Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: By Forgiving Traditionalists, the Pope Offends Jews

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Fort Worth
    Posts
    4,264

    By Forgiving Traditionalists, the Pope Offends Jews

    http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...873855,00.html

    By Forgiving Traditionalists, the Pope Offends Jews

    By Jeff Israely Saturday, Jan. 24, 2009

    Pope Benedict XVI has reinstated four bishops from an archconservative breakaway wing of the Roman Catholic Church, a decision that is bound to stir controversy within his own flock. But Saturday's announcement that the Vatican will undo the 20-year schism between the Vatican and the so-called Lefebvrian movement is all the more sensitive because it comes only days after the broadcast of an interview in which British-born Bishop Richard Williamson, one of those Benedict is bringing back into the fold, denies that the Nazi Holocaust ever happened.

    "I believe there were no gas chambers," Williamson said. The bishop, who has been accused of anti-Semitism in the past, declared that the historical evidence was "hugely against" the accepted belief that close to 6 million Jews were systematically exterminated as part of Adolf Hitler's Final Solution. Williamson claims that no more than 300,000 Jews died during World War II. (View images of the pope in France)

    The Vatican made no mention of those remarks in the communiqué that announced the papal decree that revokes the 1988 excommunication of Williamson and his three fellow bishops. Papal spokesman Father Federico Lombardi said the decree in no way means the Pope, a German, shares Williamson's views on the Holocaust.

    Earlier this week, Jewish leaders warned that relations between the Holy See and Judaism would deteriorate if the controversial prelates were brought back into mainstream Catholicism.

    The four bishops belong to a movement founded by late French traditionalist Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. Followers oppose dialogue with other religions and say Jews should convert. Rome's chief rabbi said Williamson's rehabilitation in particular would open "a deep wound" in Jewish-Vatican relations, which had already been strained by recent controversy over the effort to make Pope Pius XII a saint despite some historians' contention that he did little to save Jews during the Holocaust. The French Jewish organization CRIF called Williamson "a despicable liar whose only goal is to revive the centuries-old hatred against Jews."

    Officially dated Jan. 21 (by coincidence the same day the interview aired), the decree states that the Pope "was inspired in this decision by the wish that complete reconciliation and full communion is reached as soon as possible." A senior Vatican official told TIME that the Pope is expected to make the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), the name Lefebvre followers call their movement, into a personal prelature of the papacy, the same special status that conservative lay group Opus Dei was granted by John Paul II.

    Benedict's decision marks a watershed. Following on the Pope's 2007 decision to widen use of the old Latin rite mass, the rapprochement with the traditionalist faction appears to be a purely papal initiative. Beyond one or two retired Cardinals, few had been urging an end to the schism. The Society of St. Pius X itself had not budged from its hard line.

    Some will hail Benedict as a bold defender of the rights of traditionalist Catholics and a man of conviction unbent by the winds of controversy; but others, both inside and outside the Church, will take his embrace of the Lefebvre followers as the final proof that Benedict, deep down, is determined to make the Church far more traditional than it is today.

    Inside the Vatican, mainstream conservative voices have expressed consternation at the Pope's focus on reaching out to a group that includes some members (though not the bishops) who don't even recognize papal authority. A Vatican official who has worked with the Pope going back to his Cardinal days, said reconciliation with Lefebvre's followers "was dear to the heart of the Holy Father." Benedict is himself fond of traditional liturgy, and felt that the four men were Catholics in good faith and should be allowed to call themselves Catholic.

    According to the Vatican official, Benedict circumvented standing procedure "in cases of schism and heresy" that calls for consultation with the doctrinal Congregation office that he himself used to lead. "There wasn't the consultation as there normally is in these cases," the official says. "There was much perplexity in the Congregation." He added that in cases of revoking an ex-communication there must be a "concrete act of faith" to demonstrate obedience to the Church's teachings and authority. The official Vatican statement cited a letter by Lefebvre's successor, Bishop Bernard Fellay, stating that the group has always considered themselves obedient Catholics.

    Lefebvre founded his movement in 1970 in an effort to oppose the reforms of the Second Vatican Council, which had introduced the mass in local languages, encouraged dialogue with other religions and generally attempted to reconcile the Church with modernity. In 1988, Lefebvre consecrated four bishops in defiance of the orders of Pope John Paul II, and was automatically ex-communicated along with the new bishops he'd chosen as future leaders of his movement.

    The group's website says it has members in 30 countries, with 463 priests and seminaries in Switzerland, Germany, France, USA, Argentina and Australia. It remains unclear how these long disaffected followers of Lefebvre will be integrated into the Church's hierarchy. "The pope wishes to see this brought to an end," a second Vatican official told TIME. "But what's going to happen? These guys are bishops, and bishops take appointments from the Pope. Will they be obedient to what the Holy Father wants to do with them?" That's not the only question likely to arise in the coming days.
    Last edited by Tock; 01-25-2009 at 02:24 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Fort Worth
    Posts
    4,264
    Wow . . . suppose that's what the pope thinks, too?

    Dunno how many folks are aware of this, but the current pope once ran the Inquisition. Not from the beginning of course (it started back in the late 1300's), just for the past few decades or so.
    Seems that back in the 1800's, Catholicism had a tough time living down the bad karma from the years of the Inquisition, where they tortured infidels and burned witches, etc etc etc

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

    so they changed it over the years thusly:

    In 1542, Pope Paul III established the Congregation of the Holy Office of the Inquisition as a permanent congregation staffed with cardinals and other officials. It had the tasks of maintaining and defending the integrity of the faith and of examining and proscribing errors and false doctrines; it thus became the supervisory body of local Inquisitions. Arguably the most famous case tried by the Roman Inquisition involved Galileo Galilei in 1633. Because of Rome's power over the Papal States, Roman Inquisition activity continued until the mid-1800s.
    In 1908 the name of the Congregation became "The Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office", which in 1965 further changed to "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith", as retained to the present day.
    Last edited by Tock; 01-25-2009 at 02:35 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Scylla and Charybdis
    Posts
    15,474
    Quote Originally Posted by Tock View Post
    http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...873855,00.html

    By Forgiving Traditionalists, the Pope Offends Jews

    By Jeff Israely Saturday, Jan. 24, 2009

    Pope Benedict XVI has reinstated four bishops from an archconservative breakaway wing of the Roman Catholic Church, a decision that is bound to stir controversy within his own flock. But Saturday's announcement that the Vatican will undo the 20-year schism between the Vatican and the so-called Lefebvrian movement is all the more sensitive because it comes only days after the broadcast of an interview in which British-born Bishop Richard Williamson, one of those Benedict is bringing back into the fold, denies that the Nazi Holocaust ever happened.

    "I believe there were no gas chambers," Williamson said. The bishop, who has been accused of anti-Semitism in the past, declared that the historical evidence was "hugely against" the accepted belief that close to 6 million Jews were systematically exterminated as part of Adolf Hitler's Final Solution. Williamson claims that no more than 300,000 Jews died during World War II. (View images of the pope in France)

    The Vatican made no mention of those remarks in the communiqué that announced the papal decree that revokes the 1988 excommunication of Williamson and his three fellow bishops. Papal spokesman Father Federico Lombardi said the decree in no way means the Pope, a German, shares Williamson's views on the Holocaust.

    Earlier this week, Jewish leaders warned that relations between the Holy See and Judaism would deteriorate if the controversial prelates were brought back into mainstream Catholicism.

    The four bishops belong to a movement founded by late French traditionalist Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. Followers oppose dialogue with other religions and say Jews should convert. Rome's chief rabbi said Williamson's rehabilitation in particular would open "a deep wound" in Jewish-Vatican relations, which had already been strained by recent controversy over the effort to make Pope Pius XII a saint despite some historians' contention that he did little to save Jews during the Holocaust. The French Jewish organization CRIF called Williamson "a despicable liar whose only goal is to revive the centuries-old hatred against Jews."

    Officially dated Jan. 21 (by coincidence the same day the interview aired), the decree states that the Pope "was inspired in this decision by the wish that complete reconciliation and full communion is reached as soon as possible." A senior Vatican official told TIME that the Pope is expected to make the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), the name Lefebvre followers call their movement, into a personal prelature of the papacy, the same special status that conservative lay group Opus Dei was granted by John Paul II.

    Benedict's decision marks a watershed. Following on the Pope's 2007 decision to widen use of the old Latin rite mass, the rapprochement with the traditionalist faction appears to be a purely papal initiative. Beyond one or two retired Cardinals, few had been urging an end to the schism. The Society of St. Pius X itself had not budged from its hard line.

    Some will hail Benedict as a bold defender of the rights of traditionalist Catholics and a man of conviction unbent by the winds of controversy; but others, both inside and outside the Church, will take his embrace of the Lefebvre followers as the final proof that Benedict, deep down, is determined to make the Church far more traditional than it is today.

    Inside the Vatican, mainstream conservative voices have expressed consternation at the Pope's focus on reaching out to a group that includes some members (though not the bishops) who don't even recognize papal authority. A Vatican official who has worked with the Pope going back to his Cardinal days, said reconciliation with Lefebvre's followers "was dear to the heart of the Holy Father." Benedict is himself fond of traditional liturgy, and felt that the four men were Catholics in good faith and should be allowed to call themselves Catholic.

    According to the Vatican official, Benedict circumvented standing procedure "in cases of schism and heresy" that calls for consultation with the doctrinal Congregation office that he himself used to lead. "There wasn't the consultation as there normally is in these cases," the official says. "There was much perplexity in the Congregation." He added that in cases of revoking an ex-communication there must be a "concrete act of faith" to demonstrate obedience to the Church's teachings and authority. The official Vatican statement cited a letter by Lefebvre's successor, Bishop Bernard Fellay, stating that the group has always considered themselves obedient Catholics.

    Lefebvre founded his movement in 1970 in an effort to oppose the reforms of the Second Vatican Council, which had introduced the mass in local languages, encouraged dialogue with other religions and generally attempted to reconcile the Church with modernity. In 1988, Lefebvre consecrated four bishops in defiance of the orders of Pope John Paul II, and was automatically ex-communicated along with the new bishops he'd chosen as future leaders of his movement.

    The group's website says it has members in 30 countries, with 463 priests and seminaries in Switzerland, Germany, France, USA, Argentina and Australia. It remains unclear how these long disaffected followers of Lefebvre will be integrated into the Church's hierarchy. "The pope wishes to see this brought to an end," a second Vatican official told TIME. "But what's going to happen? These guys are bishops, and bishops take appointments from the Pope. Will they be obedient to what the Holy Father wants to do with them?" That's not the only question likely to arise in the coming days.
    Benedict knows what he's doing....and I think this is a smart move on his part. He's just swinging the pendulum back from the years of liberals popes like JP II, Paul VI, and John XXIII.

    He's got a lot of damage control to do, esp. after JPII. But I don't think that means he agrees with Williamson about the holocaust. Being a leader means you can't please everyone.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Scylla and Charybdis
    Posts
    15,474
    Quote Originally Posted by Tock View Post
    Wow . . . suppose that's what the pope thinks, too?

    Dunno how many folks are aware of this, but the current pope once ran the Inquisition. Not from the beginning of course (it started back in the late 1300's), just for the past few decades or so.
    Seems that back in the 1800's, Catholicism had a tough time living down the bad karma from the years of the Inquisition, where they tortured infidels and burned witches, etc etc etc

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

    so they changed it over the years thusly:

    In 1542, Pope Paul III established the Congregation of the Holy Office of the Inquisition as a permanent congregation staffed with cardinals and other officials. It had the tasks of maintaining and defending the integrity of the faith and of examining and proscribing errors and false doctrines; it thus became the supervisory body of local Inquisitions. Arguably the most famous case tried by the Roman Inquisition involved Galileo Galilei in 1633. Because of Rome's power over the Papal States, Roman Inquisition activity continued until the mid-1800s.
    In 1908 the name of the Congregation became "The Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office", which in 1965 further changed to "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith", as retained to the present day.
    Well, wikapedia is no where near a reliable source of information. It still baffles my mind when I see people quoting it.

    But it true, Benedict (Ratzinger) was head of the CDF (Congregation for the Doctrine of the faith). So what?

    I agree, the Inquisition was a black mark in the history of Catholicism. But even the briefest perusal of any history book will show that the Catholic church was not the only institution that tortured and killed heretics. So did Protestants and Muslims. No one is perfect.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Fort Worth
    Posts
    4,264
    Quote Originally Posted by derek7m View Post
    Well, wikapedia is no where near a reliable source of information. It still baffles my mind when I see people quoting it.

    But it true, Benedict (Ratzinger) was head of the CDF (Congregation for the Doctrine of the faith). So what?
    Agreed, Wikipedia is hardly an authoritative source of information. But this time, they're pretty close. Anyone who's into Religious S&M and who wants to read up on the details ought to do so. It's truly appalling. But on the upside, it was their excesses that prompted the US founding fathers to put the Bill of Rights into the Constitution. Good for us.




    I agree, the Inquisition was a black mark in the history of Catholicism. But even the briefest perusal of any history book will show that the Catholic church was not the only institution that tortured and killed heretics. So did Protestants and Muslims. No one is perfect.
    Huh . . . Excuse the Catholic Inquisition for some of their horrors because Protestants tortured and killed heretics (true) and Muslims tortured and killed heretics (true), and Nazis tortured and killed heretics (true) because nobody's perfect?

    I don't think so.

    The common thread running through all these horrors is fundamentalist religion. It warps and twists the hearts and minds of men and, given a little encouragement, can turn congregations of otherwise nice people into packs of rabid dogs. Whatever it is that inclines humans to this sort of abuse isn't anything that needs to be excused with a "Nobody's perfect."

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Scylla and Charybdis
    Posts
    15,474
    Quote Originally Posted by Tock View Post
    Agreed, Wikipedia is hardly an authoritative source of information. But this time, they're pretty close. Anyone who's into Religious S&M and who wants to read up on the details ought to do so. It's truly appalling. But on the upside, it was their excesses that prompted the US founding fathers to put the Bill of Rights into the Constitution. Good for us.






    Huh . . . Excuse the Catholic Inquisition for some of their horrors because Protestants tortured and killed heretics (true) and Muslims tortured and killed heretics (true), and Nazis tortured and killed heretics (true) because nobody's perfect?

    I don't think so.

    The common thread running through all these horrors is fundamentalist religion. It warps and twists the hearts and minds of men and, given a little encouragement, can turn congregations of otherwise nice people into packs of rabid dogs. Whatever it is that inclines humans to this sort of abuse isn't anything that needs to be excused with a "Nobody's perfect."
    well said on the first part.

    By no means was I trying to excuse the Inquisition by saying "No one is perfect." I was simply making the point that it is not specific only to the Catholic Church. Some people like to slam the RCC saying, "oh they did this, didn't do this", but don't realize, historically, every religion did.

    And I'm not really even trying to defend the RCC. It was more of a historical point.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Fort Worth
    Posts
    4,264
    Ya, well, it seems to me that most religious folks are pleasant people. What turns just about any philosopy into a nightmare is when people take it so seriously that they force other people to comply "for their own good." It's something that happens in religion and politics not infrequently. The only "religion" I've found that has "scriptures" that put this unhappy phenomenon in proper perspective is The Church of the SubGenius, where in it's groundbreaking Book of the Subgenius it cautions members NOT to take things too seriously--

    The Church of the SubGenius is known for a standing offer that stems from the ordainment fee: "Eternal Salvation or TRIPLE Your Money Back!" The organization claims that if an ordained SubGenius minister dies and finds himself standing at the gates of "Normal" or "Boring" Hell, he will be personally greeted by Church founder J. R. "Bob" Dobbs Himself and receive a refund check for $90.00, along with a booklet titled, "How to Enjoy Hell for Five Cents an Eternity," which costs $89.95.[6]


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_SubGenius
    where it states, "
    "If you don't laugh, you didn't get it, but if you ONLY laugh, you didn't get it."




    Quote Originally Posted by derek7m View Post
    well said on the first part.

    By no means was I trying to excuse the Inquisition by saying "No one is perfect." I was simply making the point that it is not specific only to the Catholic Church. Some people like to slam the RCC saying, "oh they did this, didn't do this", but don't realize, historically, every religion did.

    And I'm not really even trying to defend the RCC. It was more of a historical point.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Scylla and Charybdis
    Posts
    15,474
    omg. Now that is hilarious.

    I've never heard of the "Church of the sub-genius", but man, that is great

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Fort Worth
    Posts
    4,264
    Ya, it's truly inspired.

    Every now and then some nut takes this SubGenius stuff too seriously and at some Devival meeting starts telling other folks that they should (or shouldn't) do something because "Bob" wants them to do it that way. It's a fundamentalist approach to what was originally created to be a parody.

    I suspect that the original creators of religious philosophies never intended that their pharasees and fundamentalists apply their ideas in the strict no-holds-barred manner that they do.

    C'est la vie . . .

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •