My Gyno Reversal Effort!

**savking** · 02-25-2011, 05:42 PM

So after Id finished my cycle and PCT (pct ended first week of Feb) I now seem to have some form of gyno development. I need some advice on what actions I can take.
I was thinking using letro but as my source dosnt stock that I would have to use the ar stuff. Is that still suitable? Here are the dosages

Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro until gyno is gone

taken from "all you need to know about GYNO" thread

now obviously ar arnt 100% reliable through no fault of there own. So i might have a long wait or not even get the products (Im in UK). So on that note would using tamox/nova up until I get my products make any sence? I was thinking a dosage of 20mg pd??

For anyone wanting to jump on the your to young band wagon I am aware Im to young (22 years) I was ill advised by the gym gurus as I suspect many of you where too at my age.

I dont intend to use aas again for a long time. So please no flaming.

**Matt** · 02-25-2011, 05:56 PM

I would hold off with the letro for now and run the nolva at 40mg ed until gyno disappears then drop the dose to 20mgs for a further 2 weeks.. I find nolva very effective and is used to treat males with gyno issues...

**savking** · 02-25-2011, 06:10 PM

Ok that would be easier in my current situation. Do you think its worth ordering some letro just in case So at least ill have it for when/if it comes to it? Do you see any need for me to use some form of natty test booster with nolva I would of with the letro due to its supresive nature (think thats right) but is there any point to this on nolva?
Thanks Matt

**Matt** · 02-26-2011, 06:09 AM

You will be fine with the nolva imo but you can order your letro as a very last resort..

But for now run the nolva as instructed and report back, no need for test boosters...

**savking** · 02-26-2011, 07:28 AM

Appreciate the advice thanks!

**CMB** · 02-26-2011, 08:29 AM

Yes stay away from letro if you can!

I for one can testify that tamox gets rid of gyno. I used it about 6 months ago and it has yet to come back! So the whole "Nolva does nothing for existing gyno" is a load of parroted crap.

40mgs ED as said above, good luck.

**BigBlackGuy** · 02-26-2011, 08:55 PM

16 Ways to Fight Gynecomastia

Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders alike, and is the founder & president of Primordial Performance.

discuss this article in the forum

Gynecomastia = Gyno

Most people think the only way to combat gyno is to use Nolvadex or Clomid. Considering the undesirable side-effects of these drugs, I generally don’t prefer these as the first line of defense. I have expressed my concerns about SERM’s in my article – Clomid & Nolvadex – The Dark Side.

In this article I summarize alternative methods for combating the occurrence of gyno. The advice given in this article is the result of over 10 years experience in counseling individuals with AAS induced gyno.

If you have gyno as a result of an endocrine disorder, I advise consulting your doctor before making changes to your prescribed medical regimen.

You Do Not Have Gyno!

During mammary tissue growth (the onset of gyno), you may notice the following symptoms -

* Puffy or swollen nipples
* Overly sensitive nipples
* Itchiness around the nipples

Editorial note: I promise -- that is the last time I will ever say nipples.

Now, just because you may have these symptoms does not mean you HAVE GYNO. It simply means that you HAVE GYNO SYMPTOMS. Remember, it is normal to have a small flat pea sized lump under the nipple. This is NOT gyno.

Now, if you allow these above symptoms to progress for several weeks then you may develop gyno. So if you are experiencing any of the above symptoms then you are smart to take action before it’s too late – But please stop emailing me saying you “have gyno” after 3 days on a cycle – this is physiologically impossible.

The good news is that even if you do have a slight case of gyno that you developed from a cycle, it’s probably 100% reversible. Read on…

Nipples.

Gyno Hysteria

No level of gyno is “permanent”. Any level of gyno can be reversed by dietary, supplemental and/or hormonal intervention. Mammary tissue (gyno) can be catabolized like any other tissue in the body. It’s just a matter of creating the right physiological environment within your body. Therefore, as far as I’m concerned, all gyno is temporary or semi-permanent at worse.

Here are the basic levels of gyno -

Level 1 – A dime sized glandular lump – which can emerge as soon as 2-3 weeks after “gyno symptoms” appear. This type of gyno can transform into a more serious level 2 gyno if left untreated for more than 4-6 weeks. In most cases, this initial level 1 gyno disappears once the hormonal environment improves, which is generally 2-3 weeks after the inflicting steroids clear the system.

Level 2 – A quarter sized glandular lump. This type of gyno does not completely disappear on its own, but may gradually shrink to “Level 1” size after discontinuing the inflicting steroids. Completely reversing level 2 gyno requires aggressive dietary and supplemental intervention in conjunction with prescription grade drugs.

Generally, the levels of gyno can be referred to in the following way –

level 1 = temporary

level 2 = semi-permanent

Be warned, if gyno is allowed to grow large enough, the cost of surgery may be more cost efficient than trying to battle the gyno through drug and lifestyle changes – which could otherwise take months or years of intervention.

Following the 16 points below will help you prevent and reverse level 1 & 2 gyno -

The 16 Points

Consider all the following points. Remember, there are many factors that can contribute to gyno and performing just a handful of the points below may be the key to avoiding gyno all together.

1. Your naturally occurring 5a-reduced metabolites are your friends in preventing and reversing gyno. 5a-reduced metabolites include androsterone, androstanedione, androstanediol and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) as the most powerful 5a-reduced hormone. These hormones help prevent gyno by lowering estrogen and blocking the effect of estrogen at the hormone receptor. (1-8) Unless you have serious androgen related hair loss you want to keep your 5a-reduced metabolites relatively high to avoid gyno.

Methods for increasing 5a-reduced metabolites (DHT) are listed in preferred order –

* Topical testosterone applied to the scrotum will rapidly increase DHT levels with minimal estrogen conversion. (for more information on topical steroids, read this article)

* Use a DHT pro-hormone such as androsterone, found in AndroHard. This will raise DHT with zero risk of estrogen conversion.

* Injectable testosterone along with an AI to prevent excessive estrogen conversion.

* High dose oral 4-DHEA or DHEA along with an AI to prevent excessive estrogen conversion.

2. If you are concerned about gyno, avoid finesteride at all costs. It lowers all 5a-reduced metabolites to undesirable levels and has an extremely long half-life which continues to suppress DHT levels long after discontinuing the drug. (9) Progesterone would be a better anti-DHT alternative if you are concerned with hair loss. Plus, progesterone can clear the system within 24hrs making a mistake in dosing much less risky.

3. Almost all sources of gyno can be linked back to having insufficient levels of 5a-reduced metabolites in the body. In theory, any amount of estrogen/progesterone can be blocked by sufficient DHT. (10-14) Also, high DHT and enlargement of the prostate is a myth, however high estrogen and high DHT can lead to an inflamed prostate, so you want to at least make an effort to keep estrogen in a normal range. (14)

4. Trenbolone , TREN , Nandrolone can cause gyno because they lack a potent 5a-reduced metabolite (dihydronandrolone is weaker than dihydrotestosterone). (15) If you are worried about gyno from progestational steroids you should consider boosting your 5a-reduced metabolites during the cycle (mentioned above). This can avoid most if not all of the gyno problems associated with progestational hormones. I should mention here that aromatase inhibitors alone (AI’s) will not help prevent gyno from progestational compounds. It is the antagonistic action of 5a-reduced hormones that is required.

5. Nothing is going to antagonize estrogen at the estrogen receptor (ER) better than actual DHT. While DHT derivatives or analogs such as Anavar , Winstrol , Masteron , Epistane, Superdrone, ect may be 5a-reduced, they cannot convert to actual DHT and thus cannot directly inhibit gyno at the receptor level (since they lack the ultra-high binding affinity for the AR that true DHT possesses). (16)

6. Natural anti-estrogens (resveratrol, chrysin, I3C, DIM, ect) are great for PCT and can stimulate the HPTA and manage healthy estrogen metabolism, but they are not strong enough to prevent aromatization from high doses of aromatizing steroids. Don’t rely on these to prevent gyno during a cycle.

7. Reducing prolactin will reduce the overall stimulation on mammary growth. Suppressing prolactin is useful as a temporary method to help slow or stop gyno growth. However, continuing anti-prolactin treatment is not recommended to be continued beyond 8 weeks. Methods of suppressing prolactin include –

* Vitex at 460mg/day
* Vitamin B6 at 200-400mg/day
* Mucuna Pruriens (15%-20% L-Dopa) 4-6g/day
* Increasing DHT may also lower prolactin release (17)

8. Don’t fiddle with your nipples. This increases prolactin release which can make gyno worse.

9. IGF-1, GH, insulin and prolactin are all potent growth factors in gyno growth. Limiting these hormones will reduce the likelihood of experiencing gyno symptoms. “Bulking” (aka., eating-a-****load-of-everything) will increase most of the growth factors listed above. Cutting calories (especially carbohydrates) will suppress insulin and IGF-1 therefore reducing the overall stimulatory effect on mammary growth. Ketogenic diet = less risk of gyno.

10. Body fat (adipose tissue) is the main site for androgens to convert to estrogens. Therefore, being overweight or having high body fat increases your gyno risk. This is another good reason to go on a cutting cycle if you are gyno prone. Reducing body fat will lower your rate of estrogen conversion from aromatizing steroids. (18)

11. Caffeine consumption can inhibit clearance of estrogen from the liver by competing for the P-450 oxidase system. Avoid caffeine if you are concerned about high estrogen levels.

12. Avoid supplements containing forskolin if concerned about gyno. Forskolin increases aromatase activity via cAMP modulation and can increase formation of estrogen. (23,24)

13. Increasing fiber intake (both soluble and insoluble) can enhance clearance of estrogens from the intestines. Research shows that increasing fiber intake in humans can reduce estrogen levels by up to 22%. (19)

14. Reducing estrogen below the normal range (such as over dosing arimidex , letrozol, aromasin or formestane) can eventually reduce SHBG levels, thus allowing more estrogen to freely circulate (by offsetting it from SHBG). Higher levels of freely circulating estrogen can amplify breast tissue growth (20). SHBG also appears to have anti-estrogenic effects at the cell receptor level. (21, 22) Avoiding over suppression of SHBG will reduce your gyno risk.

15. Don’t be afraid to lower the dose mid cycle. People have a tendency to panic at the first sign of gyno and drop everything. Generally, just lowering the dose of the afflicting steroid can offer gyno relief within 4-5 days.

16. Save SERM’s as your last resort against gyno. You do not need a SERM (tormifene, clomid or nolva) to avoid gyno from a properly planned cycle. If you are still having gyno problems after following the above points

**charliemurphy229** · 02-28-2011, 01:48 PM

wow, very good gyno info. I do like letro but it is very strong, hopefully the nolva works well for you.

**savking** · 03-16-2011, 06:40 PM

Been on nolva 40 mg pd and I dont know if it was something in my head but the gyno cant be seen any more. Its still present as I can feel it. Plus my body fat has dropped in which case it should become more noticeable but obviously thats not the case. So will continue at this dosage for now. Thank you guys.

**BigBlackGuy** · 03-19-2011, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by savking

Been on nolva 40 mg pd and I dont know if it was something in my head but the gyno cant be seen any more. Its still present as I can feel it. Plus my body fat has dropped in which case it should become more noticeable but obviously thats not the case. So will continue at this dosage for now. Thank you guys.

Dropping water for sure with letro. How are the joints feeling? Shit made me creaky at 2.5 mg. I only dosed it at that for one day as well after doing .4 mg for a while.

**Matt** · 03-19-2011, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by savking

Been on nolva 40 mg pd and I dont know if it was something in my head but the gyno cant be seen any more. Its still present as I can feel it. Plus my body fat has dropped in which case it should become more noticeable but obviously thats not the case. So will continue at this dosage for now. Thank you guys.

That will be the nolva working mate.

Well done and as i said keep away from letro and keep up with the nolva...

**savking** · 05-20-2011, 03:13 PM

ok so i came off nolva - came down to 20mg for two weeks and gyno reappeared a few weeks later. Am now on it again but dont see much if any improvement. How long can I continue to use nolva? Would taking a natty test booster aggravate my gyno further?

**roki123** · 05-21-2011, 01:08 PM

sorry just one question, how long did you take 40mg ED ?

**Lil-C** · 05-21-2011, 01:37 PM

I would like to know also. I've been on nolva 40mg Ed for 6 days now. Was wondering how long before I should start to see a change in the gyno

**roki123** · 05-21-2011, 02:08 PM

well it depends on how bad the gyno is, how long have you waited and then start using nolva... best of luck to us all

**savking** · 05-22-2011, 02:24 PM

8 Weeks

**roki123** · 05-22-2011, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by savking

8 Weeks

so did the gyno lumps dissapeared or you didnt had them at all ?
I personally have a small lump in right breast and i'll go nolva a month or even more at 40mg ED untill that small shit vanishes, and then tapper down slowly 30/20/10 and stop completely, if this fails to work, then letro's my only choice... stupid gyno %#@!%$@

**vvob** · 05-27-2011, 03:34 PM

Dear all,
I have the same problem.

I have done a PH cycle with
M-Drol
M1,4ADD
for one month. The followed by 1 month of Advanced PCT (anabolicx) and D-aspartic acid for one month

Then started the third month with tribulus and creatin.
In the last days of the second month I saw that my nipples are becoming a lil bit puffy and I have a lump under one of them

4-5 days later I started taking 20mg pd Tamoxifen and stopped the tribulus.
Today is DAY 8 of taking Tamoxifen and no visual results are taking place.
I am now increasing the dosage to 40mg pd.

Do you have any more suggestions for my case?!

**vvob** · 05-27-2011, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by vvob

Dear all,
I have the same problem.

I have done a PH cycle with
M-Drol
M1,4ADD
for one month. The followed by 1 month of Advanced PCT (anabolicx) and D-aspartic acid for one month

Then started the third month with tribulus and creatin.
In the last days of the second month I saw that my nipples are becoming a lil bit puffy and I have a lump under one of them

4-5 days later I started taking 20mg pd Tamoxifen and stopped the tribulus.
Today is DAY 8 of taking Tamoxifen and no visual results are taking place.
I am now increasing the dosage to 40mg pd.

Do you have any more suggestions for my case?!

More info about me:
age: 26
height: 166cm
weight: 63kg
Experience in bb: 8 years

Done several TEST cyclec before, no side effect at all. But this PH cycle really did it....

**mxbrown** · 05-30-2011, 03:45 PM

I just treated an old gyno issue. I had a post "going to the doc for old gyno".
In short... I ran nolva 40/40/20/10 and did not notice anything until after the cycle. I kept on the cycle just to finish the tabs I had on hand and ordered 3 bottles of letro and more nolva. But after about 3-4 days after my last nolva tab, I noticed the pain had completely gone and the size of the lump shrank about 80%. The lump is still there but far better than it had been the 8 months prior. So, the nolva seems to have worked for me. As far as the doc visits go, he just told me to give my body time to heal itself. So I made an appt to see him in 6 months, after my current Cyp dBol cycle. Stupid doctors!

Try the nolva and be patient, then try the letro. Good luck!

**vvob** · 05-31-2011, 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by mxbrown

I just treated an old gyno issue. I had a post "going to the doc for old gyno".
In short... I ran nolva 40/40/20/10 and did not notice anything until after the cycle. I kept on the cycle just to finish the tabs I had on hand and ordered 3 bottles of letro and more nolva. But after about 3-4 days after my last nolva tab, I noticed the pain had completely gone and the size of the lump shrank about 80%. The lump is still there but far better than it had been the 8 months prior. So, the nolva seems to have worked for me. As far as the doc visits go, he just told me to give my body time to heal itself. So I made an appt to see him in 6 months, after my current Cyp dBol cycle. Stupid doctors!

Try the nolva and be patient, then try the letro. Good luck!

It is now probably 4-5th day of Nolva 40mg pd. Still nothing.
I will try it for 10-15 more days and probably will visit a doctor...

**NewbFromCali** · 05-31-2011, 11:37 AM

Just read through a bunch of this thread. I have a decent level 1 gyno thing right now. I stopped taking gear and started OTC PCT but it didn't take. I saw/am seeing a HRT specialist and they started me on low test injects and arimidex . Is it possible for this to go away to a point where I won't feel like I need surgery? Some of the users here are pretty set in the "you need surgery" thing. I can take nolva, or arimidex. The doctor gives both but I crashed pretty hard from the crap I was taking (and it was crap) so shes got me in an AI instead of a blocker. Thoughts?

**Deiz29** · 06-01-2011, 10:11 PM

I have taken liquidex the whole time I have taken my "anavar " Which I'm not to sure if it is or not....its small orange round pills w sm on one side. I know they're pep superman edition but I don't know how 40mg of var a day w armidex can cause a peanut size lump under my nipple. Has anyone ever had this problem w such a low dose of var? I have been taking them for 36 days at one 20mg am and one pm with half mg of dex each time.

**kelkel** · 06-02-2011, 08:54 AM

Var does not aromatize. Look elsewhere for root cause.

**dexstar138** · 06-02-2011, 04:28 PM

lipo doc and $5000 its the only way

**jasperhup** · 06-05-2011, 10:40 AM

I did 2 cycles. First i ran mast and T prop, maybe the slightest nipple sensitivity but it went away. Second was a bit of Var (which I did not care for) and more T prop. In the second one I most def got some Gyno symptoms, and they got worse and worse. I came to realize that these happened when I shot HCG on cycle. I ran Adex a little at a time (like a half or quarter every few days) and IMO it was clearly the lack of Mast and the HCG that did it to me. I stopped the HCG, and nolva and Clomid (on cycle) didn't stop it. I ordered AR Letro and it did the trick, but not fun to take. I know the standard idea here is running HCG on cycle, but I'll never do that again. I will run it right after/into PCT. I also like the 100 Clomid and 40 Nolva to start, and maybe 5 or 6 weeks PCT just to be super sure.

I did have a ****ed up libido/ED a couple months after the cycle. I thought it lasted longer than that, but looking back I realize it was in my head after the first month or so, which makes sense because there is a big mental aspect of Libido.

So from my experience:
1 Letro did the trick, NOT FUN.
2 No HCG on cycle
3 Mast seems to stop E related sides well

Just my experience and I know some vets have a different idea on HCG, but that's that.

**ThE DarK KnighT** · 06-05-2011, 09:02 PM

Only take Liq Letro if absolutely necessary. It is strong stuff, and can really mess with your body at medium to high doses. It will also kill any and all gains if taken on cycle. I know gyno is horrible, but really think about the Letro before you start. Also, be prepared to be on it for a good 2-3 months before you see any results. Just my 2 cents.

**vvob** · 06-06-2011, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by ThE DarK KnighT

Only take Liq Letro if absolutely necessary. It is strong stuff, and can really mess with your body at medium to high doses. It will also kill any and all gains if taken on cycle. I know gyno is horrible, but really think about the Letro before you start. Also, be prepared to be on it for a good 2-3 months before you see any results. Just my 2 cents.

I friend of mine told be he was taking Tamoxifen 20mg for 2 months and half before his lump dissappeared. Is it possible to be that huge amount of time? I expected that after two weeks I will be OK but guess I was wrong...

First the lump should disappear and then the puffy nipples or?!

**rcks** · 06-06-2011, 10:59 PM

I started noticing some light gyno, adipose tissue accumulation on my nipples.

Not the lumps.

Anyhow, I would like to try some letro and get rid of it quickly.

In regards to the rebound effect post letro, I read nolva should be used for a couple weeks.

Would aromasin be more effective in this case?

As I would be able to preserve the test that was increased by the letro and block any aromatase that would occur from the high test levels?

Rather than waiting for it to convert and simply blocking it at the receptor with nolva?

**jerm2424** · 06-12-2011, 11:40 PM

great info, i really thank you for putting that up. just a few questions if u don't mind. i have had what i believe to be gyno for about 2 to 3 years know, it has always hurt and has gotten to be much bigger then stage 2 as you write. i just heard about this and i am wishing that i would of known more about it prior. what do i do? i have seen a doctor but im very concerned about scaring. i am also thinking of getting back on some supplements and if so what should i take to make sure this does not grow or come back if i have to get it surgically removed. thank u for your time.

**Minion0812** · 06-13-2011, 08:46 AM

Can Nolva be taken throughout a cycle to prevent or get rid of current gyno or should I stick with buying aromasin ?

thanks!

**vvob** · 06-17-2011, 05:58 AM

I am now around the 30th day of Tamoxifen 40mg/day.

I can now say the the lump is smaller and it is not that hard. The puffy nipples are probably half of their size.

I will continue Tamoxifen 40mg/d until everything is over and then 1 week 20mg/day

**vvob** · 07-01-2011, 03:49 AM

up ...

**mxbrown** · 12-16-2011, 08:55 PM

Well, last I left you all was a while ago.
Good news, I beefed up the treatment to letro. I use a scale up method .1ml all the way up to 1ml. I did 1ml fort only about 4-5 days and went back down to .5ml where I stayed until using a whole bottle of liquid letro. The gyno got crushed. It's probably 95% or more gone. Actually I never really squeezed and examined my nipples so much. As far as I know it's always been a little larger and firm than the other.
So, don't jump the gun with fear if you have some gyno, old or new. Give the month of Nolva and a bottle of letro a try.
I got A LOT of good info from the boards. THANKS ALL.