Israel is going to war

[Beetlegeuse]

Beetle, I think you make a mistake in lumping all Palestinians with Hamas....

Do the Palestinians give Hamas sanctuary when they're looking for some place to hide after they've committed acts of terrorism against Israel? Of course they do.

Were "decent" southerners who never burned a cross in their life still guilty of aiding and abetting for not ratting out the KKK after terrorizing black folks? Hell yes they were.

Same principle.

Hamas commits act of terrorism, then runs to hide among the petticoats of the rank and file Palestinians. Should that stop Israel from retaliating, wherever Hamas might be cowering? Hell no.

[wango]

So you’re saying when the KKK just “terrorized” black folks in Orange County very recently, the black folks should lump the “more conservative” residents in together with the KKK and retaliate?

[Beetlegeuse]

Luke Skywalker Condemned For Blowing Up Associated Press Office Located On Death Star



YAVIN—Known rebel and terrorist Luke Skywalker has been condemned by the Imperial Press Corps for blowing up an Associated Press office located on the Death Star.

"Mr. Skywalker barely gave us an hour's notice to evacuate," said AP reporter Bryn Stellar. "It's clear that the Rebellion wants to eliminate journalists and hamper our ability to tell the story of their terror to the galaxy. We were just minding our own business reporting on their nefarious activity from our offices on the 64th level of the Empire's new space station when we got the warning."

"Shocking and appalling."

Footage of journalists frantically evacuating was quickly broadcast on Imperial channels around the galaxy to garner sympathy for the reporters and turn the public against the rebels.

"From Coruscant to Tatooine, the Empire will be free," said anti-rebel activist M'iika C'rett. "It's clear now what the rebels want: genocide."

"And think of all the jobs they just eliminated!"

[almostgone]

Beetle, I think you make a mistake in lumping all Palestinians with Hamas. While they may enjoy a lot of popular support on that side of the fence they are not the voice of a whole people. Does Biden speak for you?

That video was people who actually grew up there and live there. I never claimed it was anything but perspective, and one that you and I clearly lack as Americans. I don't have a solution and ultimately they represent the ones that have to find a balance they can live with.

My ex-gf was a Jewish Zionist to the core and I got to hear some strong opinions come out of her mouth, and hear about a lot of stuff that simply doesn't land on our news radar here. Palestinian rocket attacks were apparently as normal as rain in some places, and they were all too happy to target civilan areas. They'd literally fire them off from their own schools and hospitals to invite reprisal!

Still, I admit I feel a certain empathy towards the Palestinian cause as someone of an Irish background. I was raised that the IRA were righteous heroes, contrary to what some others may think.

True. Just like Ansar al-Sharia didn't represent the entire populace of Libya.

Does Israel have the right to defend itself? Unequivocally.

Are all Palestinians inclined to destroy Israel? No.

Does cowardly Hamas hide behind innocent Palestinians? All day long 24/7/365.

It's truly sad for the Innocents that just want to live their lives and be left alone.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, it royally f-in pisses me off to know Israel suffers these attacks, but I have to remind myself to focus my anger on the perpetrators, not the Palestinian population.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

Does Hamas commit crimes versus Israel?
Yes.

But the point that I haven't seen brought up is that Israel commits crimes versus the Palestinian people.

Their lands get stolen.
Their houses destroyed.
Their treated like 2nd class citizens.
Their economy is suppressed.
And much more...

And this occurs in times of peace and war.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries...n-territories/


The Palestinian people aren't "rebelling" simply for fun.


My wife and kids are Jewish.
My ancestors are Arabic.

I have plenty of skin in the game.
Both sides have a story to tell.


Again: Do yourself a favor and read "From Beirut to Jerusalem".

Side note: Ariel Sharon was forced to resign from being Defense Minister due to his involvement in genocide versus the Palestinian people. He earned the nickname of Butcher of Beirut. The Israelis later found him fit to elect as Prime Minister.
Google Sabra and Shantila massacre.

[Hughinn]

So you’re saying when the KKK just “terrorized” black folks in Orange County very recently, the black folks should lump the “more conservative” residents in together with the KKK and retaliate?

Haha.

Yeah I read about that Wango. About a dozen losers and several hundred "counter proteters"

I'm sure y'all were very terrified.

[Hughinn]

Does Hamas commit crimes versus Israel?
Yes.

But the point that I haven't seen brought up is that Israel commits crimes versus the Palestinian people.

Their lands get stolen.
Their houses destroyed.
Their treated like 2nd class citizens.
Their economy is suppressed.
And much more...

And this occurs in times of peace and war.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries...n-territories/


The Palestinian people aren't "rebelling" simply for fun.


My wife and kids are Jewish.
My ancestors are Arabic.

I have plenty of skin in the game.
Both sides have a story to tell.


Again: Do yourself a favor and read "From Beirut to Jerusalem".

Side note: Ariel Sharon was forced to resign from being Defense Minister due to his involvement in genocide versus the Palestinian people. He earned the nickname of Butcher of Beirut. The Israelis later found him fit to elect as Prime Minister.
Google Sabra and Shantila massacre.

The interesting part of the story to me, is that what has happened to the Palestinian people is basically colonialism. They got thier land annexed, and colonized. Without thier permission, then they got herded into Gaza and the west bank, walled off and corralled in.

The democrat party in America has thus far condemned such occurrences all over the world, even in It's own history. Condemned it to the point of promoting genocide against the boer peoples in South Africa in order to end apartheid (as well as steal the diamonds) But somehow thus far has not seen the parallels in Palestine/Israel. Or at least ignores it.

But the doctrines they've preached are catching up and catching on. Liberals who've been indoctrinated in leftist ideology are beginning to see, and ask questions.

I have no skin in that game one way or the other. And to be honest, it's really of little concern to me one way or the other how it shakes out. My interest is in how the democrat party can justify, helping or siding with Israel. I'm very curious to see how that situation pans out. And the political repercussions all over the world.

The right in general will support Israel because the majority on the right believe that land belongs to them by divine decree. And that the Jewish people therefore have a right to it.

But the left claims not to believe in that religion. And according to leftist religion, peace can only be achieved when the rabbis Hebrew daughter is sleeping with arab boys across town. So we'll see how it works out.

It's going to be interesting

[The Deadlifting Dog]

Please stick to the Israel/Palestinian theme.

If you want...
Start a thread on the plight of the Boers/Afrikaners.
You can accuse Democrats of genocide there. (oh... and thievery too.)

[wango]

My wife and kids are Jewish.
My ancestors are Arabic.

I have plenty of skin in the game.
Both sides have a story to tell.


Again: Do yourself a favor and read "From Beirut to Jerusalem".

Side note: Ariel Sharon was forced to resign from being Defense Minister due to his involvement in genocide versus the Palestinian people. He earned the nickname of Butcher of Beirut. The Israelis later found him fit to elect as Prime Minister.
Google Sabra and Shantila massacre.

My wife and her family are Jewish as well.

Thanks for the book tip, it arrives tonight. Currently reading “A History of the Modern Middle East”. Not quite to the 20th century yet. Any other book recommendations on Israel?

[The Deadlifting Dog]

For an easy watch on the history of the Israel-Palestine situation...

[The Deadlifting Dog]

Any other book recommendations on Israel?

Try the Torah, Bible, and Koran for starters...

[wango]

Try the Torah, Bible, and Koran for starters...

Yes, understood. The history in all three religions is great & interesting reading.

I’m looking for recommendations on additional books on “Modern Israel” if you’ve read them. Perhaps covering the late 1800’s and into the 1940’s, leading to the formation of Israel as of 1948. I have read and really have to re-read “Power, Faith and Fantasy”. Great book, just is a dense and very long read. Thank you.

[Beetlegeuse]

Why does the hard left glorify the Palestinians?

By Alan M. Dershowitz

In a world in which massive violations of human rights have, tragically, become the norm, why has the hard left focused on one of the least compelling of those causes — namely, the Palestinians? Where is the concern for the Kurds, the Chechens, the Uyghurs, the Tibetans? There are no campus demonstrations on their behalf, no expressions of concern by “the Squad” in Congress, no United Nations resolutions, no recurring op-eds in The New York Times, and no claims that the nations that oppress these groups have no right to exist.

On the merits and demerits of their claims, the Palestinians have the weakest case. They have been offered statehood and independence on numerous occasions: in 1938, 1948, 1967, 2000-2001 and 2008. Israel ended its occupation of the Gaza Strip in 2005. Yet, even now, Palestinian leaders refuse to sit down and negotiate a reasonable two-state solution. As the late Israeli diplomat Abba Eban once aptly put it, the Palestinian leadership never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

Nor are history and morality on their side. The Palestinian leadership allied itself with Nazism and Hitler in the 1940s, with Egyptian tyranny and antisemitism in the 1950s, and with international terrorism from the 1960s forward.

In 1947, the United Nations divided the land that the Romans called Palestine and the Jews called Yisrael into two areas. It provided a sliver of land along the Mediterranean and a non-arable desert called the Negev to the Jews, who were a majority in that area, and a much larger arable area to the Arabs. The Jews declared statehood on their land. Instead of declaring statehood on their land, the Palestinians and surrounding Arab nations declared war. The Arabs lost and the Jews captured more land. As a result of the war, there occurred an exchange of populations: Hundreds of thousands of Arabs left or were forced out of Israel, and hundreds of thousands of Jews left or were forced out of Arab countries and Arab Palestine.

Again, in 1967, the surrounding Arab nations threatened to destroy Israel, which preemptively attacked and occupied the West Bank and Gaza, which it immediately offered to return — with some territorial adjustments necessary for security — in exchange for peace and recognition. The U.N. Security Council issued Resolution 242, which called for a return of captured territories in exchange for peace. Israel accepted. The Arab nations and the Palestinians, however, issued their three infamous “no’s” — no peace, no recognition, no negotiation.

The Kurds have never been offered independence or statehood, despite treaties that promised it. Nor have the Tibetans, the Uyghurs or the Chechens. But the Palestinians have, on multiple occasions since 1938, when their leader told the Peale Commission that the Palestinians don’t want a state — they just want there not to be a Jewish state.

The Palestinian people have suffered more from the ill-advised decisions of their leaders than from the actions of Israel.

Back to the present: Hamas commits a double war crime every time it fires a lethal rocket at Israeli civilians from areas populated by its civilians, who they use as human shields. Israel responds proportionally in self-defense, as President Biden has emphasized. The Israel Defense Forces go to extraordinary lengths to try to minimize civilian casualties among Palestinians, despite Hamas’ policy of using civilian buildings — hospitals, schools, mosques, and high-rise buildings — to store, fire and plan their unlawful rockets and incendiary devices. Yet the hard left blames Israel alone, and many on the center-left create a moral equivalence between democratic Israel and terrorist Hamas.

Why? The answer is clear and can be summarized in one word: Jews.

The enemy of the Kurds, the Tibetans, the Uyghurs and the Chechens are not — unfortunately for them — the Jews. Hence, there is little concern for their plight. If the perceived enemy of the Palestinians were not the Jews, there would be little concern for their plight as well. This was proved by the relative silence that greeted the massacre of Palestinians by Jordan during “Black September” in 1970, or the killings of Palestinian Authority leaders in Gaza during the Hamas takeover in 2007. There has been relative silence, too, about the more than 4,000 Palestinians — mostly civilians— killed by Syria during that country’s current civil war. It is only when Jews or their nation are perceived to be oppressing Palestinians that the left seems to care about them.

While the United States provides financial support for Israel, we also provide massive support for Jordan and Egypt. Even if the United States were to end support for Israel, the demonization of Israel by the hard left would not end.

The left singles out the Palestinians not because of the merits of their case but, rather, because of the alleged demerits of Israel and the double standard universally applied to Jews. That is the sad reality.

Former CIA director John Brennan as much as admitted this double standard when he complained in a tweet about the alleged lack of empathy by Jews: “I always found it difficult to fathom how a nation of people deeply scared by a history replete with prejudice, religious persecution, & unspeakable violence perpetrated against them would not be the empathetic champions of those whose rights & freedoms are still abridged.”

As Seth Frantzman, a writer for the Jerusalem Post, aptly put it: “In his telling of it, he implied that Jews must have special empathy for others while non-Jews have no special need to be empathetic. Brennan has not … held other countries to a higher standard based on the ethnic and religious origins of their citizens … In short, because Jews endured genocide, they have to live according to a higher standard than those who perpetrated genocide.”

This “benevolent” double standard may sound kinder than the malevolent double standard imposed by members of “the Squad” and others, but it has the same effect: it demands that Israel do less to protect its citizens from rockets and terrorism than is demanded from other countries. The same standard must be demanded of Israel as is demanded of other countries defending their citizens. In particular, the same standard must be demanded of Palestinians and their leaders as is demanded of other groups seeking the moral support of good people.

As of now, the Palestinians have failed to meet that standard.

I support the legitimate rights of Palestinians to a peaceful state, not so much because their history and actions merit it more than others, but because it would be good for peace in the region and for Israel. But I refuse to prioritize it over other more, or equally, compelling claims just because Jews are on the other side.


source: thehill.com/opinion/international/553873-why-does-the-hard-left-glorify-the-palestinians

[wango]

Thank you for the above. My only comment would be the amount of wealthy that I know that are Jews, dems and fully support Israel. I can’t think of a single person that I talk to or know that is overly sympathetic to nor glorifies Palestine. We simply know or are married to, too many Jews and will give them the benefit of the doubt. The entertainment industry (Hollywood) has and is very “Jewish” and Democrat/left leaning. You did mention “hard left” though, perhaps I’m classifying those I am familiar with incorrectly.

Living out here in Los Angeles, our newspaper appears pretty balanced & hasn’t glorified the Palestinians by any means. I’m assuming you classify us as being liberal and left.

Again thank you for that info Beetle. I wish that I personally would see a hint of it to give it more validation.

[Ernst]

Quick rundown of how we got here

[Hughinn]

At the end of the day, Palestine was colonized by Israel.

The only argument anyone who disagrees can make, is that God gave that land to the Jewish people, therefore it was justified to colonize and displace them. If that's a person's opinion and beliefs, then so be it. Admit it, and move on.

Yes, that worthless little piece of dirt has been fought over historically for centuries.

But in modern times, it's currently colonized by Israel, and the last owners/inhabitants were the Palestinians, who have been place in apartheid so that the Israeli/Jewish people could have thier land, that they believe God gave to them.

[Hughinn]

Ray Charles could've seen this coming.

And to think of the massive corporate support and political backing from the democrat party and thier billionaire shareholders that BLM has. One has to wonder just how deep this support goes. Of course the leadership of the democrat party has no fixed official stance in any ideology, save for that which increases thier power and influence, and they would literally profess any ideology that helped them to that end. But most of thier rank and file do believe what they've been told to believe. And attempting to change it too fast could disenfranchise many of them.

The militants of the democrat party have now declared Israel a "white supremacist" colony. And by textbook liberal/DNC academic definition, its hard to argue against it.

They've pushed an ignorant and childish ideology to advance thier financial interests. And now, they're trapped in a position where that same ideology may become bad for business. Of course the democrat party doesn't believe the ideologies they push. But thier followers do. So flip flopping like the party has done in the past could be very difficult. At least to flip flop in time enough to aid Israel as the Arab world begins to openly unite against them

The plot thickens.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bla...orists-israeli

[Beetlegeuse]

Deep Dive (May 18): Pompeo: Iran Made Itself Clear on Israel–Hamas Conflict

...Former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said, “The Iranians have made clear they have genocidal intent.” He added, “They want to wipe Israel off the face of the planet, and they use proxy forces—people like the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hamas.”...



'Shocking' Phone Call Between IDF and Gazan Reveals 'Entire Conflict in a Nutshell'

A short but “shocking” phone call between the Israeli Defense Forces and a Palestinian in Gaza reveals “the entire conflict in a nutshell,” according to Ben Shapiro.

In the recording, the IDF is attempting to warn about an impending strike, pleading for the man to evacuate the building before the bombing because civilians are present.

“I can’t get all of the people out I need at least two hours to get them out,” the Palestinian says.

“Listen, we are going to bomb the building,” the member of the IDF replies.

“You want to bomb? Bomb whatever you want,” the man responds.

“No, brother, we need to do everything we can so you don’t die,” the IDF member says.

“We want to die,” the Palestinian answers.

“But you have a responsibility for children’s lives,” the Israeli pushes back.

“If the children need to die then they’ll die,” the Palestinian counters.

“God forbid, God forbid, what do you want, to die?!” the soldier asks.

“This is how we reveal your cruelty,” the man responds.

IOW, we reveal your cruelty by forcing you either to kill our innocents or sit idly by while we kill your's.

Complete audio (with English subtitles) is here.

[Hughinn]

I've always found enormous irony in many Americans who call people like Hamas and Al queda "cowards".

Anybody willing to give thier life without hesitation for what they're fighting for and what they believe in is not a coward. They may we'll be justifiably called alot of things. But "cowards" is not one of them.

On the flip side, how many "brave" american citizens are willing to die for what they believe? And how many sit back, cringing under the blankets of comfort and excess, and only poking thier noses out just long enough to make an impotent fuckin threat before ducking thier heads and falling in line?

"Cowards"?

Indeed. When observed objectively these same "brave" souls wouldn't give up a moderate measure of their own comfort for what they believe. Much less thier very lives.

I'd extend some basic logic to those "brave" souls accusing others like Hamas of cowardice : history shows that Hamas can win. Because they'll fight for what they believe until they do.

History shows, those "brave" souls I'm speaking of, cannot ever win. Because, victory and/or defeat are a temporary state of affairs, to be renegotiated anytime conditions allow. But it requires the willingness to sacrifice in order to test your chances at any given time.

Cowardice is a permanent state of affairs, corraled by impotence and neverending perpetual defeat. Only an inch at a time and one small humiliation at a time. Constantly suffering small defeat but never with any chance of victory.

[wango]

Regrettably we have people in our own country that would love to wipe the Jews off of the planet. Hatred and prejudice are prevalent just about everywhere.

Americans have killed women and children while not sitting idly by; in fact they never gave them a heads up ahead of time.

I wonder if the Proud boys are raising funds for Israel? No? You mean they are pro-Palestine/Hamas?

[Cuz]

Regrettably we have people in our own country that would love to wipe the Jews off of the planet. Hatred and prejudice are prevalent just about everywhere.

Americans have killed women and children while not sitting idly by; in fact they never gave them a heads up ahead of time.

I wonder if the Proud boys are raising funds for Israel? No? You mean they are pro-Palestine/Hamas?

Dont know about the proud boys but black lies matter has made it official they support Hamas

[wango]

Dont know about the proud boys but black lies matter has made it official they support Hamas

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, the free speech thing. I have no issue with either group, speak your mind, it’s what we do in the USA.

[Ernst]

I've always found enormous irony in many Americans who call people like Hamas and Al queda "cowards".

Anybody willing to give thier life without hesitation for what they're fighting for and what they believe in is not a coward. They may we'll be justifiably called alot of things. But "cowards" is not one of them.

On the flip side, how many "brave" american citizens are willing to die for what they believe? And how many sit back, cringing under the blankets of comfort and excess, and only poking thier noses out just long enough to make an impotent fuckin threat before ducking thier heads and falling in line?

"Cowards"?

Indeed. When observed objectively these same "brave" souls wouldn't give up a moderate measure of their own comfort for what they believe. Much less thier very lives.

I'd extend some basic logic to those "brave" souls accusing others like Hamas of cowardice : history shows that Hamas can win. Because they'll fight for what they believe until they do.

History shows, those "brave" souls I'm speaking of, cannot ever win. Because, victory and/or defeat are a temporary state of affairs, to be renegotiated anytime conditions allow. But it requires the willingness to sacrifice in order to test your chances at any given time.

Cowardice is a permanent state of affairs, corraled by impotence and neverending perpetual defeat. Only an inch at a time and one small humiliation at a time. Constantly suffering small defeat but never with any chance of victory.

Anyone who hides behind innocents or baits a military to attack soft targets full of civilians simply to create a public relations nuisance is definitely a coward in my book.

[Hughinn]

Anyone who hides behind innocents or baits a military to attack soft targets full of civilians simply to create a public relations nuisance is definitely a coward in my book.

Like maybe the IRA?

[Ernst]

Like maybe the IRA?

Perhaps it's my upbringing talking more than fact, but I don't remember the IRA launching rocket attacks on totally civilian targets from schools and hospitals. Melting into the populace is a little different than that...

[Ernst]

Though I guess it's also worth remembering that the "IRA" was a big group with lots of factions. Certainly some splinter groups had less appealing tactics and ideals.

I'm sure there are lots of different pro-Palestine groups out there. Not really sure if Hamas is fractious and divided or pretty solid one group with a singular thought and mission. Something to reseach, I guess. If I want the gov watching my electronic communications really closely, that is. ;p

[Cuz]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, the free speech thing. I have no issue with either group, speak your mind, it’s what we do in the USA.

I agree with you Wango we can have all opinions. But let me give you an example of a problematic opinion

Sample 1 i like chocolate ice cream and you like vanilla

Sample 2 i side with the KKK and you side with BLM...

Which opinion do you feel people will have a reaction too?

[Hughinn]

Perhaps it's my upbringing talking more than fact, but I don't remember the IRA launching rocket attacks on totally civilian targets from schools and hospitals. Melting into the populace is a little different than that...

Is it?

The IRA on occasions intentionally targeted civilians, including women and children to draw English authorities to the area, so they could detonate IED's. From nearby trying to maximize casualties, then melt into the population.

https://qr.ae/pGyNVq

Although the scale of the conflict was smaller than hamas/isreal, so accordingly the numbers and weapons were different, the roles are not that much different really. IRA/Hamas vs occupiers in thier nation England/Israel. Very similar.

Like you had said before, the roles of villains and heroes depends on perspective.

And nobody willing to die and kill for thier cause is a coward.

Hamas was and is elected by the Palestinians. To many Palestinians hamas is the heroes. Amd isreal the cowards. Because it's all perspective. Desperate people take drastic and desperate measures. Whether they're hamas, the IRA, or the U.S government.

[Hughinn]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, the free speech thing. I have no issue with either group, speak your mind, it’s what we do in the USA.

Thats not true Wango.

I've seen you on multiple occasions railing about the "white supremacist" problem in southern California. Which, amounted to about a few dozen individuals in a rag-tag type parade, opposed by a few hundred "counter protesters" who were better organized, more numerous and by most accounts, acted more violently.

But yet, you railed on about one side alone.

You've never said anything about the cities in socal burning because of BLM.

You've got a clear and undeniable bias my friend. You're ideology has you seeing boogeymen in the dark.

But, everyone is entitled to thier opinions. And I respect yours. You're not the only blind leftist here. But your always respectful and try to see all sides. Wish the same could be said for us all.

[Beetlegeuse]

In case you were wondering, VDH is protestant.

Why Does the Left Hate Israel?

Hating Israel has become the surrogate Western way of hating itself.

By Victor Davis Hanson || May 19, 2021

As over 3,000 rockets are fired into Israel by Hamas, the establishment of the Democratic Party seems paralyzed over how to respond to the latest Middle East war.

It is not just that they fear that the squad, Black Lives Matter, the shock troops of Antifa, and the woke institutions such as professional sports, academia, and the media are now unapologetically anti-Israel.

They are in terror also that anti-Israelism is becoming synonymous with rank anti-Semitism. And soon the Democratic Party will end up disdained as much as was the British Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn.

The new core of the Democrats, as emblemized by Representatives Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.), Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.), and Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.), has in the past questioned the patriotism of American Jews who support Israel, and often has had to apologize for puerile anti-Semitic rants.

The Left in general believes we should judge harshly even the distant past without exemptions. Why then, in venomous, knee-jerk fashion, does it fixate on a nation born from the Holocaust, while favoring Israel’s enemies, who were on the side of the Nazis in World War II?

It was not just that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin al-Husseini, was a Nazi sympathizer. Egypt, for example, welcomed ex-Nazis for their hatred of Jews and their military expertise—whether the infamous death camp doctor Aribert Ferdinand Heim or Waffen-SS henchman Otto Skorzeny. The Hamas charter still reads like it is cribbed from Hitler’s Mein Kampf.

The Left claims it champions consensual government and believes the United States must use its soft power clout to isolate autocracies. But the Palestinian Authority and Hamas refuse to hold free and regularly scheduled elections. If an Israeli strong man ever suspended free elections and ruled through brutality, U.S. aid would be severed within days.

If history and democratic values cannot explain fully the hatred of Israel on the Left, perhaps human rights violations do. But here too there is another radical asymmetry. Arab Israeli citizens enjoy far greater constitutional protections than do Arabs living under either the Palestinian Authority or Hamas.

Is the Left bothered by the allies of Hamas? After all, most are autocracies such as Iran, North Korea, China, and Russia.

We return then to other reasons for the woke furor directed toward Israel.

In part, the Western Left despises the unapologetically successful—as if they are always beneficiaries of unfair privilege. Underdog Israel was not so hated from 1947-1967. Then it was poor, more socialist, and in danger of being extinguished by its many neighboring enemies.

But after the victories in the 1967 and 1973 wars, the Israeli military proved unconquerable, no matter how large the numbers, wealth, and armaments of its many enemies.

For the Left, Israel’s current strength, confidence, and success mean it cannot be seen as a victim, but only as a victimizer. The more its Iron Dome missile defenses knock down the flurry of Hamas rockets, the more its planes take out those who launched them, so all the more the Left bizarrely believes Israel wins too easily and acts “disproportionately.”

In the virtue-signaling world of the contemporary West, Israel has become caricatured as playing the role of the American white police, the Palestinians a foreign version of the oppressed Black Lives Matter movement. The Palestinians then are woke, the Israelis not so much.

The Left also has a strange idea of current “imperialism” and “colonialism.” The general rule is that Westerners cannot settle in numbers in the non-West. But the reversal is certainly not true. Millions of Middle Easterners are welcomed into Belgium, France, Germany, the U.K., and the United States.

Yet, Jews have been in what is modern-day Israel since nearly the dawn of civilization. And their 1947 borders only grew after they were attacked and threatened with extinction.

Again, the Left always claims that its anti-Israelism has had nothing to do with anti-Semitism.

But it is almost impossible now to make that distinction when woke criticism obsesses over democratic Israel and ignores far greater oppressors and oppressed elsewhere.

Why are there no demonstrations in major Western cities damning the Communist Chinese government that has put 1 million Muslim Uighurs in camps? Why are the world’s millions of former refugees—the Volga Germans, the East Prussians, the Cypriot Greeks—long ago forgotten, and yet the Palestinians alone deified as perpetually displaced by the Jews?

Our formal NATO ally, Turkey, received little global pushback for its treatment of the Kurds, or its frequent intolerance of religious minorities. Why then does the Jewish state alone always earn such venom?

Hating democratic Israel while it is under attack is not just a reflection of the new woke and ethically bankrupt Left. It is also a symptom of a deeper pathology in the West, one of moral equivalence, amoral relativism—and self-loathing.

Hating Israel, then, has become the surrogate Western way of hating oneself.

[wango]

I agree with you Wango we can have all opinions. But let me give you an example of a problematic opinion

Sample 1 i like chocolate ice cream and you like vanilla

Sample 2 i side with the KKK and you side with BLM...

Which opinion do you feel people will have a reaction too?

I’m just saying that’s here in the states we have people looking at the issue differently and take different sides. But we have a right to feel that way and state our opinions. So, BLM is taking the side of a group they feel are the oppressed. Out here in Los Angeles we had an owner for the NBA team called the Clippers. He was Jewish and was blatantly racist to blacks. So badly that the league forced him to sell the team. Hollywood is still dominated by Jews and every day here we are hammered with the fact that there are not enough blacks involved. So BLM sides with who they feel is oppressed. I don’t see it as a huge political statement.

Seriously, you plant a group of people (that most of the world didn’t want too many of them living in their country) in the middle of those that hate them and are surprised that there is war. Oh and by the way, only allow one side to arm themselves and wonder why the other side is so pissed? You couldn’t make up a more f’d up situation. So now everyone suddenly loves the Jewish people? Sure we do, because they are armed, dangerous and will go after somebody we now dislike more.

I personally have no problem with the idea of the proud boys. I had a thread here where I stated that I was proud to be a white American and was told that it was a stupid concept. I support taking pride in who you are BUT not by doing it at the expense of others. I brought them up specifically because of another post on this thread.

Peace to you Cuz.

[wango]

Thats not true Wango.

I've seen you on multiple occasions railing about the "white supremacist" problem in southern California. Which, amounted to about a few dozen individuals in a rag-tag type parade, opposed by a few hundred "counter protesters" who were better organized, more numerous and by most accounts, acted more violently.

But yet, you railed on about one side alone.

You've never said anything about the cities in socal burning because of BLM.

You've got a clear and undeniable bias my friend. You're ideology has you seeing boogeymen in the dark.

But, everyone is entitled to thier opinions. And I respect yours. You're not the only blind leftist here. But your always respectful and try to see all sides. Wish the same could be said for us all.

You really don’t understand the political climate in some regions out here. However, I see and respect the point you are making. In that post, I was objecting to it because I felt that it came off as intimidation not a show of pride. It only takes one to intimidate, it doesn’t require an army nor organization to make a point, particularly when that point has the weight of history behind it.

You would be surprised just how biased that I can be and you would be dead wrong if you thought you knew what my biases really are

[Ernst]

Well Hughinn, that was certainly the viewpoint of someone with a huge axe to grind with the IRA. History doesn't quite remember what he cited that way but I suppose you certainly made your point about it depending on perspective.

[Hughinn]

Well Hughinn, that was certainly the viewpoint of someone with a huge axe to grind with the IRA. History doesn't quite remember what he cited that way but I suppose you certainly made your point about it depending on perspective.

Thank you for being open-minded enough to see my point Ernst. That's a great credit to your personality. I wish more people had that.

I personally don't have an axe to grind with the IRA. In fact I respect what they fought for and why.

I also understand the plight of Hamas.

"you can't trust freedom
When it's not in your hands
When everybody's fightin'
For their promised land"....Axel Rose.