Replacement for Aromasin

[ph34rsh4ck]

Nope

[Merc.]

You need to also use nolva if you are going to use HCG in pct .. HCG is suppressive , and nolva helps to block the conversion of 17 OHP to test..

So than the problem is that nolva makes type II AI's like adex less effective.. You see this happens because a type II AI can be partially eliminated by nolva , and it would have to be present to continue doing its job on the aromatase enzyme ... Aromasin is a type I ai and once a type I does its job the enzyme it is attached to is useless.. so that is why aromasin is advise as the AI when using HCG in pct..

I have seen peeps take a different AI ... but for the reasons I have explained aromasin is the best when using HCG in PCT ...



Merc.

[peachfuzz]

personally i think your better off using hcg on cycle and controling estro on cycle as well. then utilizing SERMS as your post. i dont like hcg or AIs post (unless estro is high)

[TITANIUM]

personally i think your better off using hcg on cycle and controling estro on cycle as well. then utilizing SERMS as your post. i dont like hcg or AIs post (unless estro is high)

Agreed^^^To both Merc and Fuzz.


Best

T

[ph34rsh4ck]

Nope

[peachfuzz]

hcg on cycle keeps the testis responsive to LH and maintains greater leydig cell volume thus making recovery much easier. post cycle it is the testis that are slow to go back on line not the hypothalamus or pituitary which begin increasing LH fairly qickly. using hcg post cycle can have a negative feedback on LH levels as well as increase estro. thus actually inhibiting recovery.

as far as an AI post cycle it depends on if estro was kept in check during cycle or not. if so no need to use an AI post cycle. actually it wouldnt be good to. however if estro is high at the end of a cycle then an AI can be implemented for the first few weeks of pct or while the esters are clearing.

[Merc.]

hcg on cycle keeps the testis responsive to LH and maintains greater leydig cell volume thus making recovery much easier. post cycle it is the testis that are slow to go back on line not the hypothalamus or pituitary which begin increasing LH fairly qickly. using hcg post cycle can have a negative feedback on LH levels as well as increase estro. thus actually inhibiting recovery.

as far as an AI post cycle it depends on if estro was kept in check during cycle or not. if so no need to use an AI post cycle. actually it wouldnt be good to. however if estro is high at the end of a cycle then an AI can be implemented for the first few weeks of pct or while the esters are clearing.

HCG suppressive nature is blocked when using nolva with it .. The suppressive nature of HCG is due to the conversion of 17 ohp into test ( which nolva blocks this suppressive nature) .. If you look up desensitize and leydig on pubmed you will see that desensitization is not caused by PKC , and therefore is likely to be caused by HCG's effects on 17 OHP , and those effects from HCG are blocked by nolva.. There are studies that show that pre exposure to normal lh is necessary for hcg leydig cell desensitization.. it is not going to effect someone whos lh level is low becuase they are coming off a cycle( which it would be low ) .. Also any suppression form the estrogen engendered by the hcg is going to be halted by the aromasin ...

So if you dont use high doses for long periods of time , hcg is actually pretty good in pct ( when combined with nolva and aromasin like i posted above).. I will say i do feel it is best to use hcg on pct if 1) it wasnt incorporated in your cycle 2) if you had atrophy during your cycle..

Heres a study showing that nolva blocks hcg effects on 17 ohp ..

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Drayer JI, Boers GH, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.
Intramuscular administration of 1500 IU hCG daily for 3 days induced a transient accumulation of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) relative to testosterone (T) in normal men, reaching its maximum 24 h after the first injection (17 OHP to T ratio, 1.7 +/- 0.3 times baseline; P < 0.01). Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.

PMID: 7419679 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE




Merc.

[Merc.]

Here a link to a interesting thread about it also if you guys wanna check it out ..


Can we KILL this topic once and for all please: Using hCG for PCT



Merc.

[peachfuzz]

Im a little confused Merc. those studies are showing that tamox blocks testicular desensitization correct? but what i am referring to is that hcg interrupts your own LH secretion.

[TITANIUM]

Here a link to a interesting thread about it also if you guys wanna check it out ..


Can we KILL this topic once and for all please: Using hCG for PCT



Merc.

Excellent read Merc.

Again, as usual

Best

T

[Merc.]

Im a little confused Merc. those studies are showing that tamox blocks testicular desensitization correct? but what i am referring to is that hcg interrupts your own LH secretion.

Sup Peach

I recently posted this somewhere else so i am parroting myself .. lol ....


There are studies that show that pre exposure to normal LH levels would be necessary for HCG induced leydig desensitization .. When a guy comes off of a cycle his LH is going to be low ( so it woundnt be a problem ... you just dont wanna use hcg for too long ).. Also other studies i have reviewed show that HCG doesnt have a direct effect on LH release ... rather it works by inhibiting it indirectly by stimulating test production ( and activating negative feed back loop).. So if you dont use too high of a dose .. and you dont use it for very long periods of time it is not going to be a concern ( and can be very helpful ) keep in mind I only like hcg in pct if you had testicular atrophy while on cycle ..

The problem with the HCG begin used in pct is the down regulation of the leydig LH receptor ( which is done by blocking the conversion of 17-0HP into test) .. This is why if you are going to try using HCG during pct it must be used with nolva.. The nlova helps to stop the blocking action of the HCG.. thats what the study i posted in my above post is showing .. (so when using nolva with hcg its suppressive nature is blocked).. another concern would be any suppression form the estrogen engendered by the hcg ... which is going to be stopped by using the aromasin .. So if someone was to want to use HCG for pct .. they must also use Aromasin and Nolva ..



Merc.

[peachfuzz]

got it. thanks for clearing that up for me.

my personal preference would still be to use in small doses throughout the cycle. but now i know it can be effectively used post as well.

[Merc.]

got it. thanks for clearing that up for me.

my personal preference would still be to use in small doses throughout the cycle. but now i know it can be effectively used post as well.

Yep I agree with you ..



Merc.

[Merc.]

Excellent read Merc.

Again, as usual

Best

T

Thanks T ...





Merc.

[bigpapabuff]

very good read, if you are looking for something other than aromasin you could go with some letro

[donopat]

hcg on cycle is the way to go. just a little. 250iu monday and thurs. did it for over a year. and used tren for at least 3 months no probs. did use a-dex for a whilke bvut ran out and didnt notice and difference so never got more. i finish with prop, so 3 days after last prop shot do 1 more 500iu hcg wait 4 days do 2 weeks clomid @100mg a day, than 3 weeks @50 a day.
nolva 2 weeks @40mg's a day, 4 weeks @! 20 a day.

was told to run the nolva 1 week past the clomid. not that it matters i dont know if it does

but running hcg this way has been amazing