Not happy with some PCT start times for long esters...

**Swifto** · 04-21-2009, 01:55 PM

I've been thinking....I know....Ohhh dear.

The longest ester in Sust is Deconate and lasts around 21 days...Right? It will be the final ester still active after Phenylpropionate is cleaved off after 5-6 days. So from the last injection 100mg of Deconate is the only still active ester after 5-6 days. Thats 100mg declining over 21 days.

The Hypothalamus will start to release GnRH, which will signal the Pituitary to release LH, when enough androgen receptors in the Hypothalamus are de-activated. This may process may not start at exectly 21 days when there is NO active hormone in the body. It may start before. At which mg amount, I'm not sure, but I wouldnt leave it 21 days. If I did, I'd finish with an oral (you always should anyway).

I guess this can be said for most esters too, when such a short amount of hormone is used (100mg over 21 days). Also dont forget that 100mg isnt actually getting to the body. Space is also taken up (alot in Deconate's case) by the ester.

Thoughts...

**WARMachine** · 04-21-2009, 07:36 PM

Honestly, since i think im the only one who will respond to this, its safe to tell you.

Ive always started PCT early. Wether it be with Test E or P. Never stuck with Sust (luckily), but ive always found that not enough hormone was in the body to justify waiting X amount of days to PCT.

Unless with an oral like you said. Which is why i have been advising people to do so for quite some time now. I have done a little research about this, but its tough to 'rock the boat'. So few people understand why we run PCT at all, i felt its not worth mentioning.

But i hear what youre saying, and feel it can apply to almost all types of Testosterone .

Kudos for taking the time to write it out. Perhaps we need to team up and write up a thread about this matter?

**Swifto** · 04-22-2009, 03:36 AM

Originally Posted by WARMachine

Honestly, since i think im the only one who will respond to this, its safe to tell you.

Ive always started PCT early. Wether it be with Test E or P. Never stuck with Sust (luckily), but ive always found that not enough hormone was in the body to justify waiting X amount of days to PCT.

Unless with an oral like you said. Which is why i have been advising people to do so for quite some time now. I have done a little research about this, but its tough to 'rock the boat'. So few people understand why we run PCT at all, i felt its not worth mentioning.

But i hear what youre saying, and feel it can apply to almost all types of Testosterone .

Kudos for taking the time to write it out. Perhaps we need to team up and write up a thread about this matter?

In future, I wont wait 14 days when I finish Enanthate , I'll wait around 10 and run an oral upto when I start PCT. I really dont see the point in waiting till there is NO active hormone in the body when the HPTA will probably begin to secrete ganadotropins well before 14 days.

**8iron** · 04-22-2009, 03:13 PM

When u say run a oral, like winny or d-bol, or should d=bol only be used for the begining, and if u dont run a oral then, if Im reading it right you would srart PCT 10 day after last injection??? Does it matter if its an advance cycle or a beginner cycle...or is it just ten days

**WARMachine** · 04-22-2009, 07:44 PM

When we say run oral, we mean any oral.

Though my favortive to run are Anavar and Tbol.

Both are compounds that allow you to make gains you will keep.

**8iron** · 04-22-2009, 08:03 PM

Thanks War, apprecite it, I went ahead and started my first cycle, T-mos said i could (lol) it all T-mos fault ive joined the dark side.....my b/f was around 17% but im still keeping my diet in check and doing cardio in the morning, I'm also folowing your sticky on prevention and will run the pct accordingly, just wondering how the info on hcg is going i know it alot of research and info to put together....as of now im going to run it stating the last three weeks up to pct........that seems to be the popular view around.......... Just runing a test-e for my first cycle to see how this body reacts.......

**WARMachine** · 04-22-2009, 08:12 PM

^ Thats a safe bet.

hCG throughout the cycle seems to be the most effective way im finding. Though im not 100% ready to commit to it yet, ill let you know.

I made some progress on the PCT section recently, its almost ready.

btw, did you change your handle?

And are you going to be kickstarting your cycle? PM me what youre doing.

***T-MOS*** · 04-22-2009, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by 8iron

Thanks War, apprecite it, I went ahead and started my first cycle, T-mos said i could (lol) it all T-mos fault ive joined the dark side.....my b/f was around 17% but im still keeping my diet in check and doing cardio in the morning, I'm also folowing your sticky on prevention and will run the pct accordingly, just wondering how the info on hcg is going i know it alot of research and info to put together....as of now im going to run it stating the last three weeks up to pct........that seems to be the popular view around.......... Just runing a test-e for my first cycle to see how this body reacts.......

Thanks, Sure blame me.......lolol

this is a very interesting topic. To me, I guess the thing I would want to see proved is at what point will the body start producing its own hormones again after a compound is removed from it.

**WARMachine** · 04-22-2009, 08:16 PM

Working on it...Amoungst other things... ^^^

**8iron** · 04-22-2009, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by T-MOS

Thanks, Sure blame me.......lolol

this is a very interesting topic. To me, I guess the thing I would want to see proved is at what point will the body start producing its own hormones again after a compound is removed from it.

Me too. it will be intresting to see what he come up with........since ther seems to be so many views on this......

**8iron** · 04-22-2009, 08:24 PM

[QUOTE=WARMachine;4580942]^.

btw, did you change your handle?

yea, i ask admin to do it........it was originally my email addres name, i coach high school kids in football & wrestling, better safe than sorry, altough I have great info from this site to educate them on why teens need to stay away from steriod use and let ther natural test do the trick, plus i can share soom horror stories to scare them, especially when their hormones are kicked in and all the think about is girls......................

***T-MOS*** · 04-22-2009, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Swifto

In future, I wont wait 14 days when I finish Enanthate , I'll wait around 10 and run an oral upto when I start PCT. I really dont see the point in waiting till there is NO active hormone in the body when the HPTA will probably begin to secrete ganadotropins well before 14 days.

so how does one figure this point out? as that would be what we would need to know to get the correct PCT timing right?

as there is no need to start PCT while there is still suppression occurring from the compound used right?

Just trying to digest all this as I do think it is a very valid and interesting point

I will be following this to see what you guys come up with !!!

**Swifto** · 04-23-2009, 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by T-MOS

so how does one figure this point out? as that would be what we would need to know to get the correct PCT timing right?

as there is no need to start PCT while there is still suppression occurring from the compound used right?

Just trying to digest all this as I do think it is a very valid and interesting point

I will be following this to see what you guys come up with !!!

"I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex , is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production." - Swale

If I'm reading that right, that states 200mg/wk.

I'm going to PM/Email Swale and get clarification. If thats the case, I may write a little article/thread on all of this.