Russian tanks enter South Ossetia

[Flagg]

Quote:
Russian tanks have entered Georgia's breakaway region of South Ossetia, says Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili.
Georgia has been fighting separatists with ties to Russia in order to regain control of the province, which has had de facto independence since the 1990s.

Russian troops in the South Ossetian capital said their artillery had begun firing at Georgian forces, Russian news agencies reported.

Russia's president earlier promised to defend his citizens in South Ossetia.

Moscow's defence ministry said more than 10 of its peacekeeping troops in South Ossetia had been killed and 30 wounded in the Georgian offensive. At least 15 civilians are also reported dead.

'Clear intrusion'

Amid international calls for restraint, Georgia's president said 150 Russian tanks and other vehicles had entered South Ossetia.

He told CNN: "Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory."

Mr Saakashvili, who has called on reservists to sign up for duty, said: "This is a clear intrusion on another country's territory.

"We have Russian tanks on our territory, jets on our territory in broad daylight," Reuters new agency quoted him as saying.

Later, Moscow's foreign ministry told media that Russian tanks had reached the northern outskirts of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.

The Georgian interior ministry said Russian jets had killed three Georgian soldiers at an airbase outside the capital, Tbilisi, during a bombing raid on Friday, Reuters news agency reported.

Russia denied any of its fighters had entered its neighbour's airspace.

Moscow's defence ministry said reinforcements for Russian peacekeepers had been sent to South Ossetia "to help end bloodshed".

Amid reports of Russian deaths, President Dmitry Medvedev said: "I must protect the life and dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are," Interfax news agency reported.

"We will not allow their deaths to go unpunished. Those responsible will receive a deserved punishment."

'Ethnic cleansing'

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Moscow was receiving reports that villages in South Ossetia were being ethnically cleansed.
\
Mr Lavrov added in televised remarks: "The number of refugees is growing. A humanitarian crisis is looming."

Russia said it would cut all air links with Georgia from midnight on Friday.

Meanwhile Interfax quoted South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity as saying there were "hundreds of dead civilians" in Tskhinvali.

Witnesses said the regional capital was devastated.

Lyudmila Ostayeva, 50, told AP news agency: "I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars. It's impossible to count them now. There is hardly a single building left undamaged."

US President George W Bush spoke with Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin about the crisis while they attended the Beijing Olympics.

Later, the US voiced support for Georgia's territorial integrity and its state department said it would send an envoy to the region.

Nato said it was seriously concerned about the situation, while German Chancellor Angela Merkel called on all sides to show restraint.

The European security organisation, the OSCE, warned that the fighting risked escalating into a full-scale war.

Georgian Foreign Minister Ekaterine Tkeshelashvili told the BBC it wanted to ensure that any civilians who wanted to leave the conflict zone could do so safely.

International Red Cross spokeswoman Anna Nelson said it had received reports that hospitals in Tskhinvali were having trouble coping with the influx of casualties and ambulances were having trouble reaching the injured.

Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze said Georgia had simply run out of patience with attacks by separatist militias in recent days and had had to move in to restore peace in South Ossetia.

Truce plea

Georgia accuses Russia of arming the separatists. Moscow denies the claim.

Russia earlier called an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council to respond to the crisis, but members failed to agree on a Russian statement calling on both sides to renounce the use of force.

The BBC's James Rodgers in Moscow says Russia has always said it supports the territorial integrity of Georgia but also that it would defend its citizens. Many South Ossetians hold Russian passports.

Hundreds of fighters from Russia and Georgia's other breakaway region of Abkhazia were reportedly heading to aid the separatist troops.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7548715.stm


What does everyone think of this? Georgia want the West to do something about this. If we do, I can only see bad things coming from this.

[Kärnfysikern]

It would be hypocritical if the west stand against this after we supported Kosovo independence.

[Flagg]

It's hard to "take sides" as I don't know much about the situation, but I keep hearing things like "ethnic cleansing" being banded about, 1000's of dead civilians etcetera..

If Russia are doing this to legitimitely help the people of Ossetia who are 90% Russian I believe, then I guess it's no1's business but theres, but I really hope Putin isn't trying to goad the West.

[Kärnfysikern]

Yeah seems impossible to get the straight story on this. Its interesting to compare russian and western newssites about this, totaly reversed stories.

[Prada]

Its a precarious situation. The US has already stated for a halt of the excursion. Then again I really dont think Putin gives a rats ass what the US has to say.

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Russia...d_in_0809.html

[thegodfather]

Lol Russia should respect Georgia's sovereignty the same way that we respected Iraq's...

[MuscleScience]

What pisses me off about Russia is US tax payers are paying for the security of Russian nuclear weapons because they can not afford to secure and dismantle their nukes. Yet they can afford to develope next generation ICBM's and wage war on a breakaway province. Plus with there new found wealth from oil and gas why cant they secure there own installations.

[Kärnfysikern]

What pisses me off about Russia is US tax payers are paying for the security of Russian nuclear weapons because they can not afford to secure and dismantle their nukes. Yet they can afford to develope next generation ICBM's and wage war on a breakaway province. Plus with there new found wealth from oil and gas why cant they secure there own installations.

You started paying for it back when russia was just starting to recover from the fall of the soviet union. Nowdays russia surely has enough money, but if you are stupid enough to keep paying then I dont se why they should stop recieving No one ever turnes down money.

On the other hand, america has got plenty of dirt cheap uranium from russia from the megatons to megawatts program. So a quite large fraction of your electricity comes from dismantled russian nukes, that evens it out a bit.

[MuscleScience]

You started paying for it back when russia was just starting to recover from the fall of the soviet union. Nowdays russia surely has enough money, but if you are stupid enough to keep paying then I dont se why they should stop recieving No one ever turnes down money.

On the other hand, america has got plenty of dirt cheap uranium from russia from the megatons to megawatts program. So a quite large fraction of your electricity comes from dismantled russian nukes, that evens it out a bit.

Very true, I am not sure how much it takes to refine uranium but I guess weapons grade is abouts as good as you can get for our reactors....LOL

[gixxerboy1]

Lol Russia should respect Georgia's sovereignty the same way that we respected Iraq's...

lol. Our propaganda news here is ridiculous with its spin.

Russia has had peace keeping troops there since the 90's. Georgia sent more troops to try and gain more power in the territory. So Russia responded.

I love how we supported Croatia gaining its independence. But we don't support south ossetia.

Also like godfather said. Everyone is complaining how Russia sent troops into a sovereign nation. At least Russia was defending its civilians that live there. They have alot more legitimate reason then we did.

[Flagg]

lol. Our propaganda news here is ridiculous with its spin.

Russia has had peace keeping troops there since the 90's. Georgia sent more troops to try and gain more power in the territory. So Russia responded.

I love how we supported Croatia gaining its independence. But we don't support south ossetia.

Also like godfather said. Everyone is complaining how Russia sent troops into a sovereign nation. At least Russia was defending its civilians that live there. They have alot more legitimate reason then we did.

The more I read about Georgia, the more I don't like the place. Russia is accussing Georgia of ethnic cleansing and trying to drag other nations into their "bloody soap opera" as Putin is quoted as saying. However, im not happy with Russia "accidently" bombing civilian sites in Goring. Georgia is also accussing Russia or trying to bomb their oil pipe that is linked to Turkey. Im also hearing that the reason for this attack is because Russia is not happy with Georgia and her ties with the EU and the West.

I still don't know who is in the wrong...I guess it's a case of "watch this space".

[gixxerboy1]

The more I read about Georgia, the more I don't like the place. Russia is accussing Georgia of ethnic cleansing and trying to drag other nations into their "bloody soap opera" as Putin is quoted as saying. However, im not happy with Russia "accidently" bombing civilian sites in Goring. Georgia is also accussing Russia or trying to bomb their oil pipe that is linked to Turkey. Im also hearing that the reason for this attack is because Russia is not happy with Georgia and her ties with the EU and the West.

I still don't know who is in the wrong...I guess it's a case of "watch this space".

I do agree both sides arent perfect. But i honestly believe Georgia started this attack.

I never got an answer out of my wife but she has always hated Georgians.

[Flagg]

I do agree both sides arent perfect. But i honestly believe Georgia started this attack.

I never got an answer out of my wife but she has always hated Georgians.

Well Georgia have backed down, but Russia are continuing to bomb all of Georgia. Russia are ignoring everyone who are pleading with Russia to cease fire. Russia are saying it is because there are still Georgian soldiers in Ossetia. I dunno, it's starting to look like over-kill now with Putin desperately trynna make a point to the world. He reminds me of some kid in a playground, kicking and screaming in his sandbox and wanting everyone to notice him.

[gixxerboy1]

Well Georgia have backed down, but Russia are continuing to bomb all of Georgia. Russia are ignoring everyone who are pleading with Russia to cease fire. Russia are saying it is because there are still Georgian soldiers in Ossetia. I dunno, it's starting to look like over-kill now with Putin desperately trynna make a point to the world. He reminds me of some kid in a playground, kicking and screaming in his sandbox and wanting everyone to notice him.

I agree that Russia is probably going to far. But its funny how the news is putting a spin on it. they keep saying it democratic Georgia and how its wrong to invade their sovereignty. Yet it was ok to invade Iraq since its a dictatorship? Why don't we support south ossetia? They want freedom from Georgia. Oh because they are aligned with Russia and dont want our idea of whats perfect.

[Kärnfysikern]

Russia orders halt

http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-G...68040420080812

By Oleg Shchedrov and Margarita Antidze

MOSCOW/TBILISI (Reuters) - Russian President Dmitry Medvedev ordered a halt to military operations in Georgia on Tuesday but Tbilisi cast doubt on the announcement, saying Moscow was still bombing towns and villages.

The announcement coincided with the visit of French president Nicolas Sarkozy to Moscow on an EU peace mission and seemed intended to help international efforts to negotiate a lasting truce.

Sarkozy said Russia and Georgia, who have been fighting since last Thursday, had not yet agreed a peace deal, adding: "We don't yet have peace. But we have a provisional cessation of hostilities. And everyone should be aware that this is considerable progress. There is still much work to be done....What we want is to secure the best result."

In a first U.S. reaction, Washington's envoy to the region, Matthew Bryza, termed the Russian move "extremely positive".

The conflict over the tiny separatist province of South Ossetia has spooked markets and rattled the West. It began when Georgia tried to retake the pro-Russian region last week, provoking a massive counter-offensive from Moscow.

Using language redolent of his mentor Vladimir Putin, Medvedev criticized Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili on Tuesday as a "lunatic". Saakashvili had promised voters he would win back South Ossetia and a second separatist area, Abkhazia.

"You know, lunatics' difference from other people is that when they smell blood it is very difficult to stop them. So you have to use surgery," Medvedev told a news conference.

Georgians saw it differently, with a huge crowd outside the parliament building in Tbilisi hailing Saakashvili as a hero for defending his country against aggression from Moscow. Continued...

[Flagg]

Georgia should just leave Ossetia alone now. From what I gather, 90% of the population is Russian anyways and want absolutely no part of Georgia.

If Georgia are as "democratic" as they claim to be, they should respect what the citizens of Ossetia want and get about trynna impress the EU and UN.

[gixxerboy1]

Georgia should just leave Ossetia alone now. From what I gather, 90% of the population is Russian anyways and want absolutely no part of Georgia.

If Georgia are as "democratic" as they claim to be, they should respect what the citizens of Ossetia want and get about trynna impress the EU and UN.

I agree and i dont think they are going to have a choice in the matter. I have an long lasting agreement with Russia is gonig to demand that

[Panzerfaust]

LMAO!

I heard that stupid bitch Cunilingus Rice say this morning "We are taking this very seriously and want it to be known that we support Georgia's territory" bla bla bla

Goddamn America thinking they can tell everyone what the **** to do, I hope Russia and Putin tell that stupid bitch to shut the **** up and Bush too.

I guess its only right if America invades and installs governments around the world.

LMAO @ the hypocrisy.

[thegodfather]

LMAO!

I heard that stupid bitch Cunilingus Rice say this morning "We are taking this very seriously and want it to be known that we support Georgia's territory" bla bla bla

Goddamn America thinking they can tell everyone what the **** to do, I hope Russia and Putin tell that stupid bitch to shut the **** up and Bush too.

I guess its only right if America invades and installs governments around the world.

LMAO @ the hypocrisy.

If you dont like it here, why dont you leave...

I hope you get sent to Gitmo you unpatriotic traitor.. I bet you're a terrorist aren't you. Your part of the blame America first crowd! God bless King Bush.

[spywizard]

Quote:
Russian tanks have entered Georgia's breakaway region of South Ossetia, says Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili.
Georgia has been fighting separatists with ties to Russia in order to regain control of the province, which has had de facto independence since the 1990s.

Russian troops in the South Ossetian capital said their artillery had begun firing at Georgian forces, Russian news agencies reported.

Russia's president earlier promised to defend his citizens in South Ossetia.

Moscow's defence ministry said more than 10 of its peacekeeping troops in South Ossetia had been killed and 30 wounded in the Georgian offensive. At least 15 civilians are also reported dead.

'Clear intrusion'

Amid international calls for restraint, Georgia's president said 150 Russian tanks and other vehicles had entered South Ossetia.

He told CNN: "Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory."

Mr Saakashvili, who has called on reservists to sign up for duty, said: "This is a clear intrusion on another country's territory.

"We have Russian tanks on our territory, jets on our territory in broad daylight," Reuters new agency quoted him as saying.

Later, Moscow's foreign ministry told media that Russian tanks had reached the northern outskirts of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.

The Georgian interior ministry said Russian jets had killed three Georgian soldiers at an airbase outside the capital, Tbilisi, during a bombing raid on Friday, Reuters news agency reported.

Russia denied any of its fighters had entered its neighbour's airspace.

Moscow's defence ministry said reinforcements for Russian peacekeepers had been sent to South Ossetia "to help end bloodshed".

Amid reports of Russian deaths, President Dmitry Medvedev said: "I must protect the life and dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are," Interfax news agency reported.

"We will not allow their deaths to go unpunished. Those responsible will receive a deserved punishment."

'Ethnic cleansing'

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Moscow was receiving reports that villages in South Ossetia were being ethnically cleansed.
\
Mr Lavrov added in televised remarks: "The number of refugees is growing. A humanitarian crisis is looming."

Russia said it would cut all air links with Georgia from midnight on Friday.

Meanwhile Interfax quoted South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity as saying there were "hundreds of dead civilians" in Tskhinvali.

Witnesses said the regional capital was devastated.

Lyudmila Ostayeva, 50, told AP news agency: "I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars. It's impossible to count them now. There is hardly a single building left undamaged."

US President George W Bush spoke with Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin about the crisis while they attended the Beijing Olympics.

Later, the US voiced support for Georgia's territorial integrity and its state department said it would send an envoy to the region.

Nato said it was seriously concerned about the situation, while German Chancellor Angela Merkel called on all sides to show restraint.

The European security organisation, the OSCE, warned that the fighting risked escalating into a full-scale war.

Georgian Foreign Minister Ekaterine Tkeshelashvili told the BBC it wanted to ensure that any civilians who wanted to leave the conflict zone could do so safely.

International Red Cross spokeswoman Anna Nelson said it had received reports that hospitals in Tskhinvali were having trouble coping with the influx of casualties and ambulances were having trouble reaching the injured.

Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze said Georgia had simply run out of patience with attacks by separatist militias in recent days and had had to move in to restore peace in South Ossetia.

Truce plea

Georgia accuses Russia of arming the separatists. Moscow denies the claim.

Russia earlier called an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council to respond to the crisis, but members failed to agree on a Russian statement calling on both sides to renounce the use of force.

The BBC's James Rodgers in Moscow says Russia has always said it supports the territorial integrity of Georgia but also that it would defend its citizens. Many South Ossetians hold Russian passports.

Hundreds of fighters from Russia and Georgia's other breakaway region of Abkhazia were reportedly heading to aid the separatist troops.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7548715.stm


What does everyone think of this? Georgia want the West to do something about this. If we do, I can only see bad things coming from this.

why would they expect us to do anything??? we have no interests in that country, no viable military, nor economic reason to.. tell them to take it up with the United Nations, in 2-3 years they may issue an opinion..

[MuscleSportMag]

This thing could get very ugly and become a much larger scale incident. There seems to be a whisper of the Cold War going on again of late, and this conflict is only making it rear its ugly head again.

[Kärnfysikern]

why would they expect us to do anything??? we have no interests in that country, no viable military, nor economic reason to.. tell them to take it up with the United Nations, in 2-3 years they may issue an opinion..

The us and israel has been arming Georgia and preparing them to join NATO. This is probably a little message from russia to the other countries in the region contemplating a NATO membership.

It wouldnt suprise me if Saakashvili acctually was stupid enough to think NATO would save his ass after he started shelling south Ossetia.

[Lexed]

real truth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ

[Jatakat]

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...ussia.Georgia/

Georgia president signs cease-fire with Russia

Let's see how long this lasts.

[g0dsend]

Heres a good little site to keep updated on this topic.

http://georgia-vs-russia.com/

[gixxerboy1]

real truth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ

georgia ****ed with the bull and got the horns

[Flagg]

Georgia should be thanking Nicolas Sarkozy as I hear he was instrumental in the Cease Fire and went to Russia personally to talk to Putin. You know, the more i learn about the French President the more I like the guy. People have often mocked the french, but they still have the cheapest electricity in Europe and the cleanest air, largely in part to Nuclear power. The French have a no nonsense approach to Hate Speaches (Islamic clerics spouting racial hatred are often deported) and they are the only other country other than the UK that have nukes, effectively "protecting" Europe.
Condoliza Rice met with Sarkozy on Thursday, and how much was she kissing his butt, especially after her rant at France back in 2003 when France, Germany and Russia refused to support the war in Iraq. Her words: "Punish France, ignore Germany and forgive Russia" (source: Independent Newspaper: Friday addition, Aug 15th 08)
What a difference a war makes.

[Flagg]

This whole thing will also give the US the reason it needs to put its ABM missle defence system in European countries.

[Panzerfaust]

Russia is also pissed that the US is wanting to setup a missle defense system in Poland. Poland has agreed but the Russians are pissed and ****ing rightfully so.

I mean, how would the US react to Russia placing missles lets say...ummmm...in Cuba? Oh wait.....they did and we had the "Cuban Missle Crisis"....

As long as America wants to do soemthing its ok....just look at the ****ing hypocrisy. It's disturbing.

[gixxerboy1]

Russia is also pissed that the US is wanting to setup a missle defense system in Poland. Poland has agreed but the Russians are pissed and ****ing rightfully so.

I mean, how would the US react to Russia placing missles lets say...ummmm...in Cuba? Oh wait.....they did and we had the "Cuban Missle Crisis"....

As long as America wants to do soemthing its ok....just look at the ****ing hypocrisy. It's disturbing.

I like Bush and Rice making coments on how you can't just invade a soviern nation in the 21st century

[Flagg]

Russia is also pissed that the US is wanting to setup a missle defense system in Poland. Poland has agreed but the Russians are pissed and ****ing rightfully so.

I mean, how would the US react to Russia placing missles lets say...ummmm...in Cuba? Oh wait.....they did and we had the "Cuban Missle Crisis"....

As long as America wants to do soemthing its ok....just look at the ****ing hypocrisy. It's disturbing.

It will be done in the "interests of democracy because of Russias aggressive stance in Georgia". I bet the Bush administration were over the moon when they heard what Russia had done.
Personally I can't believe ANY country in Europe would agree to have such a system set up in their nation, the repercussions alone should be a deterant.

[Pooks]

It will be done in the "interests of democracy because of Russias aggressive stance in Georgia". I bet the Bush administration were over the moon when they heard what Russia had done.
Personally I can't believe ANY country in Europe would agree to have such a system set up in their nation, the repercussions alone should be a deterant.

I agree!! no offense to any pollacks but.. seriously.. now you'll be the first nation to get nuked... Any nation will want to eliminate the system, before they start ramming nukes down NATO's throat.

[Kärnfysikern]

It will be done in the "interests of democracy because of Russias aggressive stance in Georgia". I bet the Bush administration were over the moon when they heard what Russia had done.
Personally I can't believe ANY country in Europe would agree to have such a system set up in their nation, the repercussions alone should be a deterant.

I doubt Russia will allow such a system to be built. If the US doesnt back down who knows how far it will go. Cuba missile crisis reversed. What makes it worse is that the whole missile shiled is useless anyway.

[g0dsend]

Its not like 10 interceptors can withhold the Russian fleet of nukes. I mean look at it this way, instead of destroying the United States 100 times over, they have to settle with 99 times.

Yeah sure the defense system is not 100% fool proof, but its better then no system.

[Kärnfysikern]

Its not like 10 interceptors can withhold the Russian fleet of nukes. I mean look at it this way, instead of destroying the United States 100 times over, they have to settle with 99 times.

Yeah sure the defense system is not 100% fool proof, but its better then no system.

In what way is it better than no system? Even if it works and there is a nuclear war nothing will be left. Its not unreasonable to think that the shield would acctualy make things worse, because if the shield is present russia would go for a real overkill and use more nukes than needed just to be safe.

When it comes to countries like Iran it seems unlikely they would try to strike with ICBM's anyway, smuggling a nuke in a container ship would be much easier.

The only thing the missile shield is doing right now is increasing the risk of conflict.

[g0dsend]

In what way is it better than no system? Even if it works and there is a nuclear war nothing will be left. Its not unreasonable to think that the shield would acctualy make things worse, because if the shield is present russia would go for a real overkill and use more nukes than needed just to be safe.

When it comes to countries like Iran it seems unlikely they would try to strike with ICBM's anyway, smuggling a nuke in a container ship would be much easier.

The only thing the missile shield is doing right now is increasing the risk of conflict.

Its better then no system at all considering the threat coming for a rogue state like Iran. It is predicted by around 2015 Iran will have the capability to hit the United States with ICBM's. By no means would it make any difference with an all out war with Russia. With a nuclear strike coming from Russia, its not like 10 interceptors is going to change the outcome, the outcome is total annihilation no matter what. An "overkill" is expected no matter what from Russia, Russia is about to get destroyed and so is the United States.

Their are some systems that are in development that will make a "dent" into Russia's nuclear capability, for instance the AirBorne Laser. One of my favorite projects in development now and I have been tracking it very closely, if it all pans out it should be a great asset to have.

[Panzerfaust]

Its better then no system at all considering the threat coming for a rogue state like Iran. It is predicted by around 2015 Iran will have the capability to hit the United States with ICBM's. By no means would it make any difference with an all out war with Russia. With a nuclear strike coming from Russia, its not like 10 interceptors is going to change the outcome, the outcome is total annihilation no matter what. An "overkill" is expected no matter what from Russia, Russia is about to get destroyed and so is the United States.

Their are some systems that are in development that will make a "dent" into Russia's nuclear capability, for instance the AirBorne Laser. One of my favorite projects in development now and I have been tracking it very closely, if it all pans out it should be a great asset to have.

LMAO @ Iran being a threat to the USA. Stop watching the news man, they have you believing their bullshit. The US is doing nothing more than nation building and Iran does not care for it hence the reason the US calls them a "threat".

[g0dsend]

LMAO @ Iran being a threat to the USA. Stop watching the news man, they have you believing their bullshit. The US is doing nothing more than nation building and Iran does not care for it hence the reason the US calls them a "threat".

What do you suggest the United States do? Scrap the missile defense program because of you believe that Iran isn't a threat, take the chance at having no defense and hope that you were right? As I say again, their are reports of Iran having the capability of having ICBMs by 2015 according to the European Missile Defense to strike the United States and allies. You can believe what ever you want to believe, but I rather be protected then sorry.

Lets say North Korea starts becoming hostile again and sets off another nuke but this time has the ability to attach the warhead onto a long range missile, we have very LITTLE protection, only our PAC-3 and Aegis systems to defend in the mid/terminal phase of decent.

[Kärnfysikern]

Its better then no system at all considering the threat coming for a rogue state like Iran. It is predicted by around 2015 Iran will have the capability to hit the United States with ICBM's.

There are plenty of things Iran needs to do before that. First they need to make a couple of nukes, then they have to trim the design of the nukes enough to fit on a ICBM. Probably not possible without some tests, after that they need to develop a ICBM. Got a link to the repport Im curious to skim through it!

If minimizing risk is the goal, then border and harbo controll gives alot more bang for the buck. If a missile shield is present and iran wants to nuke the us they have plenty of easier options than to launch a icbm.

But the bigger question is, why would they launch agains the US knowing they would die imidietly afterwards. I cant say I have ever seen any indication that the ayatholla is insane. Ahmadinejad has a very big mouth, but he is just a puppet anyway.

Their are some systems that are in development that will make a "dent" into Russia's nuclear capability, for instance the AirBorne Laser. One of my favorite projects in development now and I have been tracking it very closely, if it all pans out it should be a great asset to have.

Developing increasingly effective shields is dangerous other reasons aswell.

If any major power in the future where ever able to build a close to perfect shield with say 99% sucess rate, then it would make conventional large scale war betwen major powers a option again. I personaly prefer MAD over that. MAD has prevented war for 60 years.

One more danger is that it would be a hinder for further dismantling of nuclear weapons. If the US developes a shield, russia will certainly not dismantled their nukes down to the level of a couple of hundred. They will keep thousands just in case and if russia keeps thousands so will the US. We really dont need more roadblocks in dismantling nuclear weapons, anything that encourages the us and russia to keep more than a couple of hundred nukes each is bad in the long run.

But worst of all, it would encourage opponets to do a first strike, right now russia and I guess even china has enough nukes that they can take out all large cities in the us in a retaliation even if the us manages to take out a big chunk of the launch sites. If the us had a semi working missile shield russia or china would no longer be sure a second strike is enough. If we ever get into a cuban missile crisis situation again the first strike option would look all the more inevitable.

And its also almost always easier to make a better weapon than a better defence.

Lets say North Korea starts becoming hostile again and sets off another nuke but this time has the ability to attach the warhead onto a long range missile, we have very LITTLE protection, only our PAC-3 and Aegis systems to defend in the mid/terminal phase of decent.

There is a world of difference though betwen beeing able to build a crude bomb and building nice warheads. N.korea cant even make a proper crude bomb. They are a long way from making functional nuclear tipped ICBM's.

[g0dsend]

Originally Posted by Kärnfysikern
There are plenty of things Iran needs to do before that. First they need to make a couple of nukes, then they have to trim the design of the nukes enough to fit on a ICBM. Probably not possible without some tests, after that they need to develop a ICBM. Got a link to the repport Im curious to skim through it!

If minimizing risk is the goal, then border and harbo controll gives alot more bang for the buck. If a missile shield is present and iran wants to nuke the us they have plenty of easier options than to launch a icbm.

But the bigger question is, why would they launch agains the US knowing they would die imidietly afterwards. I cant say I have ever seen any indication that the ayatholla is insane. Ahmadinejad has a very big mouth, but he is just a puppet anyway..

Of course, theirs no doubt about that. Hand in hand, the United States needs to do the same exact things regarding their missile defenses. Don't you think it would be more logical to have a defense system protecting America first and be ongoing development so when Iran or any other state builds an ICBM, we are not playing a game of catch up? Or should we wait till they have a missile, be 100% sure, start progress to a defense system, wait 10,20, maby 30 years for the shield to be operational? We need to build a shield for the upcoming threat. Iran may not be a threat today, but it sure might as hell be in the close future.

Their are ways to nuke the United States which is sometimes easier then ICBMS, but nukes that can fit inside a suitcase are a matter of fiction, nuclear devices are hefty pieces of equipment especially for nations that just acquired them and I'm sure customs are really restricting their level of detection post 9/11. It requires protection from customs and missiles.

Why would Iran launch against the United States knowing that they would get destroyed? Do you think Bin Laden thought the United States wasn't going to retaliate after killing more then 3,000 Americans on US soil? Take for example North Korea, Kim Jong-il would sacrifice his whole country to make a devastating blow to the United States, nobody can put themselves into their shoes.

On the other hand it also doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to use it, its more an political tool and buffer to get things that they want.

Originally Posted by Kärnfysikern
Developing increasingly effective shields is dangerous other reasons aswell.

If any major power in the future where ever able to build a close to perfect shield with say 99% sucess rate, then it would make conventional large scale war betwen major powers a option again. I personaly prefer MAD over that. MAD has prevented war for 60 years.

One more danger is that it would be a hinder for further dismantling of nuclear weapons. If the US developes a shield, russia will certainly not dismantled their nukes down to the level of a couple of hundred. They will keep thousands just in case and if russia keeps thousands so will the US. We really dont need more roadblocks in dismantling nuclear weapons, anything that encourages the us and russia to keep more than a couple of hundred nukes each is bad in the long run.

But worst of all, it would encourage opponets to do a first strike, right now russia and I guess even china has enough nukes that they can take out all large cities in the us in a retaliation even if the us manages to take out a big chunk of the launch sites. If the us had a semi working missile shield russia or china would no longer be sure a second strike is enough. If we ever get into a cuban missile crisis situation again the first strike option would look all the more inevitable.

And its also almost always easier to make a better weapon than a better defence..

Developing effective shields is dangerous in a way, and I really do urge the dismantling of Nuclear Weapons but other countries are not in the same boat, they are doing the complete opposite.

Sure the missile defense system of the future would not work against Russia, its more made for Tier II and Tier III nuclear capability countries which have a higher probablity to attacking us. You cannot think that one system is going to defend against Russia and providing the United States with 100% immunity. Its going to take time and MANY systems to even provide a chance against Russia, if any.

Originally Posted by Kärnfysikern
There is a world of difference though betwen beeing able to build a crude bomb and building nice warheads. N.korea cant even make a proper crude bomb. They are a long way from making functional nuclear tipped ICBM's.

The United States is a long way from creating an effective missile defense system too. Would you rather be prepared or playing catchup?