Clomid - the big lie!!!

[GrandmasterSpank]

I recently did a lot of research on Clomid's use in PCT, as since using it, my libido has actually taken a dive (from where it was just prior to PCT), and my ejaculate volume is down to maybe half the usual amount...These are 2 effects that are the opposite of what Clomid is supposed to have in PCT. Anyway, I came across the following article, which I found very interesting, and would like share with everyone, and also to hear some professional opinions and counter-arguments, if there are any....

Like everyone else who has ever read a single book (or every book for that matter) on the proper use of anabolics, I usually included a course of Clomid after each cycle. It was the responsible thing to do. So they say. There was just one little problem with this procedure. It seemed to make the recovery and the return of libido, testicular size, sperm count, seminal volume and normal testosterone levels worse. How can this be? Maybe I was just a weird exception to the rule. One doctor suggested I might have some bizarre feedback loop that gave the drug its negative effects. Maybe I was crazy. Maybe not.

The simple truth of the matter is this: the thinking on Clomid is based on some very sketchy evidence which has been parroted endlessly among the bodybuilding community. In a way, I'm at fault myself. Allow me to explain.

A few years back, I co-wrote an article with Brock Strasser called "The Steroid Summit." In that piece, I mentioned Clomid and ejaculate volume. Where I was going with this was the fact that I noticed a definite decrease in ejaculate volume and this would indicate that Clomid wasn't doing what it was supposed to do. Brock replied "Oh yeah, Clomid will definitely increase ejaculate" and he went on to say how male porn stars are using it to enhance their "bursts of drama" so to speak. We were tackling a lot of topics and I didn't want to dispute his contention so I let it go. At any rate, wouldn't you know... the rumor about porn stars and Clomid ran rampant. I started hearing it everywhere, even in places unassociated with bodybuilding.

I knew I couldn't be the only person experiencing negative effects from Clomid so I did a little personal survey. It turns out I wasn't as weird as I thought. Out of over 100 bodybuilders I questioned, about 1 in 4 experienced in the use of steroids and aromatase blockers admitted that Clomid didn't have the effects they were hoping for. Many also claimed that Nolvadex , which has a very similar structure to Clomid, caused a loss in libido and a weak ejaculation. Even among those who felt it helped them, there were complaints about "emotional distress" and "weepiness", both of which suggest an increase in estrogen. So how can anyone be sure Clomid is actually beneficial?

Still, the rumors persist.

I was on a popular internet message board recently and someone was claiming that they weren't getting back their atrophied testicles even after using 50mgs of Clomid for two weeks. The resident "guru" suggested taking 100mgs for another two weeks. This line of thinking is straight from the middle ages when doctors prescribed leeches to cure a disease -- if the patient got sicker from the treatment the solution was; more leeches! Ridiculous? Of course. Some things never change.

There are several major problems associated with Clomid, as well as Arimidex , Nolvadex, Teslac or any other estrogen blocker. For one thing, all these compounds are indiscriminate in how much estrogen they block. So what's bad about that? Well, the whole point of using an anti-estrogen is to protect against the spillover of estrogen that comes with the excessive use of androgens. If the body can't metabolize all that testosterone , it aromatizes into estrogens. What the experts fail to address is the fact that the amount of aromatization varies greatly from individual to individual. If the steroid dosages are moderate, there might not be any aromatization of any consequence, and the anti-estrogens may lower levels below what they were normally! And keep one very important fact in mind. A little estrogen in men is necessary for a healthy libido. (It's also necessary for other things such as bone density, skin tone, etc., but I can't think of anything more important to most men than their dicks.)

More recently, it's even been suggested that estrogen may play a role in the proliferation of androgen receptors. This may explain why some experienced steroid users claim that they get decreased results when adding an anti-estrogen to their stack. It was once thought that anti-estrogens such as Nolvadex decreased IGF-1, but this has not been validated with any concrete evidence. Nevertheless, studies done on rats found that androgen receptor binding was dramatically increased after the administration of estradiol, increasing the anabolic potency of the androgenic steroid. If nothing else, this shows that estrogen is, on some level, directly or indirectly involved in the process of promoting muscle growth. There's also the added element of strength and size gains due to the water retention that estrogen inflicts. And just as a kicker, anti- estrogens may also increase sex hormone binding globulin which is the last thing you want when coming off a cycle.

In the case of Clomid, the effects may be even worse than other anti-estrogens since Clomid is a mild estrogen itself. The basic theory behind its use (which is sounding more and more stupid every day) is essentially that the Clomid will occupy the estrogen receptor sites thus disallowing the formation of more estrogen. Maybe. What's more likely in cases where estrogen levels are normal, the Clomid will simply add more estrogen. This may the reason for some people's apparent aversion to Clomid and its estrogen-like side effects. Even if Clomid did lower estrogen, there's no evidence that lower estrogen will necessarily lead to increased testosterone, yet this is the premise which everyone follows.

Clomid has also been known to produce a decrease in the LH response to LH releasing hormone. This is something that has been known for a while, (findings on this date as far back as 1978) yet curiously ignored. Naturally, studies aren't conducted to benefit the bodybuilder on steroids, so we must learn to read between the line sometimes. In doing so, conclusions can be drawn. All too often steroid gurus draw them incorrectly.

The notion of increased sperm count is also one of contention. Allow me to get technical for a moment and break my own rule about references for a second while I cite this quote from a study done on Clomid. "Treatments with idiopathic oligospermia for six to nine months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin testosterone and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with low sperm count below normal basal FSH levels. In cases where sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibitory effect."

What this suggests in plain English is that not everyone reacts to Clomid treatment in the same way and sperm levels must be abnormally suppressed for the drug to be of any benefit. And even in situations where that is the case, the side effect was lowered Follicle Stimulating Hormone, which as you may know, controls the amount of Leutinizing Hormone we release which in turn regulates how much testosterone we have. This is why so many bodybuilders claim to crash after coming off of the Clomid.

Judging from this information it's clear that Clomid, at best, is a crap shoot and its benefits, if any, are temporary. So why is everyone still taking it? Of course, this is hypothesis on my part and a lot of the pedants and pundits will refuse to acknowledge it. After all, all the pros use Clomid. Why should anyone listen to me? They don't have to, but they should.

I was speaking with Jerry Brainum on this very subject. I should mention, Jerry, unlike some of the self-appointed experts that abound on the internet and the world of underground newsletters, is one of the most knowledgeable people in the business on the subject of nutrition and pharmacology. He's been writing on the subject before most of these pseudo whiz kids were born. He knows everybody who is anybody in the world of bodybuilding. When I mentioned my theories about Clomid he said to me; "You're not alone. I don't know a single pro who still uses Clomid."

This in itself speaks volumes. Of course, it may not be the best validation for my argument since there are plenty of pro bodybuilders who are complete jackasses when it comes to knowledge and application of anabolics. He or she usually hires someone who knows something, or more likely, can get something. The protocol is then to load the syringe to the top and keep shooting until the stash is gone. Nevertheless, the fact that Clomid has lost its allure among the higher echelon on the bodybuilding ranks is a sure sign it isn't working well. If it did, they'd all use it, even if they stayed on 365 days a year. Who wouldn't want to maintain testicular size and increase natural production while keeping estrogen low? If Clomid was effective in doing so, there'd be no reason to stop. They know what works and what doesn't. And they know that Clomid sucks. (Of course, there's always some lunkhead who doesn't catch on right away.)

One last thing to keep in mind: Back in the 60's and early 70's no one used anti­estrogens. Look at the pictures of the stars of that time and you'd be hard pressed to find a case of gyno anywhere. Food for thought. The bottom line: If dosages are kept sane, Clomid wouldn't be needed -- even if it worked well, which it doesn't.

...Cheers y'all!

[GrandmasterSpank]

Oh, and here's a link to the article...

http://ecclessias.blogspot.com/2007/...d-big-lie.html

[D7M]

I stopped reading when he kept referring to clomid as an anti-estrogen.

[elpropiotorvic]

references/?

[gunslinger2]

I have read similar articles elsewhere. Those combined with some of clomids sides make me take a pass on it. The one statement I like the most out of the whole article is this:

One last thing to keep in mind: Back in the 60's and early 70's no one used anti­estrogens. Look at the pictures of the stars of that time and you'd be hard pressed to find a case of gyno anywhere. Food for thought. The bottom line: If dosages are kept sane, Clomid wouldn't be needed

Amen brother

[oscarjones]

Swifto is always preaching about Toremifene being the most superior SERM... Toremifene and Nolva are sounding like a better PCT everytime I read through these forums. I've only done one cycle and it was short and I used clomid/nolva for PCT... haven't had any problems so far.

[SilverTest]

i read that article from a long time , but it is filled with incorrect information .

clomid the big lie huh ? clomid gives you almost the same side effects as low

testosterone while you use it , when it is actually INCREASING it , thats because it

has some estrogenic activity . But when you finish your pct with it , you will see that

it is still one if not the best SERM for restarting the whole HPTA , swifto said it himself

that clomid is still KING for restarting the endocrine system.

you just have to man up and go through the clomid sides.

[GrandmasterSpank]

...clomid gives you almost the same side effects as low testosterone while you use it , when it is actually INCREASING it, thats because it has some estrogenic activity . But when you finish your pct with it , you will see that it is still one if not the best SERM for restarting the whole HPTA...

Ha, now I can actually relate to this from my previous experience/PCT with Clomid...about 3-4 days after my last tabs of Clomid & Nolva my sex drive and mood shot back up, so hopefully, that's exactly what I can expect this time also.

I started the Clomid at 100mg p/d for a first week last week, and I'm taking 50mg p/d this week and things are noticeably better, particularly mood-wise, so I may drop it down my dose to 25mg p/d for weeks 3 & 4.

[Swifto]

What a load of shit. What idiot route that?

[elpropiotorvic]

Still waiting for refferences

[SilverTest]

What a load of shit. What idiot route that?

this article is complete nonsense .

I think i read somewhere that the writer was pushing some other product for

pct or something.

[Noles12]

that article is nonsense

[Kibble]

Maybe trying to promote Novadex XT for pct lol

[gunslinger2]

After a few years of research I have to say this guy has as much of a point as anyone else. There is very little "real" science in the use of AAS simply because so few human studies have been done. Its 99% "bro science" and people get all pissed off when what they hear goes against what they have been told and believed for years.

30-40 years ago there was no such thing as PCT. Then its seems all of a sudden without any human studies being done we have all kinds of "experts" on PCT. It does not matter if you believe what the OPs article says or not he is basing it on what he has seen in himself and other bodybuilders. Same goes for people who are pro clomid.

Does anyone remember 5-6 years ago? Who had heard of HCG then? I had not. Its a fairly recent thing but to hear people talk now every cycle much have HCG in it. Then there was the big debate, do it after the cycle or little doses all through it. Taking HCG all through the cycle is now all the rage. If you could go back and talk to Larry Scott about your last cycle I'm sure he would tell you that taking 30mg of dbol per day is insane because that would last him a month.

Does anyone see my point here? This is NOT real science. Its all based on what people who have been around it for years see and observe. Don't be so quick to discount what the guy is saying. Just because everyone else is doing something does not make it right.

[ajd31886]

Def appears someone would put that out there to sabotage the reputation of Clomid in order to promote some other product. (No idea as to what other med it may be)
I find that sticking with the basics to begin with is generally where everyone should start. In the world of AAS everyone seems to have their own opinions, but when it comes down to it do your homework and try to determine what is going to work best for you! That's why I love the boards. Whenever new information surfaces it is usually posted for all to read, now depending on how educated you are on the subject you will be able to make an educated conclusion as to what information you want to utilize from that specific post. I personally dislike the clomid sides, but having used the drug in my PCT I know how quickly it helped me recover! Believe me, clomid sides are nothing compared to being shutdown for an extended period of time! First time I cycled I ended without any PCT (I was talked into cycling having seen the results of peers in highschool). Needless to say, I will never ever put something into my body anymore that I have not personally researched myself. So in a way, i'm glad I learned the hard way. This was total hell. I was on an emotional roller coaster for over 2months, had no sex-drive, acne all over, and severely depressed . Always keep in mind that you didn't shut yourself down overnight so you cannot expect to bounce back overnight. Altho Clomid has def. helped speed things up for me. Bottom line is, there is a list of meds out there to take, so if one doesn't work for you; figure out why and develop a plan of action to find out what will give you the results you desire. Be aware of what's going on in your body and be able to recognize the symptoms and go from there. I do not feel that it is necessary to label Clomid the "BIG LIE". The information posted may sound like it makes sense "theoretically" but, "scientifically" it would appear that your article is a BIG LIE. Posting inaccurate information on a board that members seek advice is not the most prudent thing to do.

[gunslinger2]

Nice avatar.

[oscarjones]

lol..

[TITANIUM]

What the f*ck?

Best

T

[iron minded]

also makes you think that pyramiding test towards the end of your cycle might not be all such a bad thing particularly if you feel a sudden drop of libido after a heavy cycle..etc

[Jbert22]

well scientifically the only way to actually PROVE that clomid works is to have bloodwork done before and after a cycle of CLOMID ONLY. trying to keep all variables the same such as diet workout sex sleep and taking the lab samples at the same time of day (morning) for both of the tests should give damn accurate results... just my 2 cents!!!

[alpenguy]

Def appears someone would put that out there to sabotage the reputation of Clomid in order to promote some other product. (No idea as to what other med it may be)
I find that sticking with the basics to begin with is generally where everyone should start. In the world of AAS everyone seems to have their own opinions, but when it comes down to it do your homework and try to determine what is going to work best for you! That's why I love the boards. Whenever new information surfaces it is usually posted for all to read, now depending on how educated you are on the subject you will be able to make an educated conclusion as to what information you want to utilize from that specific post. I personally dislike the clomid sides, but having used the drug in my PCT I know how quickly it helped me recover! Believe me, clomid sides are nothing compared to being shutdown for an extended period of time! First time I cycled I ended without any PCT (I was talked into cycling having seen the results of peers in highschool). Needless to say, I will never ever put something into my body anymore that I have not personally researched myself. So in a way, i'm glad I learned the hard way. This was total hell. I was on an emotional roller coaster for over 2months, had no sex-drive, acne all over, and severely depressed . Always keep in mind that you didn't shut yourself down overnight so you cannot expect to bounce back overnight. Altho Clomid has def. helped speed things up for me. Bottom line is, there is a list of meds out there to take, so if one doesn't work for you; figure out why and develop a plan of action to find out what will give you the results you desire. Be aware of what's going on in your body and be able to recognize the symptoms and go from there. I do not feel that it is necessary to label Clomid the "BIG LIE". The information posted may sound like it makes sense "theoretically" but, "scientifically" it would appear that your article is a BIG LIE. Posting inaccurate information on a board that members seek advice is not the most prudent thing to do.

That is one of the best posts I have ever read.

[alpenguy]

Gunslingers post was what I meant... although adj has a good post. You guys really need to decide who gets the skull..lol

[TITANIUM]

I recently did a lot of research on Clomid's use in PCT, as since using it, my libido has actually taken a dive (from where it was just prior to PCT), and my ejaculate volume is down to maybe half the usual amount...These are 2 effects that are the opposite of what Clomid is supposed to have in PCT. Anyway, I came across the following article, which I found very interesting, and would like share with everyone, and also to hear some professional opinions and counter-arguments, if there are any....



...Cheers y'all!

Who ever wrote this never did aas.

There is no other explanation.

Best

T

[**TOP**]

The guy that wrote that is named NELSON MONTANA.


WHO?

EXACTLY!

[**TOP**]

This is the table of contents of his book ELITE FITNESS.

BOTTOMLINE BODYBUILDING
Nelson Montana for Elite Fitness 3
THE BOTTOM LINE… What It All Comes Down To............................................ 5
SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT.......................................... ......................... 9
CLOMID - THE BIG LIE .................................................. .................................. 12
IF YOU MUST.............................................. .................................................. ...... 16
WAR! (On Drugs) WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR? .................................................. ... 17
STEROIDS FOR HEALTH 2002.............................................. ........................... 23
IS DECA DEAD?............................................. .................................................. . 37
HCG -- Without The Gyno .................................................. .................................. 38
MAIL ORDER MUSCLE .................................................. ................................... 40
THE NEW PROHORMONES Same Shit Different Day ...................................... 42
IDOL GOSSIP The Lost Interview .................................................. .................... 45
THE BOTTOM LINE ON NUTRITION......................................... ...................... 56
FIRE UP THE FURNACE! How To Get Your Thyroid To Burn Fat For You....... 60
GAIN TEN POUNDS IN TWO WEEKS -- DRUG FREE (This Is Not An Ad).... 67
LOWER ESTROGEN - NATURALLY! Get Hard and Stay Hard......................... 72
WELCOME TO THE LATE SHOW.............................................. ....................... 77
THE TEST OF TIME The Effects of Testosterone Over The Years..................... 80
POST SCRIPT .................................................. .................................................. .. 85
THE BOTTOM LINE ON TRAINING .................................................. ............... 86
TRAINING: The Nuts And Bolts .................................................. ....................... 87
OUTLANDISH LEGS! An All Out Assault For a Wicked Set of Wheels .............. 94
BETTER BICEPS A Quick and Effective Method............................................ .... 97
IMPROVE YOUR LAT-TITUDE Setting Your Mind Up For a Broader Back ...... 99
TRIED AND TRUE Triceps: A Unique Triceps Movement That Guarantees Great
Guns! .................................................. .................................................. .............. 103
SERRATUS MAGNUS - The Forgotten Muscles........................................... ..... 105
NO CALVES? NO PROBLEM!.......................................... ................................ 109
DARING MOVES FOR DYNAMIC DELTS 7 Shoulder Exercises You've Never
Tried -- And Should! .................................................. ......................................... 111
NO BARS HELD Build an Armor Plated Chest--Without Barbells or Dumbells!115
YOU CAN SPOT-REDUCE! (Sort of) With These Secret Methods .................. 118
PERPETUAL PROGRESS Radical Techniques for Avoiding Plateaus ............... 122
ULTIMATE INTENSITY - Is It Necessary For Muscle Growth?........................ 126
INSTINCTIVE TRAINING Can You Trust It? .................................................. . 129
REBOUND TRAINING How Re-Training Your Muscles Can Re-Generate Growth
.................................................. .................................................. ........................ 132
YOU CAN'T GROW WITHOUT IT .................................................. ................. 136
TIME UNDER TENSION It May Be More Important Than Sets And Reps ........ 139
HOW DO YOU RATE? Are Your Muscles as Strong as They Should Be? ......... 142
JUST ANOTHER DAY .................................................. .................................... 146
GOLD IN A GARBAGE BIN .................................................. ........................... 149
OVERLOOKING THE UNOBVIOUS......................................... ....................... 151
CURTAIN CALLS AND CLOSINGS .................................................. .............. 155
SECOND CHANCES .................................................. ....................................... 158

[TITANIUM]

This is the table of contents of his book ELITE FITNESS.

BOTTOMLINE BODYBUILDING
Nelson Montana for Elite Fitness 3
THE BOTTOM LINE… What It All Comes Down To............................................ 5
SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT.......................................... ......................... 9
CLOMID - THE BIG LIE .................................................. .................................. 12
IF YOU MUST.............................................. .................................................. ...... 16
WAR! (On Drugs) WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR? .................................................. ... 17
STEROIDS FOR HEALTH 2002.............................................. ........................... 23
IS DECA DEAD?............................................. .................................................. . 37
HCG -- Without The Gyno .................................................. .................................. 38
MAIL ORDER MUSCLE .................................................. ................................... 40
THE NEW PROHORMONES Same Shit Different Day ...................................... 42
IDOL GOSSIP The Lost Interview .................................................. .................... 45
THE BOTTOM LINE ON NUTRITION......................................... ...................... 56
FIRE UP THE FURNACE! How To Get Your Thyroid To Burn Fat For You....... 60
GAIN TEN POUNDS IN TWO WEEKS -- DRUG FREE (This Is Not An Ad).... 67
LOWER ESTROGEN - NATURALLY! Get Hard and Stay Hard......................... 72
WELCOME TO THE LATE SHOW.............................................. ....................... 77
THE TEST OF TIME The Effects of Testosterone Over The Years..................... 80
POST SCRIPT .................................................. .................................................. .. 85
THE BOTTOM LINE ON TRAINING .................................................. ............... 86
TRAINING: The Nuts And Bolts .................................................. ....................... 87
OUTLANDISH LEGS! An All Out Assault For a Wicked Set of Wheels .............. 94
BETTER BICEPS A Quick and Effective Method............................................ .... 97
IMPROVE YOUR LAT-TITUDE Setting Your Mind Up For a Broader Back ...... 99
TRIED AND TRUE Triceps: A Unique Triceps Movement That Guarantees Great
Guns! .................................................. .................................................. .............. 103
SERRATUS MAGNUS - The Forgotten Muscles........................................... ..... 105
NO CALVES? NO PROBLEM!.......................................... ................................ 109
DARING MOVES FOR DYNAMIC DELTS 7 Shoulder Exercises You've Never
Tried -- And Should! .................................................. ......................................... 111
NO BARS HELD Build an Armor Plated Chest--Without Barbells or Dumbells!115
YOU CAN SPOT-REDUCE! (Sort of) With These Secret Methods .................. 118
PERPETUAL PROGRESS Radical Techniques for Avoiding Plateaus ............... 122
ULTIMATE INTENSITY - Is It Necessary For Muscle Growth?........................ 126
INSTINCTIVE TRAINING Can You Trust It? .................................................. . 129
REBOUND TRAINING How Re-Training Your Muscles Can Re-Generate Growth
.................................................. .................................................. ........................ 132
YOU CAN'T GROW WITHOUT IT .................................................. ................. 136
TIME UNDER TENSION It May Be More Important Than Sets And Reps ........ 139
HOW DO YOU RATE? Are Your Muscles as Strong as They Should Be? ......... 142
JUST ANOTHER DAY .................................................. .................................... 146
GOLD IN A GARBAGE BIN .................................................. ........................... 149
OVERLOOKING THE UNOBVIOUS......................................... ....................... 151
CURTAIN CALLS AND CLOSINGS .................................................. .............. 155
SECOND CHANCES .................................................. ....................................... 158

I'll make sure I run out and get a copy today................................





Best

T

[BJJ]

Nice avatar.

You should have a patent man...

[BJJ]

I'll make sure I run out and get a copy today................................





Best

T

I can give you mine if you want...

[youngerlion]

[**TOP**]

I can give you mine if you want...

Mine to! if you dont mind that i wiped my ass with it!

[gunslinger2]

Gunslingers post was what I meant... although adj has a good post. You guys really need to decide who gets the skull..lol

Well, I was here first.......

[ranging1]

Def appears someone would put that out there to sabotage the reputation of Clomid in order to promote some other product. (No idea as to what other med it may be)
I find that sticking with the basics to begin with is generally where everyone should start. In the world of AAS everyone seems to have their own opinions, but when it comes down to it do your homework and try to determine what is going to work best for you! That's why I love the boards. Whenever new information surfaces it is usually posted for all to read, now depending on how educated you are on the subject you will be able to make an educated conclusion as to what information you want to utilize from that specific post. I personally dislike the clomid sides, but having used the drug in my PCT I know how quickly it helped me recover! Believe me, clomid sides are nothing compared to being shutdown for an extended period of time! First time I cycled I ended without any PCT (I was talked into cycling having seen the results of peers in highschool). Needless to say, I will never ever put something into my body anymore that I have not personally researched myself. So in a way, i'm glad I learned the hard way. This was total hell. I was on an emotional roller coaster for over 2months, had no sex-drive, acne all over, and severely depressed . Always keep in mind that you didn't shut yourself down overnight so you cannot expect to bounce back overnight. Altho Clomid has def. helped speed things up for me. Bottom line is, there is a list of meds out there to take, so if one doesn't work for you; figure out why and develop a plan of action to find out what will give you the results you desire. Be aware of what's going on in your body and be able to recognize the symptoms and go from there. I do not feel that it is necessary to label Clomid the "BIG LIE". The information posted may sound like it makes sense "theoretically" but, "scientifically" it would appear that your article is a BIG LIE. Posting inaccurate information on a board that members seek advice is not the most prudent thing to do.

have to agree, absolute great post

well i think the articles good, helps give a better perception and knowledge into clomid

[Big red one]

good post I like to read info with a different point of view from the norm.

[Subotai]

its nice to see someone challenging set ideas.

But every study I've read makes me fairly confident in Clomid as pct

[Swifto]

That piece of shit post by Nelson contains no references. Anyone can claim this and that.