2 Years Shut Down - light at the end of the Torem?

[2nd Cycle Blues]

I’ll try to make this short.

After a PCT went wrong I’ve been shut down for two years. These have been the worst years of my life and I tried everything except going back to research chemicals. I tried exercise, good diet, a brief trt with an urologist that only made things worst. My sex life completely disappeared.
So, last week I decided to give research chemicals another shot. A friend recommended toremifene and aromasin in the following dosage:

TOREM - 120 (3 days) 90/90/60/30
AROMASIN – 12.5 EOD

Other OTC things I’m taking are macca, tribulus, l-carnitine, multivitamins and ZMA.

So I take 120mg of Torem the first day (no aromasin that day) around 6pm and behold, a few hours later I get the best hard on I ever got in two years. I thought “I’m cured, my dick is back, Torem is the shit” and proceeded to masturbate about 6 times. I know I’m not supposed to masturbate during PCT but you have to understand where I’m coming from.

Next day things change and I’m back to my no-libido self, I get worried. Then I repeat the dosage that night, my balls start to hurt and my dick comes back with another decent erection. This happened for the first 3 days, night good - day bad. After day 4, my nipples and my balls started hurting like crazy and then I’m back to my old self. No libido, no decent erections and to make things worst my sperm turns all clear and liquidy. Today I’m on day 5 (90mg) and still the same problems.

So what happened on those first 3 days that is not happening now??? Was it the 120mg??? Isn’t that supposed to be too much? Should I remove the aromasin or increase its dosage? What should I do different considering that I’m not coming from a cycle but from a 2 year shut down? I’m I worrying too soon and should wait?

Please, I could use some help around here. These 2 years have been terrible and those first 3 days with Torem gave me hope.

One other thing is that I should receive Sustain Alpha next week together with testojack200, fenugreek and ICariin. Should I take those, will they help?????

Thanks mates

[Matt]

If you've been shut down for two years then i suggest you visit your doctor or an endo doctor...

[Fit N Fun]

This has been discussed on here before, fairly certain Swifto put forward a regime that you go through, it was an extreme version of the standard PCT.

Get searching.

Seems a shame that you have left it two years, since that will not have helped you recover at all.

Fairly certain you need to get your balls re-flated to full size and working properly first using HCG , then come off the HCG and go for a robust PCT.

What you have suggested above is in MHO not nearly enough to get yourself sorted, although it's great news that you have seen a response.

Am sure your friend has done his best, but you have got to read Swifo's posts on PCT, you will be glad you did.

[Far from massive]

As Matt said an Endocrinologist ( or if your insurance requires it a PCP for a refferal to an Endo ) should be your first stop, you will definately need blood work results to see what is out of whack. Doing PCT after a cycle we can afford to make assumptions and follow a regimine based on those assumptions. In a case like this where you have been shut down 2 years it is vital to get as much information as possible on exactly what is going on before proceeding.

FFM

[layeazy]

HCG to stimulate your testes mate then some really aggressive pct Clomid nolva asap good luck

[psa]

Stop wasting money on those natural test boosters and living a miserable life. You've been shut down for 2 ****in years bro, get bloodwork done at either a private lab or through your doctor. What was your last cycle anyways?

[Swifto]

Get BW done first.

Total and free T, LH, FSH, estrogen, GnRH, prolactin, DHEA.

[marcus300]

what are your stats?
How many cycles have you done?

[2nd Cycle Blues]

I've done two cycles. Last one was Sustanon , Deca , Anavar , Winny

I will get bloodwork and post here. WIll the Torem affect my test results?

[dec11]

forget the trib, waste of money, zma is the only natural test support id take. you say you tried trt and it made things worse, find tht strange? also, where did you read you shouldnt choke the chicken during pct?!

[2nd Cycle Blues]

TEST RESULTS ARE IN.
Just so you know I'm on my 4th week of Torem taking 60 e/d. Not taking anything else other than natural supplements and sustain alpha. My libido still down and no decent erections.

I'm 30 years old. 5'9". 196lbs.

(test) (results) (units) (interval)

Testosterone , Serum 633 ng/dL 249-836
Testosterone,Free 18.29 ng/dL 5.00-21.00
% Free Testosterone 2.89 % 1.50-4.20
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) 431 ng/dL 31-701
LH,s 11.5 high mIU/mL 1.7-8.6
FSH, serum 6.9 mIU/mL 1.5-12.4
Prolactin 9.0 ng/mL 4.0-15.2
Estradiol 33.5 pg/mL 7.6-42.6

LIPID PANEL
Cholesterol, Total 189 mg/dL 100-199
Triglycerides 143 mg/dL 0-149
HDL Cholesterol 46 mg/dL >39
VLDL Cholesterol Cal 29 mg/dL 5-40
LDL Cholesterol Calc 114 High mg/dL 0-99

CBC WITH DIFFERENTIAL/PLATELET
WBC 5.9 x10E3/uL 4.0-10.5
RBC 5.65 High x10E6/uL 4.10-5.60
Hemoglobin 15.9 g/dL 12.5-17.0
Hematocrit 47.4 % 36.0-50.0
MCV 84 fL 80-98
MCH 28.1 pg 27.0-34.0
MCHC 33.5 g/dL 32.0-36.0
RDW 13.4 % 11.7-15.0
Platelets 244 x10E3/uL 140-415
Neutrophils 52 % 40-74
Lymphs 33 % 14-46
Monocytes 11 % 4-13
Eos 4 % 0-7
Basos 0 % 0-3
Neutrophils (Absolute) 3.1 x10E3/uL 1.8-7.8
Lymphs (Absolute) 1.9 x10E3/uL 0.7-4.5
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.6 x10E3/uL 0.1-1.0
Eos (Absolute) 0.3 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.4
Baso (Absolute) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.2
Immature Granulocytes 0 % 0-1
Immature Grans (Abs) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.1

COMP. METABOLIC PANEL
Glucose, Serum 93 mg/dL 65-99
BUN 20 mg/dL 6-20
Creatinine, Serum 1.05 mg/dL 0.76-1.27
eGFR >59 mL/min/1.73 >59
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 19 8-19
Sodium, Serum 140 mmol/L 135-145
Potassium, Serum 4.5 mmol/L 3.5-5.2
Chloride, Serum 101 mmol/L 97-108
Carbon Dioxide, Total 25 mmol/L 20-32
Calcium, Serum 9.0 mg/dL 8.7-10.2
Protein, Total, Serum 7.1 g/dL 6.0-8.5
Albumin, Serum 4.6 g/dL 3.5-5.5
Globulin, Total 2.5 g/dL 1.5-4.5
A/G Ratio 1.8 1.1-2.5
Bilirubin, Total 0.5 mg/dL 0.0-1.2
Alkaline Phosphatase, S 87 IU/L 25-150
AST (SGOT) 25 IU/L 0-40
ALT (SGPT) 33 IU/L 0-55

THATS IT!!!
Unfortunately I couldn't get the GnRH test.

Your help will be extremely appreciated. Thank You

[Rider]

I'm 30 years old. 5'9". 196lbs.

(test) (results) (units) (interval)

Testosterone , Serum 633 ng/dL 249-836
Testosterone,Free 18.29 ng/dL 5.00-21.00
% Free Testosterone 2.89 % 1.50-4.20
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) 431 ng/dL 31-701
LH,s 11.5 mIU/mL 1.7-8.6
FSH, serum 6.9 mIU/mL 1.5-12.4
Prolactin 9.0 ng/mL 4.0-15.2
Estradiol 33.5 pg/mL 7.6-42.6

where exactly is the "shutdown"?

[2nd Cycle Blues]

where exactly is the "shutdown"?

I'm no expert so I can't comment on that, I don't even know what the results mean. If you are saying that the results are good then it means that the TOREM is working. A year ago my testosterone was at 268.

So what's going in on with my sexual function? My libido still very low, 60% quality erections and my balls shrink and grow constantly without a full drop. The VIagra helps to get an erection but is not a full erection by any means and I can't maintain it for long.

Thank you

[dosXX]

It means that most of your hormones have improved significantly, however your estrogen might be a bit high and elevated E2 as well as elevated Prolactin is known to cause ED . Now if ED is still an issue I would give the Urologist another try but remember it takes time to see results and "brief TRT" is definitely not the way to go about it. You need to be patient with TRT to see results. Good luck bro!

[chi]

i am very confused here?

[Rider]

yep your estrogen and prolactin is a bit high but just be patient, complete a full pct on Toremifene Citrate along with other ancillaries and wait to see what happens after the cessation of PCT

[2nd Cycle Blues]

yep your estrogen and prolactin is a bit high but just be patient, complete a full pct on Toremifene Citrate along with other ancillaries and wait to see what happens after the cessation of PCT

What other ancillaries are you referring to? I have aromasin on hand just in case. These are other sups I'm taking:

-Sustain Alpha (for a week now)
-Liver Juice
-Macca
-TestoJack200
-Icariin
-Fenugreek
-Multivitamins
-B complex
-ZMA before bed
-Omega 3
-D vitamin
-E vitamin
-C vitamin for cortisol control 2g ed.

[Rider]

My bad, by saying ancillaries I was refering to Aromasin .
ZMA, Vit C, Red Macca and a good Icariin supplement (highly standardized) will certainly do no harm at all

[2nd Cycle Blues]

This is my last week, when should I do my next blood test?

[Swifto]

i am very confused here?

Haha... So am I a little. The results are good IMHO.

yep your estrogen and prolactin is a bit high but just be patient, complete a full pct on Toremifene Citrate along with other ancillaries and wait to see what happens after the cessation of PCT

I'd like you to finish the PCT of Tore for 5-6 weeks, then wait 4 weeks and get BW done again, same BW.

What other ancillaries are you referring to? I have aromasin on hand just in case. These are other sups I'm taking:

-Sustain Alpha (for a week now)
-Liver Juice
-Macca
-TestoJack200
-Icariin
-Fenugreek
-Multivitamins
-B complex
-ZMA before bed
-Omega 3
-D vitamin
-E vitamin
-C vitamin for cortisol control 2g ed.

I'd stop the Sustain Alpha.

Its an anti-androgen.

This is my last week, when should I do my next blood test?

4-5 weeks later, off almost everything, bar your micro nutrients.

[slimshady01]

why do people think his estrogen was high? he is in the normal range. I did bloods during my cycle and they came back high at 70 and people told me that it was fine and not to take to much AI as this is good for you and can hurt gains sex drive etc if to low..

[2nd Cycle Blues]

THanks Swifto. I am now in my 5th week of Torem, tapering off at 30 ed. My cycle has been 120/90/90/60/30. I will continue for a 6th week and get the blood work in a month like you suggested.

As far as palpable improvements I have more sexual thoughts and I've been getting morning wood for like 3 days in a row now; that's something I haven't seen in a while. However, the erections are still about 60% full and my balls IMO are not fully dropped and shrink a couple of times a day. So in general I could say that have a "decent" desire for sex, I get easily aroused but the erections are still 60% and my balls are not convincing yet.

I heard so many good things a bout the Sustain Alpha, but if its proven to be an anti androgen it has got to go...

Thanks to everyone, I will continue reporting on future developments.

[layeazy]

atleast there's some improvement mate

[2nd Cycle Blues]

atleast there's some improvement mate

Yes there is and I'm remaining positive. I just wonder sometimes if there should have been HCG somewhere in the mix; I've heard so much about with or without. But I will stick to the original plan and hope for the best.

There's only room for improvement.

[mcnuggs]

I am going thru something similiar (325 total testosterone ) because of ****ed pct. ive tried reseaching so much shit and tryed all these natural supps and remedys. i Tryed another nolva pct w/ dhea and pregnenolone but it was mediocre at best. i have yet to try TRT tho, can you elaborate as to how you felt worse on TRT? have you tryed horny goat weed? maybe it was just mental, but ,my libido was definately better on it.

good luck

[2nd Cycle Blues]

can you elaborate as to how you felt worse on TRT?

My doctor gave me test cyp. For personal reasons I only did it for a month and somehow I was feeling worst. A lot of people are happy with the their TRT, I'm IN NO WAY claiming that I was feeling bad because of the test cyp, it could have been anything but that's just how I felt.

[layeazy]

yeah a months not long enough though you should atleast do 10 or 12 weeks the stuff was just adjusting in your body in that time

[alpenguy]

Those numbers look good, however unless im missing something, where is your cortisol #s? Could explain alot

[KyleJumpjets]

hang in there bro!

[layeazy]

yeah any news....

[qab]

yo man i think you should use winstrol ... a couple of months ago my couch was talking about using some hydrochloride somthing i forgot the name..he said its suppose to eliminate all the steriods stuff from ur system .. i would ask what it is..

[KyleJumpjets]

Any word? I'm curious as to ur results bro

[lovbyts]

yo man i think you should use winstrol... a couple of months ago my couch was talking about using some hydrochloride somthing i forgot the name..he said its suppose to eliminate all the steriods stuff from ur system .. i would ask what it is..

Whoever this is, DONT listen to him. Obviously he knows nothing. Sounds like a troll and hopefully he wont be back with anymore bad advice. With a 1st post like that he deserved suspension if not ban for stupidity.

Glad to hear you are improving. Keep us posted on how you are feeling and what you think made the most difference.

Sorry to hear you have been dealing with it for so long, that would suck. It sounds like your E2 levels never got back to normal and the Aromasin and TOREM are doing it's job. Hang in there.