Strong PCT options voting (almost 1 year ON)

[Akp]

The very similar post yeastarday, so sorry for being impatient, but I'm short of time, and have a real issue.

To be honest I'm almost 1 year on 200-300mg test per week. I'd like to get off asaply.

Now, I need advice what option would be more suitable for me.

A) Starting PCT immidiatelly, with Clomid, tamoxifen(Nolvadex) and HCG at once.
B) Stay on the test propionate for another 3 weeks including HCG, and then run PCT with only clomid, and tamoxifen(Nolvadex) (SERMS).

Every advice about options, doses, etc. would be very appreciated

ps. I never use HCG before./ (clomid,Tamoxifen,HCG are available for me now, but If you strongly recommended I could look for some others)


regards
A

[Vitruvian-Man]

I would continue on the cycle for another 3 weeks... I would begin to use HCG every 3 days leading up to the PCT. Then I would discontinue the test-prop and wait 3 days to start PCT... (within that 3 days I would make sure to take one more HCG injection.)

How bad is your testicular atrophy after being on for a year? (this will determine if you need to continue it during PCT.)

PCT:

Nolva (weeks 1 - 6) @ 40/40/40/20/20/20
Clomid (weeks 1 - 6) @ 150/100/100/50/25

... Bump for other options though; Swifto would be the man to ask about extended PCT protocol..

[Akp]

thx a lot, the same I thought, after reading the board carefully.

What HCG dosages you would recommend ?

As Testicular atrophy is really bad, indeed.

Also looking for a word from Swifto. (As I couldnt pm yet)

regards
A.

[Vitruvian-Man]

thx a lot, the same I thought, after reading the board carefully.

What HCG dosages you would recommend ?

As Testicular atrophy is really bad, indeed.

Also looking for a word from Swifto. (As I couldnt pm yet)

regards
A.

500iu x 2 injections per week. (every 3.5 days.)

You may need to continue running it during your PCT. But you should wait and see if HCG can combat the testicular atrophy right now (as HCG is suppressive to the HPTA, so ideally one wouldn't want to run it during PCT -- because they are trying to recover their HPTA's function.)

Here is a sample of an extended PCT protocol:

Extended protocol sample for a 12+ month cycle:
Day 1-15_ .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva
Day 16-45_.25mg L-dex + 75mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva
Day 46-65_.25mg L-dex + 20mg Nolva
Day 66-80_.25mg L-dex

By the day bro, (L-dex) = arimidex (an A.I.)

Another example of a PCT (extended protocol) for someone with persistent testicular atrophy:

(weeks 1 - 6) nolvadex @ 40/40/40/20/20/20
(weeks 1- 6) clomid @ 150/100/100/50/50/25
(weeks 1 - 3) HCG @ 500iu each other day
(weeks 1 - 3) Aromasin @ 20 - 25mg ED
(weeks 1 - 3) Vitamin E @ 1000iu ED

BTW, nice to see a newbie using the "search" function. Atta' boy.

Keep us updated on your progress bro. Good luck.

[Akp]

Ok, thanks
I go on with HCG and test, and look for the results

wondering if some AI, included in almost every protocol, is so strongly recommended, as it's really hardly avaiable, where I am now.

I do look for proviron, but maybe I could add some more tamoxifen instead ?

[Swifto]

You need to run a fsirly high'ish dose of HCG IMHO, to restart the testes.

Stay on the Test and run HCG at 500ius for 14 days, with Arimidex 0.5mg/EOD or Aromasin 10mg/EOD for aromotase. If you testes regain size/volume, you may be one of the lucky ones. If not, you could try a larger dose, but if you do go this route, you may want to add Tamoxifen at 10-20mg/ED to stop block the effect HCG may have on the leydig cells (desensitisation). However, I think 500ius will dot he trick.

After that Clomid/Tamox for 6 weeks. If you can handle Clomid's sides, use 100mg/ED, but if not, 50mg/ED will suffice.

Clomid 100/50/50/25/25/25
Tamox 20/20/20/20/20/20




The same as Vitruvian-Man, but slighlty more aggressive IMHO.

[tboney]

You need to run a fsirly high'ish dose of HCG IMHO, to restart the testes.

Stay on the Test and run HCG at 500ius for 14 days, with Arimidex 0.5mg/EOD or Aromasin 10mg/EOD for aromotase. If you testes regain size/volume, you may be one of the lucky ones. If not, you could try a larger dose, but if you do go this route, you may want to add Tamoxifen at 10-20mg/ED to stop block the effect HCG may have on the leydig cells (desensitisation). However, I think 500ius will dot he trick.

After that Clomid/Tamox for 6 weeks. If you can handle Clomid's sides, use 100mg/ED, but if not, 50mg/ED will suffice.

Clomid 100/50/50/25/25/25
Tamox 20/20/20/20/20/20




The same as Vitruvian-Man, but slighlty more aggressive IMHO.

I am having alot of success with this protocal except that I am using Toremifene instead of Clomid.

[Swifto]

I am having alot of success with this protocal except that I am using Toremifene instead of Clomid.

You wont beat Tore with low dose Clomid for HPTA restoration!

Thats my protocol.

[Vitruvian-Man]

You wont beat Tore with low dose Clomid for HPTA restoration!

Thats my protocol.

Cool, I definitely want to use Tore for my next PCT.

Swifto, I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I've got a question... let's say the OP was unable to recover from the testicular atrophy prior to commencing PCT... (so he continues to stay on HCG during the first 3 weeks...) why do more extended PCT protocols state that one should use an A.I. alongside the HCG during PCT??? is it just to avoid estrogen rebound??

Also, when you say take HCG @ 500iu for 2 weeks straight do you mean ED or E3D protocol?? (clarification for myself ) haha

Thanks bro!

-VM.

[Akp]

You need to run a fsirly high'ish dose of HCG IMHO, to restart the testes.

Stay on the Test and run HCG at 500ius for 14 days, with Arimidex 0.5mg/EOD or Aromasin 10mg/EOD for aromotase.

The same as Vitruvian-Man, but slighlty more aggressive IMHO.

for the next two weeks, I'll depend on your knowledge, bumping and reporting from time to time.

Thanks again

to be sure: (Vitruvian-Man was faster
@ Swifto high'ish dose of HCG - u mean 500uis ed ?? right or the same as Vitruvian-Man advicet yet ? (every 3.5 days) ???

[TITANIUM]

Swifto meant 500iu's ed for 14 days.

(that's what I'm reading here).

Best

T

[tboney]

You wont beat Tore with low dose Clomid for HPTA restoration!

Thats my protocol.

Yea I agree but I just get really bad sides from clomid and it affects my eyes more than tamox. You dont think the torem and tamox will restore adequately?

[Swifto]

Cool, I definitely want to use Tore for my next PCT.

Swifto, I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I've got a question... let's say the OP was unable to recover from the testicular atrophy prior to commencing PCT... (so he continues to stay on HCG during the first 3 weeks...) why do more extended PCT protocols state that one should use an A.I. alongside the HCG during PCT??? is it just to avoid estrogen rebound??

Also, when you say take HCG @ 500iu for 2 weeks straight do you mean ED or E3D protocol?? (clarification for myself ) haha

Thanks bro!

-VM.

HCG can raise endogenous T quite alot, thats why I suggest an AI, even if HCG doesnt stimulate the testes and produce T. The testes produce estrogen, not just from aromotase and I'm sure I've read that HCG can stimulate estrogen directly. I'll have to check that though...

500ius/ED for 14 days, possibly more. Anymore than that can cause too much of a spike in estrogen and progesterone that will impede recovery further. Thats what Swale told me via an email.

[Swifto]

Yea I agree but I just get really bad sides from clomid and it affects my eyes more than tamox. You dont think the torem and tamox will restore adequately?

If you cant handle Clomid (alot cant) Tamoxifen is very good. I think Clomid is king and is better than Tamox, but Tore/Tamox is very good. I've used that too and it worked well. Some Endo's really dont like Clomid anymore, but its effect on raising LH, FSH, T is second to none.

[Akp]

Bumping for report, more advices needed badly

I'm after 1st week of HCG 500ui ed with 0.5mg arimidex eod and 10mg of tamox ed*

* I have been using tamox whole cycle 5-10mg ed, as I have gyno, pretty invisible one, but ever sensitive to all hormonal changes, I've found that the amout of 5-10mg of tamox ed makes me safe and sound, without "feeling" the gyno.

As I started HCG with arimidex, I started to feel gyno again, it swells a little as well.

I feel my testes react a little, in positive I hope, way to 500ui ed HCG, what should I do now, to proceed overhaulting in general but avoiding breast issue:

1) Bump up the HCG, 0.5mg arimidex and 10mg tamox stays the same.
2) Bump up the HCG and arimidex, tamox stays the same.
3) HCG stays the same, arimidex or tamox is going higher
4) ?

ps. Lowered doses of test Prop to 60 eod.


looking for advice
esp from Swifto and Vitruvian-Man

thanks

[Vitruvian-Man]

If you have gyno I would suggest reversal... however, I'm not sure you'll have enough time. (it depends on how long you need to stay on HCG for, which will dictate when you can begin your PCT.)

In any case, you could replace the a-dex for letro (which will eliminate 98% of estrogen) and this will aid in the gyno-reversal protocol. Do you have letro on hand? (let me know if you need the protocol for letro usage.. it's just a simple tapering up of the dosage.)

You need to stay on the HCG. 500-600iu each day, and report back at the end of next week. That's good that you're feeling your testes react, that at least shows stimulation is occurring. How about the atrophy? Has that improved whatsoever in the past week? If it hasn't improved much by the next monday, you can always continue with HCG therapy, and stay on the prop for another week. (meaning ~21 days of HCG.)

In any case, for now, I would bump the nolvadex dosage to 20mg-30mg each day, and see if that helps at all.

We'll get you through this bro don't fret. lol.

bump for Swifto's opinion.

[Akp]

I'll look for the letro, but I'm quite sure, that I cant get it fast enough.

I've just read the bino's bible, and that board is amazes me, as and I never heard about successfull gyno reversal before! I'll talk with him about reversing such old (2years gyno) as I have. If I cant get letro now, I'll procced the reversal after PCT or so.

So now, I'm proceeding the 500ui straight with 0.5mg arimi and tamox taken up to 25mg

thx V-M

[Vitruvian-Man]

I'll look for the letro, but I'm quite sure, that I cant get it fast enough.

I've just read the bino's bible, and that board is amazes me, as and I never heard about successfull gyno reversal before! I'll talk with him about reversing such old (2years gyno) as I have. If I cant get letro now, I'll procced the reversal after PCT or so.

So now, I'm proceeding the 500ui straight with 0.5mg arimi and tamox taken up to 25mg

thx V-M

No problem.

I didn't realize that you've had such persistent gyno. Your only option may be gyno surgery... It's a tad costly though... Insurance doesn't regularly cover the surgery.

Keep us updated.

[Akp]

Bump

10.000ui HCG in 2,5 week just after me, It's hard to say, but I think some improvements has been made. Only 5000ui left on me,
A) it'll be enough or should I buy another 15k ui ?

Despite the 0.5mg a-dex eod and 25mg tamox ed I'm still feeling the gyno. higher doses helps sth but not much.
I'm wondering
B)
-not to change anything hoping my gyno wont make any more visable, after the pct ending.(When, HCG made by, swelling ends)
-up the doses again, or a-dex ed insted of eod?

PS. In General I feel like shit, I hard to go to the gym, and even there I hardy to sweat myself, no power, no agressivity, nothing for what I like that sport, at all.
if my sexual drive on short Test (prop) sucks, now sucks twice.
I overally fell like a womanized-cry-like, ever sensitive (All in the bad meaning indeed) mug


W-M, and Swifto be patient

[donopat]

been on over a year. various roids. 250iu hcg on monday and thurs the whole time. i used a decent amount of tren (about 100mg's acetate eod for 3 months) never did any deca or npp. never had problems. but i did mostly prop. as far as the test was concerned. basically after u do the last shot of prop 3 days later u do about 500iu's of hcg than wait 4 days and start the clomid. i am gonna just do 100mg's for 2 weeks than 50mg's for 3 weeks. nolvadex 40 for 2 weeks and 20 for 4. i want to run the nolva for 1 week after i stop the clomid.

i used some lk=dex at the beginning of the cycle but at this low dose of hcg i didnt have any problem. alot of guys wait til the end and do 2500iu's 2x a week for 3 weeks before they start their clomid/nolva. what they do in 3 weeks i do in 15 weeks, so i for myself, believe the use less the whole cycle theory worlks better for me.

i am 40 years old if that matters .

pat d.

[Vitruvian-Man]

Bump

10.000ui HCG in 2,5 week just after me, It's hard to say, but I think some improvements has been made. Only 5000ui left on me,
A) it'll be enough or should I buy another 15k ui ?

Despite the 0.5mg a-dex eod and 25mg tamox ed I'm still feeling the gyno. higher doses helps sth but not much.
I'm wondering
B)
-not to change anything hoping my gyno wont make any more visable, after the pct ending.(When, HCG made by, swelling ends)
-up the doses again, or a-dex ed insted of eod?

PS. In General I feel like shit, I hard to go to the gym, and even there I hardy to sweat myself, no power, no agressivity, nothing for what I like that sport, at all.
if my sexual drive on short Test (prop) sucks, now sucks twice.
I overally fell like a womanized-cry-like, ever sensitive (All in the bad meaning indeed) mug


W-M, and Swifto be patient

Only you can decide if you need more HCG... you have to gauge your testicular atrophy, and decide whether or not it's suitable. HCG is pretty cheap, so I would just buy another 15k just incase.

In regards to: "I feel like shit"... that's because you are eliminating a large amount of estrogen (low estrogen can = feeling of fatigue, depression, etc..)

Yes I would absolutely increase the a-dex dosage to each day. More importantly, did you order the letro like I previously suggested?! If you want to significantly reduce the gyno you should be running it. It will eliminate ~98% of estrogen in the body; whereas, a-dex only eliminates around ~83%...

Get yourself some N.O. Xplode it'll give you a little aggression before the gym.. otherwise you just suffer through it bro...

Keep us updated..

-VM

[Akp]

I hardly to find the protocol with more then 15000ui, but I've asked at Swifto's thread, maybe he'll throw it in a sharp relief.

I know that more often dosent mean better, but I would like to be particulary sure, due to Testes issue. (Changes arent so extraordinary as I'd like to so far)

Waiting for some ideas about amount of HCG, and running the last ten days:
Test 50 e2d + 500ui hcg ed + 0.5 a-dex ed + 25mg tamox ed - pretty seedy feeling combo.

regards
A.

ps. I look more fatty, and get much weaker, but NO Xpl.+SizeOn+many others , are saved for PCT -I'll start them 4days to PCT start.
ps2. Hardly anyone knows what is LETRO, and no one has it, in my trusted surroundings. (I'll start to check the online sources - pm's welcome)