Nolva only PCT?!?!

[SampsonandDelilah]

I'm in week 7 of a 12 week Test Cyp cycle (400 mgs week...split 2 x 200)

So far, I've had zero side effects...current stats are 6'3" , 225 lbs, 10-12% BF

I've run a 10 week test E cyle once prior without PCT and did fine (this was 7 years ago...didn't even know what PCT was then)

I have clomid and Nolva on hand... but was thinking of going Nolva only.

40/40/20/20....do you guys think this is a bad idea? clomid has me a tad weirded out...a buddy of mine is in PCT now and using clomid and is one moody mother-F'er (plus as a SERM, Nolva seems the best of the two)

I'm wanting to not add and AI

I don't think the cycle is heavy enough for HCG (even though I have some slight shrinkage) and I don't really want to spend the money on proviron (because I've never used the source and would hate to get burned)

With all this being said (and after doing some reading) I'm thinking I could do Nolva only...I know some guys hate the idea...but I've read others that endorse it for lower ended Test only cycles and have had and seen success.

any thoughts...haters/flamers/supporters???

Recomendations?

[Freakish]

I'm in week 7 of a 12 week Test Cyp cycle (400 mgs week...split 2 x 200)

So far, I've had zero side effects...current stats are 6'3" , 225 lbs, 10-12% BF

I've run a 10 week test E cyle once prior without PCT and did fine (this was 7 years ago...didn't even know what PCT was then)

I have clomid and Nolva on hand... but was thinking of going Nolva only.

40/40/20/20....do you guys think this is a bad idea? clomid has me a tad weirded out...a buddy of mine is in PCT now and using clomid and is one moody mother-F'er (plus as a SERM, Nolva seems the best of the two)

I'm wanting to not add and AI

I don't think the cycle is heavy enough for HCG (even though I have some slight shrinkage) and I don't really want to spend the money on proviron (because I've never used the source and would hate to get burned)

With all this being said (and after doing some reading) I'm thinking I could do Nolva only...I know some guys hate the idea...but I've read others that endorse it for lower ended Test only cycles and have had and seen success.

any thoughts...haters/flamers/supporters???

Recomendations?

yes you can use nolva only,however i dont support it.id at least add in clomid at 50mg ed,there is no need to run your nolva at 40mg for the first 2wks just keep it at 20mg

[SampsonandDelilah]

so you're saying Nolva...20/20/20/20
clomid..50/50/50/50

instead of Nolva 40/40/20/20

wouldn't I want to taper down?


Anyone else had problems/side effects with clomid? Thats my concern and why I want to stick with Nolva only

[Freakish]

so you're saying Nolva...20/20/20/20
clomid..50/50/50/50

instead of Nolva 40/40/20/20

wouldn't I want to taper down?


Anyone else had problems/side effects with clomid? Thats my concern and why I want to stick with Nolva only

no i wouldnt taper down.yes a lot of people including me have emotional sides from clomid,however i only get them at higher doses like about 150mg ed,thats why 50mg ed you'l be fine

[Swifto]

no i wouldnt taper down.yes a lot of people including me have emotional sides from clomid,however i only get them at higher doses like about 150mg ed,thats why 50mg ed you'l be fine

Agreed.

25-50mg/ED of Clomid is sufficient.

You also need to include an AI as you havent used one to keep estorgen in normal ranges whilst "on".

You need to get estrogen down during PCT (if you already havent) as estrogen is very suppressive to the HPTA (around 300 times more than Testosterone ), especially the leydig cells.

I'd suggest Clomid, Tamoxifen , Aromasin .

[WARMachine]

^^^ Thats a great PCT but Clomid/Nolva is sufficent for this cycle.

[SampsonandDelilah]

^^^ Thats a great PCT but Clomid/Nolva is sufficent for this cycle.

So...
Nolva 20/20/20/20
Clomid 25/25/25/25

or

Nolva 20/20/20/20 (0r 40)
Clomid 50/50/50/50 (or 25)

THANKS!!

[WARMachine]

I do this...


Nolva - 20/20/20/20
Clomid - 50/50/25/25

[The Deuce]

I do this...


Nolva - 20/20/20/20
Clomid - 50/50/25/25

Really???


I have never done that myself. Any added benefits from it?? Me personally....

Nolva 20/20/20/20/20/20
Hcg 500/500/500
Aromasin 25/25/25/25/25

sometimes if I do a cycle for over 14 weeks i bump the nolva to 40 a day for 6 weeks. I just want to make absolutely sure everything is done properly. I take my PCT VERY seriously. I have thought of Clomid before but have never used it. Never even thought i had too...

Anyone else agree with what I do for my PCT??

[Swifto]

Really???


I have never done that myself. Any added benefits from it?? Me personally....

Nolva 20/20/20/20/20/20
Hcg 500/500/500
Aromasin 25/25/25/25/25

sometimes if I do a cycle for over 14 weeks i bump the nolva to 40 a day for 6 weeks. I just want to make absolutely sure everything is done properly. I take my PCT VERY seriously. I have thought of Clomid before but have never used it. Never even thought i had too...

Anyone else agree with what I do for my PCT??

Not really, but if it works...

My PCT preperation and PCT is a sticky at the top of this forum. Have a look.

Tormifene and Clomid seem to be the best SERMs for HPTA recovery in my opinoin. HCG/AI's used when "on", SERMs/Supps for PCT.

[shearered]

the clomid and the nolva will be perfect for this PCT. And keep the nolva at 20mg for 4 weeks.

[WARMachine]

Not really, but if it works...

My PCT preperation and PCT is a sticky at the top of this forum. Have a look.

Tormifene and Clomid seem to be the best SERMs for HPTA recovery in my opinoin. HCG/AI's used when "on", SERMs/Supps for PCT.

I agree...

But hCG and AI's definatly dont hurt ones PCT.

[LATS60]

Not really, but if it works...

My PCT preparation and PCT is a sticky at the top of this forum. Have a look.

Toremifene and Clomid seem to be the best PERMs for HPTA recovery in my opinion. HCG/AI's used when "on", SIMs/Supps for PCT.

Yes i agree with this totally, iv'e seen many posts where people recommend an AI in PCT, there is no point, the only exception to this is the steroidal AI, aromasin , an suicidal AI will have no effect, so why waste your money.

Almost forgot, yes you can run a nova only PCT after that cycle, and TBH if you ran it at 40/40/20/20/20, who knows whether it would have taken any longer to get your natural test levels back any quicker than if you'd ran clomid as well. I certainly don't.

[dmc777]

Hey Swifto what do you think about my situation. My cycle was this..
Weeks 1-9 500mg Sus and 200mgs of Test Cyp
Weeks 10-13 500mgs test enth
Week 14 250mg test enth
Week 15 125mg test enth

No AI was used during cycle but had on hand just in case. I don't seem to be gyno prone but I have Nolva and LiquiAromasin. Do you think I should take the aromasin as well during pct or order some clomid and just run nolva and clomid. I've read mixed reviews on taking ai's post cycle so that my concern. What is your experience? Will the Aromasin help my libido and raise my test? Any help would be appreciated! thanks bro!

[Swifto]

Hey Swifto what do you think about my situation. My cycle was this..
Weeks 1-9 500mg Sus and 200mgs of Test Cyp
Weeks 10-13 500mgs test enth
Week 14 250mg test enth
Week 15 125mg test enth

No AI was used during cycle but had on hand just in case. I don't seem to be gyno prone but I have Nolva and LiquiAromasin. Do you think I should take the aromasin as well during pct or order some clomid and just run nolva and clomid. I've read mixed reviews on taking ai's post cycle so that my concern. What is your experience? Will the Aromasin help my libido and raise my test? Any help would be appreciated! thanks bro!

I dont quite know why you have tapered your Test, unless its worked for you in the past?

Even though you have tapered your testosterone dosage, you still may have elevated levels of estrogen present during PCT, which you really dont want.

The Nolva alone may be ok, but I'd get some Clomid too and use it at 25-50mg/ED for 4-6 weeks with Nolva and Aromasin at 25mg/EOD.

[Swifto]

Yes i agree with this totally, iv'e seen many posts where people recommend an AI in PCT, there is no point, the only exception to this is the steroidal AI, aromasin , an suicidal AI will have no effect, so why waste your money.

Almost forgot, yes you can run a nova only PCT after that cycle, and TBH if you ran it at 40/40/20/20/20, who knows whether it would have taken any longer to get your natural test levels back any quicker than if you'd ran clomid as well. I certainly don't.

There isnt any point in lowering estrogen even further than it has been during your cycle, during PCT to raise T IMHO. You run the very real risk of driving estrogen too low during this time, when it should have been kept in low/normal ranges during your cycle.

I'm echo'ing what Swale states. But I'm sure your aware of that.

[LATS60]

There isnt any point in lowering estrogen even further than it has been during your cycle, during PCT to raise T IMHO. You run the very real risk of driving estrogen too low during this time, when it should have been kept in low/normal ranges during your cycle.

I'm echo'ing what Swale states. But I'm sure your aware of that.

I'm not honestly sure what your saying, are you agreeing that a suicidal AI is pointless in PCT or not?
Swale??? No i'm not aware, i tend to err on the clinical/scientific side, maybe i should read some swale.
In fact i'm interested i'm off to look right now.
But TBH, i have no idea what your point is, something about lowering estrogens further, sorry i'm confused.

[dmc777]

I dont quite know why you have tapered your Test, unless its worked for you in the past?

Even though you have tapered your testosterone dosage, you still may have elevated levels of estrogen present during PCT, which you really dont want.

The Nolva alone may be ok, but I'd get some Clomid too and use it at 25-50mg/ED for 4-6 weeks with Nolva and Aromasin at 25mg/EOD.

Thanks for replying bro. How has this protocol worked for you in the past and what type of cycle were you running? Did you bounce back fine? I've also read that it's almost pointless to take both clomid and nolva at the same time and to take aromasin everyday...there's too many different ways of doing this shit ha ha! Oh yeah I tapered because i read that too...at this site on how to come off!

[Swifto]

I'm not honestly sure what your saying, are you agreeing that a suicidal AI is pointless in PCT or not?
Swale??? No i'm not aware, i tend to err on the clinical/scientific side, maybe i should read some swale.
In fact i'm interested i'm off to look right now.
But TBH, i have no idea what your point is, something about lowering estrogens further, sorry i'm confused.

AI's only work by inhibiting estrogen at the hypothalamus. If you have used an AI during your cycle and controlled estrogen from increasing, you dont need to lower it even further during PCT by continuing to use the AI.

You run the risk of driving estrogen too low, which can bring other sides (joint, immune system, sex drive etc...).

SERM's should be used during PCT, or an AI aswell if you havent already controlled estrogen.

Ok?

Swale is an Endo who occassionally posts on boards and has written articles on AS, PCT, HCG , SERM's etc...Have a search here.

I also agree. Aromasin should be the first choice AI IF you need to use one

[Swifto]

Thanks for replying bro. How has this protocol worked for you in the past and what type of cycle were you running? Did you bounce back fine? I've also read that it's almost pointless to take both clomid and nolva at the same time and to take aromasin everyday...there's too many different ways of doing this shit ha ha! Oh yeah I tapered because i read that too...at this site on how to come off!

My PCT worked fine.

I actually use 2nd generation SERM's now during PCT. Tormifene is the best IMHO for HPTA restoration.

Clomid and Nolva work differently, even though there both very similar. I prefer low dose Clomid at 25-50mg/ED for 5-6 weeks. Nolva can be added at 20mg/ED and Aromasin at 25mg/EOD or 12.5mg/ED.

Read my sticky regarding HCG usage.

[Mulciber]

I'm not honestly sure what your saying, are you agreeing that a suicidal AI is pointless in PCT or not?
Swale??? No i'm not aware, i tend to err on the clinical/scientific side, maybe i should read some swale.
In fact i'm interested i'm off to look right now.
But TBH, i have no idea what your point is, something about lowering estrogens further, sorry i'm confused.

Swale has been around a long time..good guy.. HRT specialist.. here is his PCT protocol..

Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!

Here it is:

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid -induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn�t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn�t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or nolvadex , is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM�s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel , or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a �bridge�. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can�t �fool� the body�it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground�and we don�t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

[lovbyts]

Where is this quote from? Who's quote is it? Good information there.

[Swifto]

Where is this quote from? Who's quote is it? Good information there.

Its written by Swale (Dr. John Crisler) who is an Endocrinologist.

[dmc777]

Well Swale says don't use an AI during pct cause is risks the probability of driving estrogen too low. This is what worries me is that 25mg ed of Aromasin can decrease estrogen by 85% correct? Is that not too low? I don't want to lose my damn sex drive ha ha because of no estrogen. What if only 10mg ed was used wouldn't that be about 40% reduction in estrogen and wouldn't that seem better? Someone please explain this too me.

[Swifto]

Well Swale says don't use an AI during pct cause is risks the probability of driving estrogen too low. This is what worries me is that 25mg ed of Aromasin can decrease estrogen by 85% correct? Is that not too low? I don't want to lose my damn sex drive ha ha because of no estrogen. What if only 10mg ed was used wouldn't that be about 40% reduction in estrogen and wouldn't that seem better? Someone please explain this too me.

If you have controlled estrogen when cycling, by using Arimidex , then you shouldnt need to use an AI during your PCT.

Use an AI when using HCG though as it can raise estrogen (by endogenous T aromotasing) a fair bit.

[dmc777]

I'm not running HCG I can't find it anywhere...Just Nolva and Aromasin . I also have some Novedex XT and was thinking about getting some trib or other natural test booster. Thanks for continuing to respond Swifto.

[Swifto]

I'm not running HCG I can't find it anywhere...Just Nolva and Aromasin. I also have some Novedex XT and was thinking about getting some trib or other natural test booster. Thanks for continuing to respond Swifto.

Tribulas will not raise testosterone at all. It will raise labido and can be used to counteract a low sex drive during PCT if you want.

Nolva/Aromasin is ok. I'd add Clomid at 25-50mg/ED though too.

Novedex XT works the same as an AI, by lowering estrogen. Its not needed if Aromasin is used.

[UNICRON]

If you have controlled estrogen when cycling, by using Arimidex , then you shouldnt need to use an AI during your PCT.

Use an AI when using HCG though as it can raise estrogen (by endogenous T aromotasing) a fair bit.

How much Arimidex would you use? 25mg ED? I am on a similar cycle I am about to start and i wanted tp make sure I have everything lined up for PCT. I have Nolva on hand for /20/20/20/20 and Clomid for 25/25/25/25... My Cycle is

Deca 200 x 10
Test E 500 X 12

Clomi and Nolva on hand for PCT. How does everything else look?

[Bullet3000]

PCT Tips for this cycle.

WK 1-16: 750mg Test E
WK 4-14: 400mg Tren E
WK 1-6 : 40mg Dbol
WK 12-18: 50mg Win ED
Then PCT right away from week 18

About the cycle im starting running now.
Have heard prob about 1000 ways to Run PCT.
Since its a hard cycle i dont wanna go half way.
Someone tip me off for the best PCT to secure totaly recovery?
Make more sence adding more than less if u first are going to run anything

[Swifto]

How much Arimidex would you use? 25mg ED? I am on a similar cycle I am about to start and i wanted tp make sure I have everything lined up for PCT. I have Nolva on hand for /20/20/20/20 and Clomid for 25/25/25/25... My Cycle is

Deca 200 x 10
Test E 500 X 12

Clomi and Nolva on hand for PCT. How does everything else look?

0.5mg/ED as your also using a 19-Nor (Deca).

[Swifto]

PCT Tips for this cycle.

WK 1-16: 750mg Test E
WK 4-14: 400mg Tren E
WK 1-6 : 40mg Dbol
WK 12-18: 50mg Win ED
Then PCT right away from week 18

About the cycle im starting running now.
Have heard prob about 1000 ways to Run PCT.
Since its a hard cycle i dont wanna go half way.
Someone tip me off for the best PCT to secure totaly recovery?
Make more sence adding more than less if u first are going to run anything

Read my sticky.

HCG thorughout + AI, Clomid or Torm + Nolva for PCT.