Spending our way to prosperity?

[Kratos]

WASHINGTON - President Barack Obama unveiled a multi-trillion-dollar spending plan Thursday that would boost taxes on the wealthy, curtail Medicare, lay the groundwork for universal health care and leave a string of deficits dwarfing any in the nation's history.

In addition to sending Congress his $3.55 trillion budget plan for 2010, Obama proposed more immediate changes that would push spending to $3.94 trillion in the current year. That would result in a record deficit Obama projects will hit $1.75 trillion, reflecting the massive spending being undertaken to battle a severe recession and the worst financial crisis in seven decades.

The new deficit total is roughly equivalent to $12,000 for every taxpayer in the United States, or approximately $6,000 for every man, woman and child in America.

The whole article
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29392964/

"the deficit for this year to $1.75 trillion, nearly four times last year's record $455 billion and a percentage of the economy — just over 12 percent — not seen since World War II. The deficit would remain near $1 trillion over the next two years"

and that's if they come in on target of the proposed budgets

[Tock]

IMHO, if we don't spend the trillions, we're screwed.
IMHO, if we do spend the trillions, we're screwed.

May as well pay to fix schools, roads, and bridges before they inflate the currency to pay for everything. And, don't forget to give props to the folks, including the Bush administration (I'd include Bush himself, but I don't think he really had much of an influence on what went on), for creating the mess in the first place.

[Kratos]

Why don't we ever learn from history? Simple analysis and results of past economic crisises are our best tool for undertanding the economy.

There is nothing in Obama’s New Deal that is likely to solve our financial problems. The new deal's incremental spending did little good for our economy except raise our national debt. Until, finally, World War II came along and necessitated monumental government spending and full time implementation of our production capacity. In the Great Depression the country was highly industrialized with an awesome production capacity in a market that was largely closed. we are no longer industrialized and we are no longer a closed economy. We are not a provider of goods to the world. Rather we have become the world’s greatest consumer. In our absence of production of goods for the world, we are remarkably ill-equipped to pay for our consumption.

Aka, we'll stimulate production in the countries where production takes place. They aren't going to send that money back to the US in exchange for goods. They're going to use it to buy rice and a new (used) bicycle to get to work. They'll be in the same boat as us when we again stop buying their goods on credit.

12k of debt per person in one year...my God, I would never be that irresponsible with my own money to put 12k on a credit card.

Stimulation of consumption by way of easy credit will enhance production in a closed economy suffering from a lack of credit. Giving banks money so they're willing to take on new loans simply doesn't work. There must be an expansion of the general public’s capacity to take on new debt.

The general public doesn't have money to take on new debt. So, the gvmt is basically co-signing for them to take out a loan and buy consumer goods and continue the same lifestyle we live in an over-inflated economy.

Making the government again the great consumer. This fails utterly to address the key problems: our lack of production capacity for world exchange. All it does is create a monumental debt obligation for future generations.

If we don't spend the trillions, we're less screwed. A correction will be forth coming. It will be far deeper after the money runs out.

[j4ever41]

hope and change

[Kratos]

hope and change

for the better?

[amcon]

WASHINGTON - President Barack Obama unveiled a multi-trillion-dollar spending plan Thursday that would boost taxes on the wealthy, curtail Medicare, lay the groundwork for universal health care and leave a string of deficits dwarfing any in the nation's history.

In addition to sending Congress his $3.55 trillion budget plan for 2010, Obama proposed more immediate changes that would push spending to $3.94 trillion in the current year. That would result in a record deficit Obama projects will hit $1.75 trillion, reflecting the massive spending being undertaken to battle a severe recession and the worst financial crisis in seven decades.

The new deficit total is roughly equivalent to $12,000 for every taxpayer in the United States, or approximately $6,000 for every man, woman and child in America.

The whole article
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29392964/

"the deficit for this year to $1.75 trillion, nearly four times last year's record $455 billion and a percentage of the economy — just over 12 percent — not seen since World War II. The deficit would remain near $1 trillion over the next two years"

and that's if they come in on target of the proposed budgets

ya bro it is totally screwed up - reason is because washinton is saying we are going to tax the rich... sounds good if you not "rich" but - and that is a big but!!! if they not just taxed the rich but took all their earnings for the year (all of their grose income ) it would only cover 50 - 55% of the spending they are talking about

so :
1 - either they are lieing and they are going to tax(drasticly increase) the non- rich

2 - they are going to drive the american dollar in to pennies - because they are thinking they are going to print the money in to excistance

3 - they just dont care - and they are going to put them selves above the law, above taxes... and we wind up getting screwed (note: look for them to pass a law, non-changable law that exempts them from taxes. or taxes higherr than a certain persentage)

the major point is this is not the way to fix anything... prof is in the present well fair system - does it help people or teach them to take a hand out?

america was allways the land of oppertunity - that is oppertunity to earn a life style... not take it from the ones who were willing to fight and get out of bed to earn it... then give it to the ones that were home watching tv saying " the gov owes me!!!"

[amcon]

IMHO, if we don't spend the trillions, we're screwed.
IMHO, if we do spend the trillions, we're screwed.

May as well pay to fix schools, roads, and bridges before they inflate the currency to pay for everything. And, don't forget to give props to the folks, including the Bush administration (I'd include Bush himself, but I don't think he really had much of an influence on what went on), for creating the mess in the first place.

the mess we are in dates back to carter... fyi

and clinton defered many many dollars to the next adminstration

bush made (imo) a much larger gov built through a war time presidency, not a popular one, and not a well ballanced one fiscally

however, the oboma administration will have no excuses... he knew what he was getting in to before the ran for president. also, they have the largest democrate /liberal based team ever in washington... they will be able to pass just about any thing they want. with out much oppositition...

i am not a liberal and could care less about dem or rep... i want a place in america that promotes our success...

[amcon]

Why don't we ever learn from history? Simple analysis and results of past economic crisises are our best tool for undertanding the economy.

There is nothing in Obama’s New Deal that is likely to solve our financial problems. The new deal's incremental spending did little good for our economy except raise our national debt. Until, finally, World War II came along and necessitated monumental government spending and full time implementation of our production capacity. In the Great Depression the country was highly industrialized with an awesome production capacity in a market that was largely closed. we are no longer industrialized and we are no longer a closed economy. We are not a provider of goods to the world. Rather we have become the world’s greatest consumer. In our absence of production of goods for the world, we are remarkably ill-equipped to pay for our consumption.

Aka, we'll stimulate production in the countries where production takes place. They aren't going to send that money back to the US in exchange for goods. They're going to use it to buy rice and a new (used) bicycle to get to work. They'll be in the same boat as us when we again stop buying their goods on credit.

12k of debt per person in one year...my God, I would never be that irresponsible with my own money to put 12k on a credit card.

Stimulation of consumption by way of easy credit will enhance production in a closed economy suffering from a lack of credit. Giving banks money so they're willing to take on new loans simply doesn't work. There must be an expansion of the general public’s capacity to take on new debt.

The general public doesn't have money to take on new debt. So, the gvmt is basically co-signing for them to take out a loan and buy consumer goods and continue the same lifestyle we live in an over-inflated economy.

Making the government again the great consumer. This fails utterly to address the key problems: our lack of production capacity for world exchange. All it does is create a monumental debt obligation for future generations.

If we don't spend the trillions, we're less screwed. A correction will be forth coming. It will be far deeper after the money runs out.

i honestly believe we are at a point that the country is teatering as to how we knew the usa... we are on the verge of what happened to russia. and we are 60% of the way to collapse. the gov know that and is hoping to create confidence in the general public... it is not working - how do we know this ? look at wall st.

in stead of giveing us a 12k debt and taking more money from the "rich" (who are over taxed already, paying over 50% of our present tax base... and they only number 10 % of our population) we should come up with a better idea like let inflation take over increase the value of the dollar and watch people hold on to thier money till the cost of goods makes the correction (businesses fail) and reset the usa ecomomey

[Kratos]

i honestly believe we are at a point that the country is teatering as to how we knew the usa... we are on the verge of what happened to russia. and we are 60% of the way to collapse. the gov know that and is hoping to create confidence in the general public... it is not working - how do we know this ? look at wall st.

in stead of giveing us a 12k debt and taking more money from the "rich" (who are over taxed already, paying over 50% of our present tax base... and they only number 10 % of our population) we should come up with a better idea like let inflation take over increase the value of the dollar and watch people hold on to thier money till the cost of goods makes the correction (businesses fail) and reset the usa ecomomey

Obama didn't create the problem. But electing an Obama was the wrong way to go. We need less reliance on debt and deficit spending to remain sustainable.

I agree we're on the verge of total collapse. To avoid it the gvmt needs to spend within their ability to collect taxes even if that means economic pain. It's too much debt too fast and a hole we'll never get out of. A falsely inflated economy based on debt, either public or private is not sustainable.

Inflation doesn't increase the value of the dollar, not sure where you're going there.

[Kratos]

It's not just the 12k this year that bothers me
The proposed budgets for the next couple of years aren't that far off. How long can we run a deficit that big?

[amcon]

here is a soulution to the probs:

1 - tap in to your 401 k via debt card - with out penalty

2 - fix the housing prob - DO NOT BAIL OUT THE BANKS - give every one a 30k credit to buy a house or to lower their present mortgage... that gets people to affordable housing, gets the houses on the market selling... insures the banks that if the person looses the ability to pay for the house that the bank has a 30k cushion. NOTE: each new house bought must be based on one persons income not house hold income... dont like it? too bad pay cash.

3 - let companies fail... it will force investers to jump in and buy out the company and most likely run it better. example gm, or several banks

4 - give every one a no intrest loan on a domestic cars, yes some car companies are offering that now, with great credit scores... not the average person

5 - give small business, med bussiness, large business tax breaks for employing people at higher reates of compensation. example for every employee that make 50k a year base sal... give the company a 3000 dollar tax credit

6 - gas prices must go down... it is killing the big trucker and thus causing all of the normal products to rise in price... plus if gas is lower studies after studies prove that the normal familes (not the rich) will spend more time supporting businesses with small day trips thus helping the economy.

7 - massively decrease the amount of gov employees!!!! the numbers should be cut in half if not larger... take the next four years to do that we dont want to flood the unemployment offices - their are way to make this a very good thing for both parties... every former gov employee would get three years paid at a local community collage, they would have to come up with the money to pay for the 4th year... shouldnt be to hard have them work pt at the school and 50& paid in cash 50% held in credit to finish the 4th year or to pay for any one in their family to use at a later date... or forfit if not used - or maybe donate to a less forutnate family.

8 - DRASTICALLY CUT WHAT WE GIVE TO OTHER NATIONS FOR "HELP"... WE CAN REVISIT THIS WHEN WE FALL UNDER SPECIFIC NUMBERS BASED ON ECONOMIC NUMBERS.

9 - BRING YOUR TROOP HOME AND PUT ALL OF THEM ON OUR BORDERS!!! IF SOME ONE WANT IN TO OUR COUNTRY LET THEM DO IT THE RIGHT WAY - NOT AS ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS...

10 - IF A POLITICIAN SAYS HE IS GOING TO DO SOMETHING ... AND REFUSED TO DO SO AFTER ELECTED - WE HAVE THE RIGHT FOR A HEARING AND IMPEACHMENT... THUS, A REVOTE FOR THAT POLITICAL OFFICE... example : i did not vote for oboma because what he is doing now is what i read and agreed he would do... and i dont agree with it... but he said that he would remove troops asap!!! it would be his "first action at hand"... and that got him many many votes... now he is sending more troops over and made a commitment to send 50k total... so my point is this the votes he recieved due to his promise were achieved by misrepresenting the voters, so a hearing would be brought forth and review the decision. (note: just for the record i believe as president obama was breifed on the true threat to our country - and made the best decision to leave troops over their... not a popular decision but that is why he is president... ) if the decision was found to be an out right lie... he is charged and possibly removed from office for misrepresentation - radical i know BUT - it would force politicians to becareful of what they say to get votes !!! i will say that again IT WOULD FROCE POLITICANS TO CHOOSE THEIR WORDS CAREFULLY WHILE LOOKING FOR VOTES!!! THEN WE COULD ACTUALLY VOTE FOR A PERSON THAT WOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR WORDS...

WHAT DO YOU THINK? NOT JUST CRITICISE GOV OR ME OR KRATOS FOR THE POST OR ANY BODY ELSE'S IDEALS BUT GIVE A SOLUTION ---- we may need it cause the country may not be what it was founded as very very soon!!!

(note: and if you dont believe that the gov relizes that we are thinking "revolt" or similar concepts then why all the oboma gun control bills and amendments???? taking guns away form the people? imagine if the British did that to the colinists?)

[amcon]

Obama didn't create the problem. But electing an Obama was the wrong way to go. We need less reliance on debt and deficit spending to remain sustainable.

I agree we're on the verge of total collapse. To avoid it the gvmt needs to spend within their ability to collect taxes even if that means economic pain. It's too much debt too fast and a hole we'll never get out of. A falsely inflated economy based on debt, either public or private is not sustainable.

Inflation doesn't increase the value of the dollar, not sure where you're going there.

during the 70s the inflation was on the rise... it forced every one to hold thier money and caused the "market" to lower prices to pry the money out of peoples hands... i cant explain it better than that... but, i sat in front of a man who predicted this and inflation (letting inflation happen) would force us to hold dollars and force people to spend on good deals... good deals would come as we say in the late 70s early 80s is the price of lower cars (lower quality as well... )

[amcon]

Obama didn't create the problem. But electing an Obama was the wrong way to go. We need less reliance on debt and deficit spending to remain sustainable.

I agree we're on the verge of total collapse. To avoid it the gvmt needs to spend within their ability to collect taxes even if that means economic pain. It's too much debt too fast and a hole we'll never get out of. A falsely inflated economy based on debt, either public or private is not sustainable.

Inflation doesn't increase the value of the dollar, not sure where you're going there.

i agree oboma did not create the prob... but he is not helping it... even his own staff is giving is a 60/40 chance of success... trillions spent and 60% persent of success??? what company would make that bet?

[mcx]

Treating the rich like a ****ing cookie jar to take money from is stupid. The rich are the ones making jobs, hiring people and creating new companies to employ people. No one realises how ****ed we will be by taking even more money form the people that have it. Cut taxes, cut pay roll taxes, and stop giving money to every asshole that had kids and have no job in the first place. I think you should have to have a liscense to have a kid. You need one to catch a ****ing fish right?

[j4ever41]

for the better?

my thoughts exactly.

[Nooomoto]

Yes We Can!!!...implement Socialism bit by bit

Unfortunately, most Americans are too concerned with American Idol and Slumdog Millionaire to notice what's going. Even more unfortunately, these are the same people who are allowed to vote. Vote they did! And this is what we have to work with.

God speed, America.

I'm gonna take my guns into the mountains and hide until Republicans get back in the game. Not really, but our hands our tied. Liberal Democrats are running wild and taking every chance they can to do something crazy that they weren't allowed to do before. It's like leaving kids at home without a baby-sitter for the first time. They go nuts.

[amcon]

Treating the rich like a ****ing cookie jar to take money from is stupid. The rich are the ones making jobs, hiring people and creating new companies to employ people. No one realises how ****ed we will be by taking even more money form the people that have it. Cut taxes, cut pay roll taxes, and stop giving money to every asshole that had kids and have no job in the first place. I think you should have to have a liscense to have a kid. You need one to catch a ****ing fish right?

jmo... but, they are doing that on purpose to force the productive out of usa, and force more dependance on the govt

[amcon]

Yes We Can!!!...implement Socialism bit by bit

Unfortunately, most Americans are too concerned with American Idol and Slumdog Millionaire to notice what's going. Even more unfortunately, these are the same people who are allowed to vote. Vote they did! And this is what we have to work with.

God speed, America.

I'm gonna take my guns into the mountains and hide until Republicans get back in the game. Not really, but our hands our tied. Liberal Democrats are running wild and taking every chance they can to do something crazy that they weren't allowed to do before. It's like leaving kids at home without a baby-sitter for the first time. They go nuts.

just pm me when you go so i know where some of my friends will be... and imo republicans are not too far off the dems... it will take conservative types to keep america to the goals of the founding fathers...

[Nooomoto]

just pm me when you go so i know where some of my friends will be... and imo republicans are not too far off the dems... it will take conservative types to keep america to the goals of the founding fathers...

LOL...yeah I'll hit you up and join Google Latitude, so you can find me.

[AandF6969]

I hate both political parties.

They're both wiping their ass with the constitution.

Have you guys looked into some of the Libertarian party's ideals? It's everything I agree with from both parties. I'm sold.

[Razzberry]

Ron Paul or bust.

[Flagg]

Bust unfortunately. The Elites have done a superb job of brainwashing the majority of the puplic that people like Ron Paul are just funny sounding guys that arent very patriotic.

Im just waiting for the proposed "idea" from Brown and Obama on how a massive One World Bank would be a great idea to prevent this happening again.

[BuffedGuy]

Bust unfortunately. The Elites have done a superb job of brainwashing the majority of the puplic that people like Ron Paul are just funny sounding guys that arent very patriotic.

Yes, exactly. It is--as Noam Chomksy puts it--"manufacturing consent." They try to make Ron Paul sound like he's crazy, and the only way they can do that is by only showing clips of what he says, taking words out of context, twisting what he says, and then making snide comments, without giving him a free and fair chance at responding.

Alas, all these people in the media will be held to account on the Day of Judgment, when their tongues will testify against themselves.

When it comes to foreign policy, Obama and McCain are virtually identical, distinguishable not by substance but by mere rhetoric. Obama has already begun flip-flopping, and proving what his opponents said of him: he has a silver tongue and nothing else. I pray for America's and the world's sake that Ron Paul wins an election by some miracle.

[Flagg]

Yes, exactly. It is--as Noam Chomksy puts it--"manufacturing consent." They try to make Ron Paul sound like he's crazy, and the only way they can do that is by only showing clips of what he says, taking words out of context, twisting what he says, and then making snide comments, without giving him a free and fair chance at responding.

Alas, all these people in the media will be held to account on the Day of Judgment, when their tongues will testify against themselves.

When it comes to foreign policy, Obama and McCain are virtually identical, distinguishable not by substance but by mere rhetoric. Obama has already begun flip-flopping, and proving what his opponents said of him: he has a silver tongue and nothing else. I pray for America's and the world's sake that Ron Paul wins an election by some miracle.

I agree with you on most of this Buffed. Seeing as im not a man of fate however and I tend to believe in Existentialism, it saddens me knowing those accountable for their actions WONT be made accountable before they die. If they get punished in the here after, so be it...I want to see these people punished in this life time though as well.

However, I do believe one day someone like Ron Paul will be heard, will be listened to...probably when most of our freedoms have been stripped and people stop, look around and say "Damn, what the **** happened". Hopefully that wont be a sceanrio of "too little too late".

[Flagg]

I pray for America's and the world's sake that Ron Paul wins an election by some miracle.

This world NEEDS Ron Paul. And it amazes me that more people aren't realising this. Shall we wait until we're being arrested for daring to speak against our government before we realise Ron Paul was the last true democratic politician?

[BuffedGuy]

This world NEEDS Ron Paul. And it amazes me that more people aren't realising this. Shall we wait until we're being arrested for daring to speak against our government before we realise Ron Paul was the last true democratic politician?

Although I think that the bolded part of your post is a bit sensationalist , I do agree with you that the world needs Ron Paul to be elected. I will volunteer in the Ron Paul effort in the next election, God-Willing...perhaps the first time that I have ever been motivated to even cast a vote for anyone.

[Flagg]

Although I think that the bolded part of your post is a bit sensationalist , I do agree with you that the world needs Ron Paul to be elected. I will volunteer in the Ron Paul effort in the next election, God-Willing...perhaps the first time that I have ever been motivated to even cast a vote for anyone.

Heh, yeah re-reading that now does make that look a bit melodramatic. But the point is, a lot of the public ARE brainwashed slaves to consumerism, and they are the kind of people that only open their eyes when they are getting royally shafted from behind.