best for society.

[Prada]

But when it becomes more than thoughts or speech then we already have laws to deal with that?

Yes we do but take my Sikh student with kirpan example. Now yes Sikhism has been around for centuries but his dagger was tolerated due to religious reasons even though it is against the rule/law of the school board (hence the reason it went to the supreme court).

This is just an extreme example, but what if some religion requires the wearing of a Kalashnikov, religious freedom is to be expected? This is what I mean that thoughts often times don't remain just that.

Cool

well we have the laws against holocaust denial, not so long ago a high ranking EU beurocrat(cant remember his name) made the suggestion to ban certain internet search words, like "bomb" ect. That such a suggestion can even be made and not imidietly rejected and ridiculed tells me that freedom of speach/thought isnt realy all that important anymore. The entire debate after the muhammed cartoons was also a bit scary, considering how many that was arguing for banning such things.

When it comes to sweden specifialy and not beeing liberal one example is that we have the stricktest drug laws in europe and that isnt very liberal in my eyes, offcourse for some reason liberal nowdays mean socialist and not liberal ?

It seems like individual liberty is constantly put second to what is perceived as best for society.

Right, you deem there may be an explanation to this, why that is the case?

[Kärnfysikern]

Yes we do but take my Sikh student with kirpan example. Now yes Sikhism has been around for centuries but his dagger was tolerated due to religious reasons even though it is against the rule/law of the school board (hence the reason it went to the supreme court).?

This is just an extreme example, but what if some religion requires the wearing of a Kalashnikov, religious freedom is to be expected? This is what I mean that thoughts often times don't remain just that.

Well In a school the school sets the rules so I dont think there is a conflict due to religious freedom in that case. Its just like its not allowed to talk in a cell phone during class.

When it comes to the scientologists, what harm do they do except fool people? As far as I know they are just fooling people in the same way as the catholic church has been doing for centuries.

Right, you deem there may be an explanation to this, why that is the case?

Ohh I have no idea, maby no one cares enough anymore and politicians take advantage of that Maby its because left leaning countries thinks less about putting society above the individual? It seems like what happens on a EU level is totaly ignored by europeans in general, or maby its just us swedes that doesnt care?

[Prada]

Well In a school the school sets the rules so I dont think there is a conflict due to religious freedom in that case. Its just like its not allowed to talk in a cell phone during class.

Well it impedes on religious freedom and the right to "practice" their religion. The argument was that it was more a symbolic item rather then an arm. Now Im not well acquainted with Sikhism but I believe that it is actually a requirement in their religion, just like not cutting their hair. Yet a practice, again, that was more practiced in the past.

When it comes to the scientologists, what harm do they do except fool people? As far as I know they are just fooling people in the same way as the catholic church has been doing for centuries.

As much as I would love to...
Im not going there.

Ohh I have no idea, maby no one cares enough anymore and politicians take advantage of that Maby its because left leaning countries thinks less about putting society above the individual? It seems like what happens on a EU level is totaly ignored by europeans in general, or maby its just us swedes that doesnt care?

I think its not that they dont care, citizens, but they see that their displeasure expressed leads to nothing. Gas prices, Iraq war and so on, many people democratically against it but the government ignores their concern. So its the "why bother" syndrome.

[kfrost06]

When it comes to the scientologists, what harm do they do except fool people? As far as I know they are just fooling people in the same way as the catholic church has been doing for centuries.

How so? With their soup kitchens? there adpotion agencies? homeless shelters? their doctors that travel to the poorest coutries to treat the sick? Their stand against war? opening schools to educate the poor? where's the tom foolery? or are you just another bigot that can stand anyone that has a belief system when you don't? what kinda of work does your group do for society, oh I know you just bitch and moan about others.

[kfrost06]

when the government is able to take someone elses right to practice religion or not to practice religion then be scared because it's only a matter of time be for they come after you and your beliefs. We must take a stand, espicially with Germany when it comes to the government telling what your allowed to believe!

[Act of God]

How so? With their soup kitchens? there adpotion agencies? homeless shelters? their doctors that travel to the poorest coutries to treat the sick? Their stand against war? opening schools to educate the poor? where's the tom foolery? or are you just another bigot that can stand anyone that has a belief system when you don't? what kinda of work does your group do for society, oh I know you just bitch and moan about others.

Quoted for the Truth

I don't recall seeing these things being carried out by ANY other religions, reaching out to people of all creeds and colors.

[thegodfather]

How so? With their soup kitchens? there adpotion agencies? homeless shelters? their doctors that travel to the poorest coutries to treat the sick? Their stand against war? opening schools to educate the poor? where's the tom foolery? or are you just another bigot that can stand anyone that has a belief system when you don't? what kinda of work does your group do for society, oh I know you just bitch and moan about others.

Kärnfysikern's group is responsible for every modern piece of technology that you take for granted everyday. His group is responsible for many technologies which at some point have probably SAVED YOUR LIFE. I'd say thats equally as important as the work that the Catholics do, if not more so. Because without Karnfysikern's they would have no knowledge of how to build homeless shelters, and have no technology or medicines for which to treat the sick. So you see, their glorifying work is really reliant on people jsut like Karnfysikern to keep discovering the technology that makes it possible for people to help others. So, I'd say the amount of dedication that he puts into his studies of science, so that one day he can invent something that you will probably benefit from, is a lot more than "bitching and moaning" about others. Him and I do have a belief system, it however includes math and observable data that can be put to good use, and does not include fanciful stories written in a book thats 4000 years old and has no possible way to be authenticated. In any case, I completely respect your right to believe and put faith in such things, as long as you completely respect my right to put faith in the sciences that I believe in... Thanks...

[kfrost06]

Kärnfysikern's group is responsible for every modern piece of technology that you take for granted everyday. His group is responsible for many technologies which at some point have probably SAVED YOUR LIFE. I'd say thats equally as important as the work that the Catholics do, if not more so. Because without Karnfysikern's they would have no knowledge of how to build homeless shelters, and have no technology or medicines for which to treat the sick. So you see, their glorifying work is really reliant on people jsut like Karnfysikern to keep discovering the technology that makes it possible for people to help others. So, I'd say the amount of dedication that he puts into his studies of science, so that one day he can invent something that you will probably benefit from, is a lot more than "bitching and moaning" about others. Him and I do have a belief system, it however includes math and observable data that can be put to good use, and does not include fanciful stories written in a book thats 4000 years old and has no possible way to be authenticated. In any case, I completely respect your right to believe and put faith in such things, as long as you completely respect my right to put faith in the sciences that I believe in... Thanks...

Can you please inform me of these athiest scientist you speak of? You see, being a PhD chemist and catholic I'd have to disagree. Einstien, Newton, Galileo were are very religious. But maybe from your post one can infer that it was the athiest that discovered how to build houses because everyone knows Christians, Jews, and Muslims are far to dumb to think on their own.

Seriously, give names of the anti-religious scientist that have propelled us to the future....


still waiting.....




anytime....

o.k. just get angry and call us names, it suits you better, with your high degree of intelligence and all

[kfrost06]

Einstien quotes:

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

"I was barked at by numerous dogs who are earning their food guarding ignorance and superstition for the benefit of those who profit from it. Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is of the same kind as the intolerance of the religious fanatics and comes from the same source. They are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional "opium of the people"—cannot bear the music of the spheres. The Wonder of nature does not become smaller because one cannot measure it by the standards of human moral and human aims."


but we all Know what dumbarse he was for letting religion get in his way of thinking

[kfrost06]

A few Catholics that have progressed civilization

Nicolaus Copernicus
Galileo Galilei accurately described heliocentric solar system
Louis Pasteur discovered pasteurization
Christopher Columbus discovered America
Johann Gutenberg developed movable type
Antoine Laurent Lavoisier father of modern chemistry
William Shakespeare
Guglielmo Marconi invented the radio
Alexander Fleming penicillin
Ludwig van Beethoven music
Michelangelo art
Gregor Mendel genetics
Enrico Fermi initiated the atomic age
Vasco da Gama explorer


So any Aethiest want to tell me about the evil Church holding back science and civilization??? or how about the aethist that have propelled us to the future, Hitler? Stalin? anyone?

[Kärnfysikern]

How so? With their soup kitchens? there adpotion agencies? homeless shelters? their doctors that travel to the poorest coutries to treat the sick? Their stand against war? opening schools to educate the poor? where's the tom foolery? or are you just another bigot that can stand anyone that has a belief system when you don't? what kinda of work does your group do for society, oh I know you just bitch and moan about others.

Well all what you just said is totaly negated by their opposition to condoms in africa and the way they opressed europe during the dark ages. Name one single group that has hindered scientific progress more than the catholic church?

Ohh and the idea that you can just pay and get rid of all sins is kind of ridicilous and definetly foolish.

BTW I DEFEND peoples right to belive in whatever they want, if you had bothered to read what I wrote you would have seen that. I defend peoples right to belive in scientology, christianity or any other religion. If I couldnt stand it I would be the first one to applaud germanys attempts to ban scientiology

Kärnfysikern's group is responsible for every modern piece of technology that you take for granted everyday. His group is responsible for many technologies which at some point have probably SAVED YOUR LIFE. I'd say thats equally as important as the work that the Catholics do, if not more so. Because without Karnfysikern's they would have no knowledge of how to build homeless shelters, and have no technology or medicines for which to treat the sick. So you see, their glorifying work is really reliant on people jsut like Karnfysikern to keep discovering the technology that makes it possible for people to help others. So, I'd say the amount of dedication that he puts into his studies of science, so that one day he can invent something that you will probably benefit from, is a lot more than "bitching and moaning" about others. Him and I do have a belief system, it however includes math and observable data that can be put to good use, and does not include fanciful stories written in a book thats 4000 years old and has no possible way to be authenticated. In any case, I completely respect your right to believe and put faith in such things, as long as you completely respect my right to put faith in the sciences that I believe in... Thanks...

Well said and thanks

Can you please inform me of these athiest scientist you speak of? You see, being a PhD chemist and catholic I'd have to disagree. Einstien, Newton, Galileo were are very religious. But maybe from your post one can infer that it was the athiest that discovered how to build houses because everyone knows Christians, Jews, and Muslims are far to dumb to think on their own.

Seriously, give names of the anti-religious scientist that have propelled us to the future....


still waiting.....

anytime....

o.k. just get angry and call us names, it suits you better, with your high degree of intelligence and all

Einsteins own words

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.


Then offcourse we have Linus Pauling, Oppenheimer, Darwin, Steven Weinberg, Arthur C. Clarke, Paul Dirac, Richard Feynman, Frederic Joliot-Curie, James Watson, Chandrasekhar, Paul D. Boyer, Marie Curie etc ect ect.

I would almost be willing to be that there are more nobel laureates that are atheist/agnostic than religions, but it would be a pain in the ass to find out.

[Kärnfysikern]

A few Catholics that have progressed civilization

Nicolaus Copernicus
Galileo Galilei accurately described heliocentric solar system
Louis Pasteur discovered pasteurization
Christopher Columbus discovered America
Johann Gutenberg developed movable type
Antoine Laurent Lavoisier father of modern chemistry
William Shakespeare
Guglielmo Marconi invented the radio
Alexander Fleming penicillin
Ludwig van Beethoven music
Michelangelo art
Gregor Mendel genetics
Enrico Fermi initiated the atomic age
Vasco da Gama explorer


So any Aethiest want to tell me about the evil Church holding back science and civilization??? or how about the aethist that have propelled us to the future, Hitler? Stalin? anyone?

How many of those where beliving catholics and how many where just born by catholic parents? I have never before read anywhere that Fermi was religious.

[Logan13]

Quoted for the Truth

I don't recall seeing these things being carried out by ANY other religions, reaching out to people of all creeds and colors.

Amen!

[kfrost06]

How many of those where beliving catholics and how many where just born by catholic parents? I have never before read anywhere that Fermi was religious.

and how many more would be on the list but were aborted by non-religious parents?

[Logan13]

and how many more would be on the list but were aborted by non-religious parents?

damn.......!

[kfrost06]

Well all what you just said is totaly negated by their opposition to condoms in africa and the way they opressed europe during the dark ages. Name one single group that has hindered scientific progress more than the catholic church?

Ohh and the idea that you can just pay and get rid of all sins is kind of ridicilous and definetly foolish.

BTW I DEFEND peoples right to belive in whatever they want, if you had bothered to read what I wrote you would have seen that. I defend peoples right to belive in scientology, christianity or any other religion. If I couldnt stand it I would be the first one to applaud germanys attempts to ban scientiology







Well said and thanks





Einsteins own words

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.


Then offcourse we have Linus Pauling, Oppenheimer, Darwin, Steven Weinberg, Arthur C. Clarke, Paul Dirac, Richard Feynman, Frederic Joliot-Curie, James Watson, Chandrasekhar, Paul D. Boyer, Marie Curie etc ect ect.

I would almost be willing to be that there are more nobel laureates that are atheist/agnostic than religions, but it would be a pain in the ass to find out.

Did you just randomly pick scientist names? Ever heard of the Trinity Site? It's where Oppenheimer watched the first Atomic bomb which he developed go off. How did it get the name "the Trinity Site"? Oppenhiemer named it after The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit because the awesomeness of the detonation reminded him of the Trinity.

Darwin was always insistent that he was agnostic and had "never been an atheist". He became agnositc after his daughter died but later became active in his Church. Oh he also study theology in order to become a cleryman.

[kfrost06]

Einstien:

"I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."

"I am convinced that He (God) does not play dice."

"God is subtle but he is not malicious."

To say Einstien was aethist is off the wall, please look it up before you try to use him in your arguements.

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

oh and one more awesome Einstien quote, "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

[thegodfather]

Can you please inform me of these athiest scientist you speak of? You see, being a PhD chemist and catholic I'd have to disagree. Einstien, Newton, Galileo were are very religious. But maybe from your post one can infer that it was the athiest that discovered how to build houses because everyone knows Christians, Jews, and Muslims are far to dumb to think on their own.

Seriously, give names of the anti-religious scientist that have propelled us to the future....


still waiting.....




anytime....

o.k. just get angry and call us names, it suits you better, with your high degree of intelligence and all

You've blatantly distorted what I was trying to say by interpreting it way too literally. I was not specifically talking about "building houses," more of just an example that there are a lot of technologies we take for granted today which are based on science, and many of those scientists are not religious. I do not "not believe in God," I just do not believe in organized religion, or that any one specific religion is the "true religion" as they all claim to be, and prior to the bible there were many polytheistic societies, and it does not make sense that these would pre-date the "true religion" and the "true God." I believe in a creator, or a creating force, whether that creator or force actually believes himself a "God" or uses the name "Jehovah" (remember that God is a title and not a name, according to the bible God's name is Jehovah." Anyway, the more advanced my studies of science become, I dont really find it logical to deny a "design" or a force of creation behind it. The details of such is what I dispute and chose not to put faith in.

[thegodfather]

and to add a post script to my response...I believe that "organized religion" has been the root cause of more death and suffering in this world, than any other cause.

[Kärnfysikern]

To say Einstien was aethist is off the wall, please look it up before you try to use him in your arguements.

I could say the same thing to you. Einstein did not belive in a personal god, when he said "god" it sees it was more like saying "nature". The quote I gave say it all.

By the way, I never claimed he was a atheist. My claim is simply that he did not belive in any organised religion.

and how many more would be on the list but were aborted by non-religious parents?

and how many angels can stand on the head of a pin? How many brilliant scientists has been prevented from beeing born because of all the countless of wars waged?

Did you just randomly pick scientist names? Ever heard of the Trinity Site? It's where Oppenheimer watched the first Atomic bomb which he developed go off. How did it get the name "the Trinity Site"? Oppenhiemer named it after The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit because the awesomeness of the detonation reminded him of the Trinity.

And oppenheimer quoted a line from the Bhagavad-Gita when the bomb exploded at the trinity site. The now famous "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds". Would that make him a Hindu?

BTW pic up richard rhodes "the making of the atomic bomb"(probably the best non fiction ever written btw!). Oppenheimer hardly knew himself why he named it trinity. He could not give a stranger answere to Groves when Groves asked, only that he had poetry by John Donne in his mind.

Darwin was always insistent that he was agnostic and had "never been an atheist". He became agnositc after his daughter died but later became active in his Church. Oh he also study theology in order to become a cleryman.

Well the difference betwen agnostic and atheist isnt all that large. One say he doesnt know if there is a god and the other say that the existance of god seems implausible.

[Kärnfysikern]

Well it impedes on religious freedom and the right to "practice" their religion. The argument was that it was more a symbolic item rather then an arm. Now Im not well acquainted with Sikhism but I believe that it is actually a requirement in their religion, just like not cutting their hair. Yet a practice, again, that was more practiced in the past.

I guess some part of comon sense has to be applied to every situation. Religious freedom can not be more important than the regular laws or the rules of the specific school/hospital/company/office.

As much as I would love to...
Im not going there.

Fair enough

I think its not that they dont care, citizens, but they see that their displeasure expressed leads to nothing. Gas prices, Iraq war and so on, many people democratically against it but the government ignores their concern. So its the "why bother" syndrome.

I guess thats especialy true for what goes on on a EU level, the chanse of having any influence on Brussels is probably almost zero. EU could be something great, but right now its just a playing ground for the bigwigs.

[Kärnfysikern]

when the government is able to take someone elses right to practice religion or not to practice religion then be scared because it's only a matter of time be for they come after you and your beliefs. We must take a stand, espicially with Germany when it comes to the government telling what your allowed to believe!

I missed this post earlier, I 100% agree with it.

[Logan13]

and to add a post script to my response...I believe that "organized religion" has been the root cause of more death and suffering in this world, than any other cause.

actually, the lack of humanity and tolerance is to blame..........

[Kärnfysikern]

Everytime a group of people have fooled themself into thinking they can dictate how others should live tragedy has followed. Doesnt matter if its communist china or soviet, catholic church during the dark ages, islamism in the middle east, nazis in germany ect. Same shit and same result.

[Amorphic]

Everytime a group of people have fooled themself into thinking they can dictate how others should live tragedy has followed. Doesnt matter if its communist china or soviet, catholic church during the dark ages, islamism in the middle east, nazis in germany ect. Same shit and same result.

yep, exactly

[alphaman]

huh... so religion is fair game now?

lemme quote a few bible verses and watch how fast this puppy gets locked!!