Debate to PCT or not to PCT

[d.b]

Lets here some REAL LIFE experiences...IMHO I don't believe in it...

peace

db

[Latimus]

I have never not done it....so i cant compare it to that....however..i know the body has a lot of estro in it so i take a lot of nolv....and i know that my own test isnt funtioning....so i take clomid and trib to kickstart it......

it costs next to nothing..and is easy to run..why not?

[d.b]

Well some say it actually slows down your recovery time...and you need some estro in your body...

peace

db

[BootyJuice24]

Well, I just did a 5 week cycle of winny...I used SYD Group stuff and shot around 1cc/50 mg eod...I decided I didn't need any PCT and I didn't run nolvadex during the cycle. I just wanted to harden up a bit. Nipples started puffing up a bit about week 3 and haven't gone down at all now. So I must say....PCT will be mandatory as will nolvadex from now on.

[BootyJuice24]

Curious as to people's success with tribulus too.....

[ChemDietMIC]

i have heard some good things with tribulus and ZMA but these were all lab studies. Any personal?

[millionmillionaires]

Can't help you w/ recovery without pct, however I can attest to the efficacy of tribulous. Oh man the boys dig the trib when I'm on cycle.

[tycin]

my 1st cycle i didnt know shlt and didnt do pct and lost everything. it screwed me up for a while. i dont c a reason why not to do it! ur body needs to recover.

[tycin]

Lets here some REAL LIFE experiences...IMHO I don't believe in it...

peace

db

wuts ur reason for not believing in pct?

[mitch428cj]

You get on gear , your natural test production slows down or stops , when you get off gear the quicker you get it back up the more gains you will keep , why would you not do PCT ? regardless of how you do you PCT the fastest your test levels return to normal the better , not doing it would just be stupid and the waste of a cycle

[angelxterminator]

Well, I just did a 5 week cycle of winny...I used SYD Group stuff and shot around 1cc/50 mg eod...I decided I didn't need any PCT and I didn't run nolvadex during the cycle. I just wanted to harden up a bit. Nipples started puffing up a bit about week 3 and haven't gone down at all now. So I must say....PCT will be mandatory as will nolvadex from now on.

First of all, 5 weeks of winstrol is not even a cycle.

Secondly, the people that say pct is not mandatory are uneducated.
Just because they can get away with the higher estrogen levels and their test production being low, doesn't mean everybody else can. I'll bet you $100 that they would have kept more gains and recovered faster if they used some clomid post cycle.

I on the other hand am very sensitive to estrogen, and i am very gyno prone, so not running pct would be disaster. I have to use an aromitase inhibitor wihle on cycle, and high amounts of nolva once i come off due to the estrogenic reboud..

tell your "friends" that "know" why you dont need pct to come and post here, and i will correct everything they say, and have medical journals to back me. I'm sure all they have is "word of mouth"

[Jack87]

All depends what compounds you were running IMO...
I have to be honest with Deca I think it's a must, but
to be honest I have used no PCT after some cycles to
experiement and didn't see much of a difference if Deca
was not part of my cycle...

Lets here some REAL LIFE experiences...IMHO I don't believe in it...

peace

db

[d.b]

Show the journals bro...

peace

db

[Benches505]

All depends what compounds you were running IMO...
I have to be honest with Deca I think it's a must, but
to be honest I have used no PCT after some cycles to
experiement and didn't see much of a difference if Deca
was not part of my cycle...

Interesting, what did the cycle look like where you did not do PCT?

[d.b]

I NEVER PCT when coming off TEST...peroid...

peace

db

[nsa]

And what are your stats? And lift #'s?

[nsa]

I personally don't see a reason not to do PCT. Why let your testosterone levels get back to normal levels on their own, taking significantly longer than using nolvadex and clomid to get your test levels back to normal range in about 2-3 weeks depending on what your running. I would much rather do pct and keep my hard earned gains, than not spend the money on some nolvadex and clomid(and thats all i can see as the benefit to not doing it, saving a few dollars.) Go to an Endocrinologist and ask them about it, i assure you they will tell you that it is better to use some compound to restore testosterone levels then let them go back to normal (or stay low forever) on their own.

[Spoon]

i wouldnt know becasue i always do pct. an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. id rather be right than proven wrong in the future bro, its so convenient to take i honestly dont care if it works or not but i aint willing to find out the hard way.

[d.b]

There is no medical evidence that Clomid brings back testosterone levels ...And if anybody has any medical journals that prove otherwise post them...

peace

db

[d.b]

And what are your stats? And lift #'s?

Why does that matter...i don't lift to see how much i can lift...i lift to stay fit...

peace

db

[justincredible]

Just one of many to prove that pct is effective in raising levels of test, LH, FSH. Search: Pheednos pct.

Case for Clomid

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1985 Nov;61(5):842-5

Evidence for a role of endogenous estrogen in the hypothalamic control of gonadotropin secretion in men.

Winters SJ, Troen P.

To examine the mechanism by which endogenous estrogens inhibit gonadotropin secretion in men, blood samples were drawn every 10 min for 12 h in five men before and at the completion of 3 weeks of treatment with the estrogen antagonist clomiphene citrate (50 mg twice daily). Samples were analyzed for LH and alpha-subunit by RIA. Clomiphene produced a 3-fold rise in circulating LH levels, which was associated with a 80% increase in pulse frequency and a 70% increase in pulse amplitude. Immunoreactive alpha-subunit secretion was also pulsatile before and after clomiphene treatment. Mean alpha-levels rose 70%, together with a 39% increase in pulse frequency and a 41% increase in pulse amplitude. Circulating testosterone and estradiol levels increased 2-fold and FSH levels increased 3-fold after clomiphene treatment. Insofar as each LH and uncombined alpha-subunit pulse reflects a LHRH secretory episode, our data indicate that endogenous estrogens tonically restrain the hypothalamic release of LHRH. From these results and those of previous studies, we conclude that estrogens as well as androgens are important in the testicular feedback inhibition of the hypothalamic oscillator that governs pulsatile gonadotropin secretion.


J Androl 1991 Jul-Aug;12(4):258-63

The effects of normal aging on the response of the pituitary-gonadal axis to chronic clomiphene administration in men.

Tenover JS, Bremner WJ.

Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine, Seattle.

Serum androgens decline with age in normal men, despite normal or elevated bioactive serum gonadotropins, suggesting that primary testicular dysfunction occurs with aging. The authors further assessed the question of age-related testicular dysfunction by evaluating whether raising serum gonadotropins above the normal serum range for an extended time in healthy elderly men might result in bringing their gonadal function to a level similar to that found in young adult men. Five elderly (65 to 85 years old) and five young adult men (26 to 33 years old) were given 50 mg of clomiphene citrate (CC) twice a day for 8 weeks to stimulate gonadotropin production. During that time, testosterone (T), non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound T, and estradiol increased significantly in both age groups, while serum inhibin increased significantly only in the young adult men. The increases in serum androgens with CC administration were significantly greater in the young adult men than in the elderly men. These hormone changes occurred in the setting of serum gonadotropins that increased significantly in both age groups, although there was a tendency for the elderly men to have a smaller increase in luteinizing hormone. Despite 8 weeks of stimulation of the pituitary-gonadal axis by CC administration, the elderly men demonstrated significantly diminished testicular responses compared with the young adult men. Sertoli cell function, as determined by inhibin production, was more diminished in the elderly men than was Leydig cell function. These data strengthen the hypothesis that normal aging in men is accompanied by a decline in testicular function.


Urology 1991 Oct;38(4):317-22

Possible hypothalamic impotence. Male counterpart to hypothalamic amenorrhea?

Guay AT, Bansal S, Hodge MB.

Section of Endocrinology, Lahey Clinic Medical Center, Burlington, Massachusetts.

Twenty-one men with erectile complaints who were found to have a low level of serum testosterone without a reciprocal elevation of the serum levels of luteinizing hormone were evaluated to identify whether the defect was of hypothalamic or of pituitary origin. Patients underwent a luteinizing hormone (LH)-follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH)-releasing hormone stimulation test that showed a normal but sluggish increase in LH and FSH levels, thus ruling out a pituitary defect and suggesting a suprapituitary abnormality. This was confirmed when, in response to clomiphene, patients had a normal increase in gonadotropin and testosterone levels . Although the basal as well as clomiphene and gonadotropin releasing hormone-stimulated levels of total testosterone and gonadotropins were identical in men less than and more than fifty years old, the elevation of free testosterone levels in response to clomiphene was higher in patients younger than fifty. This suggested that although the primary abnormality found in these patients is altered secretion of gonadotropin hormone-releasing hormone from the hypothalamus, an age-related decline in the responsivity of Leydig cells to LH may make it more manifest in older patients. Elevation of testosterone levels from a subnormal to a normal range in response to clomiphene administered for seven days suggests that the defect is functional and reversible and that the drug may be useful in treatment of sexual dysfunction in this group of patients.
Nephron 1993;63(4):390-4

Effect of clomiphene citrate on hormonal profile in male hemodialysis and kidney transplant patients.

Martin-Malo A, Benito P, Castillo D, Espinosa M, Burdiel LG, Perez R, Aljama P.

Department of Nephrology, Hospital Universitario Reina Sofia, Cordoba, Spain.

The aim of this study was to evaluate the role of clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in the hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis of male uremic subjects. Thirty-four patients on hemodialysis (HD) and 8 successful kidney transplant subjects (RT) were evaluated. Nine healthy males were used as controls (C). At baseline, zinc, testosterone (TEST), prolactin (PRL), FSH, LH and estradiol plasma concentrations were measured. All subjects were treated with CC (100 mg/day) for a week. The aforementioned parameters were determined again on the seventh day of CC therapy, and 3 days after drug withdrawal. Following CC, there was a rise in FSH, LH and TEST levels in all subjects (p < 0.05); it is interesting to stress that TEST became normal in HD. In addition, we observed a decrease of PRL after CC only in HD patients (p < 0.01). In summary, CC was able to partially correct most of the

[d.b]

These are old studies...H*ell one of them is almost 20 yrs old...How about some new studies...I know it was a stapel in everyones PCT 20yrs ago...

peace

db

[nsa]

We are still waiting to hear your reason for not doing PCT. And what studies have you read that prove that pct does not help your hpta restore faster than it would naturally?

[d.b]

NSA (cool name by the way) I am still looking for them studies..LOL...The reason I don't use PCT is that I had blood work done 1 month after my last shot and my htpa levels where back to normal... So why should I do PCT's if my normal test levels rebound in a months time???

peace

db

[Jack87]

It was about a 22 week cycle with Test, Tren Ent, EQ and the Tren
was ran weeks 4-16 right and the Test was run the rest of the way
with weeks 16-22 being a cutting phase... I slowing tapered off my
longer ester Test at the end and added Test prop at the end for a
few extra weeks as the longer esters cleared and I never had any
real lost in sex drive nor did I feel my hormones crash as they do
after a Test/Deca cycle, so I know my test levels did not crash...
Just was a little experiment, plus I hate the emotional sides of Clomid
Was gonna use some Trib to boost LH, but that hasn't been needed...

This is not to say that I think PCT doesn't have a place after a cycle,
but I just wanted to try just dropping everything else after week 16
and just run the Test to see what would happen...

Interesting, what did the cycle look like where you did not do PCT?

[BootyJuice24]

First of all, 5 weeks of winstrol is not even a cycle........

tell your "friends" that "know" why you dont need pct to come and post here, and i will correct everything they say, and have medical journals to back me. I'm sure all they have is "word of mouth"

It was my first cycle....I had significant gains that I posted in the appropriate forum. It has been three weeks since my last shot and I have lost hardly any of the gains. I noticed decrease in the exertion when I lift....In all honesty I only lost about 5 pounds off of rep weight on bench for example....But by taking the 5 week cycle I gained about 35 pounds on rep weight. I seem to have responded well to what I did, so based on my results...5 weeks on winny IS a real cycle for ME. Next cycle will be more real perhaps in your opinion...I am just going to run a ten week Test Enan./ Deca cycle with nolva throughout and clomid PCT...I decided to run tribulus as well throughout the whole cycle. Doses will be according to the novice cycle provided on the site.

[Iowa]

These are old studies...H*ell one of them is almost 20 yrs old...How about some new studies...I know it was a stapel in everyones PCT 20yrs ago...

peace

db

Just because they are old studies, doesn't mean they are inaccurate studies. True, 1 is almost 20 years old, but there are 2 that are about 10 years old. I dont see your reasoning in invalidating the studies because of age. (Ill try to find some more recent ones for you) And yes, views change with time, but I have yet to see a study that DOES NOT support the fact that clomid raises endogenous testosterone levels .
Take for penicillin for example. It was discovered around 1930 and was proven to be an antibiotic back then. Are you going to invalidate that because it is 75 years old?

PEACE

IOWA

[Iowa]

Here's on from June 2003 d.b.


Int J Impot Res. 2003 Jun;15(3):156-65. Related Articles, Links


Clomiphene increases free testosterone levels in men with both secondary hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction: who does and does not benefit?

Guay AT, Jacobson J, Perez JB, Hodge MB, Velasquez E.

Center for Sexual Function (Endocrinology), Peabody, Massachusetts 01960, USA. [email protected]

Secondary hypogonadism is more common than primary gonadal failure and is seen in chronic and acute illnesses. Although testosterone has a role in erections, its importance in erectile dysfunction (ED) has been controversial. Hypogonadism produced by functional suppression of pituitary gonadotropins has been shown to correct with clomiphene citrate, but with a modest effect on sexual function. We wondered if longer treatment would produce improved results. A total of 178 men with secondary hypogonadism and ED received clomiphene citrate for 4 months. Sexual function improved in 75%, with no change in 25%, while significant increases in luteinizing hormone (P<0.001) and free testosterone (P<0.001) occurred in all patients. Multivariable analysis showed that responses decreased significantly with aging (P<0.05). Decreased responses also occurred in men with diabetes, hypertension, coronary artery disease, and multiple medication use. Since these conditions are more prevalent with aging, chronic disease may be a more important determinant of sexual dysfunction. Men with anxiety-related disorders responded better to normalization of testosterone. Assessment of androgen status should be accomplished in all men with ED. For those with lower than normal age-matched levels of testosterone treatment directed at normalizing testosterone with clomiphene citrate is a viable alternative to giving androgen supplements.

[63190]

Oh SNAP! Good enough now d.b.?