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Is there any evidence that cycling Test causes prostate cancer ?
Obviously if there is a link, someone doing 800mg\a week is doing more potential harm than someone doing 300
If there is evidence, is it somthing that happens much earlier in life than is usually seen, or are you just increasing your risk for when you get older ?
Yes, there is evidence that test can or might cause or contribute to prostate cancer, but not that it will cause prostate cancer.
The prescribing literature for both Delatestryl (enanthate) and Depo-Testosterone (cyp), the two legal brands of injectable test in the U.S., state in part:
CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY
Endogenous androgens are responsible for the normal growth and development of the male sex organs and for maintenance of secondary sex characteristics. These effects include growth and maturation of prostate...
CONTRAINDICATIONS
Androgens are contraindicated in men with carcinomas of the breast or with known or suspected carcinomas of the prostate...
The prescribing information for Androgel contains an additional statement that is relevant:
Geriatric patients and other patients with clinical or demographic characteristics that are recognized to be associated with an increased risk of prostate cancer should be evaluated for the presence of prostate cancer prior to initiation of testosterone replacement therapy. In men receiving testosterone replacement therapy, surveillance for prostate cancer should be consistent with current practices for eugonadal men...
So, based on the standards used by the manufacturers of legal test, it would appear that testosterone, at the very least, can increase the risk of prostate cancer, or can aggravate prostate cancer in those who have already been diagnosed.
When I use test, I regularly have PSA (prostate specific antigen) labwork done. I have never seen an increase in my PSA levels, but that does not mean it could not happen. There's an old expression to the effect that if something happens 1% of 1% of the time but it happens to you, then the incidence to you has become 100%.
Does that mean you should not do test? If you are not in a high-risk group (meaning if you have not been diagnosed with prostate cancer), no. But it does mean that you should take the normal steps to ensure that it does not have a negative impact on you.
As for specifics, i.e., whether you increase the risk of prostate cancer at an early age or down the road when you are older, I am not aware of any statistical results. (Which doesn't mean they don't exist, it merely means I'm in a lazy mood today. :)) BUt life, as always, is a crapshoot, so anyone considering test or any other type of cycle should do a risk-benefit analysis and make an informed decision.
Thanks TNT
I did have my PSA done just prior to my current cycle and it was not elevated.
I was going to have it tested again during my cycle, or should I wait until after ?
Thanks again
I lean toward other blood tests during the cycle so you can monitor your progress and the impact of the AS - tests such as creatinine and hemoglobin, for example, as well as total test levels.
However, if you did not have these done prior to the cycle, then you really ave no baseline to reference (although you would be able to tell if the tests are outside normal range).
Regarding the total testosterone, this lab test can be skewed, depending on your dosing schedule. As anyone who takes test medically knows, you have two levels: peak and trough (as in a horse's trough). The peak level occurs 24-48 hours after a test injection, and the trough level occurs just before an injection. If you're shooting every seven days, for example, your trough level occurs seven days after your last injection, but before your next injection. And the difference between peak and trough levels can be very significant. Also, depending on how much test you're doing as part of a finite cycle (as opopsed to therapeutic doses), you're likely to find your total testosterone level through the roof anyway - so abnormally high that it doesn't even come close to the highest point of normal range.
(I recently experimented with this. Doing 150 mg. of test every seven days for a few weeks, I did both peak level and a trough level labwork. My trough was in the mid-300's, and my peak was in the 900 range. Quite a difference. On the other hand, when I took cycle-level doses and did labwork randomly, my level was almost 1,500.)
As far as the PSA, any change in prostate usually comes more slowly, so you should be fine waiting until, say, 30 days after your cycle. Just as important, though, is to let your doctor give you the finger (yes, the notorious DRE - digital rectal exam), since benign prostate enlargement may not show up on a PSA.
Dang TNT...reading the above post..liking the comments and then wammo...DRE...run for cover! Nevertheless, I'd rather have a DRE as recommended by the medical establishment rather than be a woman and have a monthly menstral cycle, periodic gyno exams, the pains of childbirth, etc... Let us not forget that it was Eve that took the first bite of the apple. Still shuttering!
Rousta!
LDSlifter
"Have you checked your "females" today?"
I always have fun with this issue because most guys quiver when they consider the DRE (digital rectal exam). The funniest thing is when someone writes something along the lines of, "If you let your doctor do it, make sure he doesn't have both of his hands on your shoulders." :DQuote:
Originally posted by LDSlifter
Dang TNT...reading the above post..liking the comments and then wammo...DRE...run for cover
But the DRE is the foundational test for prostate health. I know it's a pain in the ass (ba-da-bump!), but if I ever went to a doctor for a general physical exam and he or she didn't do a DRE, I would find another doctor.
By the way, the reason I advocate for this so strongly is that my father got prostate cancer ten years ago, and our family doctor first determined that something was amiss because he did a DRE. My dad did radiation (the best option at that time), and today he is cancer free, right down to having normal PSA levels. Prostate cancer is the most common type of cancer in men, and it's also the most curable - if it's caught early.
So guys, my wish for every one of you is that you have a finger stuck up your butt . . . by a competent medical professional, of course. :wg:
For what it's worth, I have a general exam once a year, because I'm lucky enough to have insurance that pays for it. So I get the ol' finger up the butt once a year (invariably telling my doctor that it was the biggest thrill I had that morning - we all say goofy things as the doc is doing it). But I also get a PSA donw twice a year - not just because of the family history in terms of my dad, but because I happen to shoot test. Statistically, the chance is that I will not get prostate cancer, but if there's any chance at all, you can bet your finger-schtupped butt that I want to catch it before it does me in.
:no: <---- Mean doctor threatening you with his finger.
___________________
P.S. By the way, LDS, I ust picked up Shippen's book (The Testosterone Syndrome) yesterday. I'm sure I"ll have a comment or two when I've finished reading it. (Like, "Pellets, my ass.") :D
I agree with TNT on this one. Early detection is the key to curing cancer of any kinda. My dad was just diagnosed with prostate cancer yesterday. My Mom called me last night to give me the news. He's had high PSA levels for about 5 years and he's had all kinds of test and probes since. His last PSA level was 10 and the last specimen they took from his prostate was cancerous. I won't know how bad it is or if it is spreading till next week. I only hope the they caught it soon enough to help.
Make sure you guys get tested every year like TNT said earlier. Just remember being a little uncomfortable for a while can save your life.
You know what's fun to do? After you Doc' gives you a DRE, thank him and ask him if he is doing anything after work and, if not, would he like to have dinner and catch a movie!
Heh, heh, heh. Freak's 'em out every time!
Great post TNT and very appropriate for us over 30 group. After all total health is more than just looking good.
TNT or anyone that knows. What age should you start DRE and PSA testing? keep in mind, it runs in my family now. I've heard conflicting data on this one. Some say 35 then some say 40 or 45.
The DRE should be a part of a physical exam at any age.Quote:
Originally posted by RON
TNT or anyone that knows. What age should you start DRE and PSA testing? keep in mind, it runs in my family now. I've heard conflicting data on this one. Some say 35 then some say 40 or 45.
The old standard for the PSA was to do it starting at age 50, or at age 40 for those with a family history of prostate cancer. The new standard is to do it starting at age 45, or age 35 for those with a family history of prostate cancer. The test should generally be done annually.
My recommendation, if you have a family history of prostate cancer: I recommend a baseline PSA at any age. If someone close to you has or has had prostate cancer, it will tend to be on your mind more than a person who has never been impacted by it. Therefore, even if it's only for your own peace of mind, get a PSA at an age if you fall into this group. Because it's one thing to believe you don't have it, but it's always cool to hear from a medical professional that you don't have it.
Thanks TNT. Do you think I should wait till post cycle?
There's no reason not to do so if you are already in your cycle.Quote:
Originally posted by RON
Thanks TNT. Do you think I should wait till post cycle?
The main reason I recommend a baseline PSA prior to cycle is that it shows your prostate specific antigen levels naturally. Therefore, if you do a PSA after your cycle and have a high PSA, you know whether it was from the gear or whether it was high in the first place. It's actually more of a red flag if you have a naturlaly high PSA, because it's more of a clinical indication of your health. If it's low before the cycle and high after the cycle, then you can specifically know that it was due to AS.
In most cases, you will not have a high PSA after a cycle. The PSA is one of the tests we do because of a possibility, not a probability. In other words, the chances of getting prostate cancer from AS are very small, but since we're talking about the most treatable type of cancer you can get (yet the most common, if you are a guy), it's truly a matter of playing it safe. (Lots of guys will have an abnormal PSA as they enter old age - 60's, 70's, 80's, etc. But statistically, it is more often benign prostate growth rather than cancer. Even those who ultimately develop prostate cancer are told by their doctors, "When your time comes, you will propbably die with it, but not from it." But that's only when it is caught early enough.)