PCT, clomid and HCG

[Casanova33]

i am collegiate athlete and i just completed my first cycle. i am 6'4" 295 with around 15% BF. i train for mass right now. i took dbol and test e for a short cycle because of testing reasons. i was wonderin about when to take the hcg and the clomid. i have already started taking the hcg but am confused on the dosages on it(so many different opinions) and when to start taking the clomid after the hcg. ialso so on some other sites that they recommend using clenbuterol post cycle. its out of the system in 5 days so i don't have to worry about the testing for that, but in my case do u guys think i should take clenbuterol this cycle or next cycle if at all.

[TheMudMan]

There was no need for HCG with your cycle....... It's not that hard on HPTA..... but you can run 500iu's Sat, Sun.......... Now for the clomid 2 weeks after the last Enan injection you would start.

You're worried about the detection time for clen......... bro d-bol can be detected up to 5 weeks and Enan up to 3 months....... but clen's is aroiund 5 days or so.

[jbigdog69]

Found this a few months ago!!! Peace
IntensityX
Clomid and HCG
By Nick and Bigfella - MuscleTalk.co.uk moderators
Nick can be contacted through the Muscletalk forum for any questions or comments.

One of the most frequently asked questions on MuscleTalk is how to use Clomid and HCG correctly.

(A note to Americans - when I say 'oestrogen' I mean 'estrogen' - we spell it correctly in the UK!)

Why Bodybuilders Use Clomid
Clomid is a generic name for Clomiphene Citrate and is a synthetic oestrogen. It is prescribed medically to aid ovulation in low fertility females. Another generic name is Serophene.

Most anabolic steroids, especially the androgens, cause inhibition of the body's own testosterone production. When a bodybuilder comes off a steroid cycle, natural testosterone production is zero and the levels of the steroids taken in the blood are diminishing. This leaves the ratios of catabolic : anabolic hormones in the blood high, hence the body is in a state of catabolism, and, as a result, much of the muscle tissue that was gained on the cycle is now going to be lost.

Clomid stimulates the hypothalamus to, in turn stimulant the anterior pituitary gland (aka hypophysis) to release gonadotrophic hormones. The gonadotrophic hormones are follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH - aka interstitial cell stimulating hormone (ICSH)). FSH stimulates the testes to produce more testosterone, and LH stimulates them to secrete more testosterone. This feedback mechanism is known as the hypothalamic-pituitary-testes axis (HPTA), and results in an increase of the body's own testosterone production and blood levels rise, to, in part, compensate for the diminishing levels of exogenous steroids. This is vital to minimise post cycle muscle losses.

Not all steroids do cause shut down of the feedback mechanism. Everyone is different and you must also take into account how long you have been using a certain steroid and at what dose in order to determine if you need Clomid or not.

Clomid also works as an anti-oestrogen. As it's a weak synthetic oestrogen, it binds to oestrogen receptors on cells blocking them to oestrogen in the blood. This minimises the negative effects like gynecomastia and water retention that may be a result of oestrogen that has aromatised from testosterone.

It's effect as an anti-oestrogen are quite weak though, and it should not be relied upon if you are going to be using androgenic steroids that aromatise at a rapid rate, or if you are pre-disposed to gynecomastia. Arimidex and Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) are far more effective anti-oestrogens.

Important note: Clomid does not, as is often thought, stimulate the release of natural testosterone, but rather works at reducing the oestrogenic inhibition caused by the steroid cycle. It does this in a similar manner to the way it and Nolvadex block oestrogen receptors in nipples to combat gyno development, i.e. by blocking the oestrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary thus reducing the inhibition from the elevated oestrogen. This allows LH levels to return to normal, or even above normal levels, and in turn, natural testosterone levels to also normalise.

Inhibition of the HPTA is caused by either elevated androgen, oestrogen or progesterone levels. On cessation of the steroid cycle, androgen levels begin to fall and Clomid dosing is normally commenced according to the half-life of the longest acting drug in the system (see below).

This may also explain the reason individuals often find post-deca recovery more difficult, as the progesterone presence is untouched by the Clomid. We know that Clomid and Nolvadex (being very similar chemically) are both ineffective with regard to reducing progesterone related gyno, so it is reasonable to assume that Clomid has little effect against progesterone levels.

Clomid During A Cycle
When we use anabolic steroids, the level of androgens in the body rises causing the androgen receptors to become more highly activated, and through the HPTA, a signal tells our testes to stop producing testosterone. During a cycle the body has far higher than normal levels of androgens and, as long as this level is high enough, Clomid will not help to keep natural testosterone production up. It will be almost all but completely shut off, in theory.

Some heavy androgen users, however, do advocate a small burst of Clomid mid-cycle, though it must be hard for them to say if it really of any benefit, due to the amount of gear they are using. Therefore, the only purpose of Clomid during a cycle is as an anti-estrogen.


When To Start Clomid
The correct time to commence Clomid depends on the type and cycle of steroids you have been using. Different steroids have different half-lifes (indicates the time a substance diminishes in blood), and Clomid administration should be taken accordingly.

As we have seen above, Clomid taken when androgen levels in our blood are still high will be a waste. It is crucial to wait for androgen levels to fall before implementing our Clomid therapy. However, if taken too late we could possibly lose gains.

The list below determines when you should start Clomid. Select from the list any steroids you've used in your cycle and whichever one has the latest starting point is the time to commence Clomid. For example, if Dianabol, Sustanon and Winstrol were cycled, the time for administering Clomid should be 3 weeks post cycle, as Sustanon remains active in the body for the longest period of time.

Steroid Time after
last administration Length of
Clomid Cycle
Anadrol50/Anapolan50: 8 - 12 hours 3 weeks
Deca durabolan: 3 weeks 4 weeks
Dianabol: 4 - 8 hours 3 weeks
Equipoise: 17 - 21 days 3 weeks
Finajet/Trenbolone: 3 days 3 weeks
Primabolan depot: 10 - 14 days 2 weeks
Sustanon: 3 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Cypionate: 2 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Enanthate/Testaviron: 2 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Propionate: 3 days 3 weeks
Testosterone Suspension: 4 - 8 hours 2-3 weeks
Winstrol 8 - 12 hours 2-3 weeks


How To Take Clomid
Clomid has a long half-life (possibly 5 days), so there is no need to split up doses throughout the day. If Sustanon has been used and Clomid is commenced 3 weeks after the last injection, I would estimate that androgen levels are low enough to start sending the correct signals. If androgen levels are still a little high, we need to start at a high enough amount that will work or help, even if androgen levels are still a little high. Try 300mg on day 1; then use 100mg for the next 10 days; followed by 50mg for 10 days.

Using HCG
It is our opinion that HCG is probably one of the most misunderstood and misused compounds in bodybuilding. Hopefully this information will go some way towards rectifying that for the members of MuscleTalk. HCG stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin and is not a steroid, but a natural peptide hormone which develops in the placenta of pregnant women during pregnancy to controls the mother's hormones. (Incidentally, this is the reason you may hear of people testing for growth hormone (HGH) with a pregnancy testing kit - If their HGH shows 'pregnant', they've been ripped-off with cheaper HCG - but we digress slightly).

Its action in the male body is like that of LH, stimulating the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone even in the absence of endogenous LH. HCG is therefore used during longer or heavier steroid cycles to maintain testicular size and condition, or to bring atrophied (shrunken) testicles back up to their original condition in preparation for post-cycle Clomid therapy. This process is necessary because atrophied testicles produce reduced levels of natural testosterone, this situation should be rectified prior to post-cycle Clomid therapy.

HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production.

The typically observed dosing of 2000 to 5000IU every 4 to 5 days causes such an increase in oestrogen levels via aromatisation of the natural testosterone that this has been responsible for many cases of gynecomastia.

From the above discussion it is clear that HCG is best used during a cycle, either to:

1) Avoid testicular atrophy, or
2) Rectify the problem of an existing testicular atrophy.

Doses of HCG
Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500iu and 1000iu per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.

Presentation and Administration of HCG
Synthetic HCG is often known as Pregnyl (generic name) and is available in 2500iu and 5000iu (not ideal for the above doses!). Administration of the compound is either by intra-muscular or subcutaneous injection. It comes as a powder which needs to be mixed with the sterile water. The powder is temperature-sensitive prior to mixing and should not be exposed to direct heat. After mixing, it should be kept refrigerated and used within a few weeks - though there are sterility issues which need to be considered after mixing.

Eat,Learn,Train,Grow
IntensityX

[Casanova33]

ya i know the detection times for the dbol and the test. so should i not even bother with the rest of the hcg then. and would clenbuterol be considered next cycle?

[TheMudMan]

You can use the clen durring PCT it will not hurt....... I would save the HCG.

[Casanova33]

save the hcg ok. but i thought you have to keep it in the fridge once you mix it. does hcg go bad after a certain amount of time if you don't keep it in the fridge. also i heard that there is no negative for starting clomid too early but there is one for starting it too late, do you guys have any comments on this.

[jbigdog69]

Use the hcg during the cycle to prevent testicular atrophy. (500iu ew. And use the clomid at the end of the cycle along with clenbuterol for catabolic stages. Here is something for your question on clenbuterol.

What is Clenbuterol?

Clenbuterol is a beta-2 agonist and is used in many countries as a broncodilator
for the treatment of asthma. Because of it's long half life, clenbuterol is not
FDA approved for medical use. It is a central nervous system stimulant and acts
like adrenaline. It shares many of the same side effects as other CNS stimulants
like ephedrine. Contrary to popular belief, Clenbuterol has a half life of 35
hours and not 48 hours.

Dosing and Cycling

Clenbuterol comes in 20mcg tablets, although it is also available in syrup, pump
and injectable form. It's also available as a powder in some areas. Doses are
very dependent on how well the user responds to the side effects, but somewhere
in the range of 4-8 tablets per day for men and 2-4 tablets a day for women is
most common. Clenbuterol loses its thermogenic effects after around 8 weeks when
body temperature drops back to normal. Its anabolic/anti-catabolic properties
fade away at around the 18 day mark. Taking the long half life into
consideration, the most effective way of cycling clen is 2 weeks on/ 2 weeks off
for no more than 12 weeks. Ephedrine or Yohimbine can be used in the off weeks.

Clenbuterol vs Ephedrine vs DNP

Ephedrine will raise metabolic levels by about 2-3 percent and 200mg of DNP
raises metabolic levels by about 30 percent. Clenbuterol raises metabolic levels
about 10 percent and it can raise body temperature several degrees.

DNP is by far the most effective fat burner but many people will never use it
because of the risks associated with it. It also offers no anti-catabolic
benefit. Although it does have anti-catabolic effect, ephedrine's short
half-life prevents it from being all that effective.

As far as side effects, Clenbuterol's are certainly milder than DNP's, and some
would even say milder than an ECA stack. There is no ECA-style crash on
Clenbuterol and many users find it easier on the prostate and sex drive. This
may in part be due to the fact that Clen is generally used for only 2 weeks at a
time.

Side effects

NAUSEA
NERVOUSNESS
DIZZINESS
DROWSINESS
DRY MOUTH
FACIAL FLUSHING
HEADACHE
HEARTBURN
INCREASED BLOOD PRESSURE
INCREASED SWEATING
INSOMNIA
LIGHTHEADEDNESS
MUSCLE CRAMPS
TREMORS
VOMITING
CHEST PAIN

The most significant side effects are muscle cramps, nervousness, headaches, and
increased blood pressure.

Muscle cramps can be avoided by drinking 1.5-2 gallons of water and consuming
bananas and oranges or supplementing with potassium tablets at 200-400mg a
day taken before bed on an empty stomach. Taurine at 3-5grams is a necessity in
minimizing cramps.

Headaches can easily be avoided with Tylenol Extra Strength taking at the first
signs of a headache.

Common Uses

Post-Cycle Therapy: Clen is used post cycle to aid in recovery. It allows the
user to continue eating large amounts of food, without worrying about adding
body fat. It also helps the user maintain more of his strength as well as his
intensity in the gym. Diet: Roughly the same as on cycle.

Fat loss: The most popular use for Clen, it also increases muscle hardness,
vascularity, strength and size on a caloric deficit. For the most significant
fat loss, Clen can be stacked with T3. Diet: A high protein(1.5g per lb of
bodyweight), moderate carb(0.5g to 1g per lb of bodyweight), low fat diet(0.25g
per lb of bodyweight) seems to work best with Clen.

Alternative to Steroids: Clenbuterol has mild steroid-like properties and can be
used by non-AS using bodybuilder to increase LBM as well as strength and muscle
hardness. Diet: A moderate carb, high protein, moderate fat diet work well.

Stimulant/Performance Enhancement: It can be used as a stimulant, but an ECA
stack may be a better choice because of it's much shorter half-life. Diet: To
take full advantage of the stimulatory effects of Clen, carbohydrates must be
included in the diet. Ketogenic diets do not work well in this case.

Precautions: Is Clen for you?

The same precautions that apply to Ephedrine must be applied to Clen, although
some people find ECA stacks are harsher than Clen. It should not be stacked
with other CNS stimulants such as Ephedrine and Yohimbine. These combinations
are unnecessary and potentially dangerous. Caffeine can be used in moderation
before a workout for an extra quick. burst of energy.

A word on Ketotifen

Ketotifen is safe antihistamine used extensively some European countries to
treat asthma and allergies. It can up regulate beta-2-receptors that Clen down
regulates. Basically, it allows users to extend their use of Clen for 6-8 weeks
at a time. 2-3mg a day is ideal, 10mg as found in "superclen" can make users
extremely drowsy. It also increases the effectiveness of Clen so doses must be
adjusted accordingly. The downfall of this drug is its ability to induce
extreme hunger is some people, which is not a desirable state to be in when
dieting.

Cycling Clenbuterol

Most users that report bad side effects and discontinue use are those who use
high doses right at the start of the cycle. The worst side effects occur within
the first 3-4 days of use.

A first time user should not exceed 40mcg the first day. Increase by one tab
until the side effects are not tolerable

Example of a first cycle:

Day1: 20mcg
Day2: 40mcg
Day3: 60mcg
Day4: 80mcg
Day5: 80mcg(Note: Increase the dose only when the side effects are tolerable)
Day6-Day12: 100mcg
Day13: 80 mcg (Tapering is not necessary, but it helps some users get back to
normal gradually)
Day14: 60 mcgs
Day15: off
Day16: off
Day 17: ECA/ NYC stack

Example of a second cycle:

Day1: 60mcg
Day2: 80mcg
Day3: 80mcg
Day4: 100mcg
Day5: 100mcg
Day6-Day12: 120mcg
Day13: 100 mcg
Day14: 80 mcgs
Day15: off
Day16: off
Day 17: ECA/ NYC stack

What else do I need to know?

Taurine MUST be used with Clen at 3-5g daily. Clenbuterol depletes taurine
levels in the liver which stops the conversion of T4 to T3 in the liver.
Taurine allows the user to avoid the dreaded rebound effect and painful muscle
cramps. It's a must with Clen.

Clenbuterol should not be taken too close to a workout. It can interfere with
your breathing and complete ruin your workout. When doing cardio, it's
advisable to stay at a consistent pace and avoid HIIT style routines.

[krol.saven]

I've been reading many forums about when to use HCG and everyone seems to be divided between the following:

Take HCG during cycle and stop a week before PCT
Start taking HCG a couple of weeks before end of cycle and increase dose during PCT
Take HCG only during PCT
Take HCG only during "waiting period" between cycle and PCT

Which advice should I follow? Also, pardon if this is a newbie question but if I'm taking a testosterone enanthate & propionate mix with a relatively short half life (about a week) I can't exactly take nothing a week after my cycle, then take HCG, then wait another week, then start PCT as some have suggested. With my cycle I have PCT planned a week after the last injection of testosterone. I'm confused about dosing for HCG as well. Lots of varying information : /

[austinite]

I've been reading many forums about when to use HCG and everyone seems to be divided between the following:

Take HCG during cycle and stop a week before PCT
Start taking HCG a couple of weeks before end of cycle and increase dose during PCT
Take HCG only during PCT
Take HCG only during "waiting period" between cycle and PCT

Which advice should I follow? Also, pardon if this is a newbie question but if I'm taking a testosterone enanthate & propionate mix with a relatively short half life (about a week) I can't exactly take nothing a week after my cycle, then take HCG, then wait another week, then start PCT as some have suggested. With my cycle I have PCT planned a week after the last injection of testosterone. I'm confused about dosing for HCG as well. Lots of varying information : /

Bro... this thread is nearly a DECADE old. Please don't bump ancient threads. Just start a new one with your questions.