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  1. #1
    Turkish Juicer's Avatar
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    Bottom line: Proviron is of no use for anything!

    Here is a post cut strait from the keyboard of a leading doctor (Endocrinologist) that treats hypogonadal men, his name is Dr. Michael Scally:


    ''Dianabol (methandione, methandrostenolone , metandienone, and a host of other names) suppresses the HPTA. The use of dianabol in the hope that it will provide HPTA normalization is misguided. More details, later, can be provided, if requested.

    However, a brief note on proviron . What evidence is there that proviron lacks androgenic activity. The literature presents this by the absence of proviron to influence significantly infertility, erythropoiesis, lipids, and sex hormones. Except for the obsessive compulsive that needs to take a substance, thus replacing an AAS with adverse HPTA effects with one that does not, proviron is a worthless AAS, useful for nothing. Proviron will not support or provide any basis for the return of HPTA function.

    The quoted abstract from the study by Varma and Patel really does not give one any information. [Varma TR, Patel RH. The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men. Int J Gynaecol Obstet 1988;26:121-8.] The study is poor from the abstract alone. Please note that the statement, "Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated," refers unidentified group. The groups in the study include, "One hundred ten patients . . . had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients . . . had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone." Nowhere is there a group with elevated levels. Nonetheless, the cited effect is a "depressing effect" not stated as significant. Knowing the fluctuation in gonadotropin levels on testing even at a P<0.05 would not be meaningful. But it does go to the point that proviron has no adverse effect on the HPTA.

    Mesterolone is useless for infertility. A year after the Varma study, 1989, the World Health Organization published a study demonstrating, "[n]o significant changes semen quality during the course of the study, apart from an increase in sperm concentration 3 months after the start of treatment. The increase was greatest among the placebo treated group, but did not differ significantly between treatment groups." [Mesterolone and idiopathic male infertility: a double-blind study. World Health Organization Task Force on the Diagnosis and Treatment of Infertility. Int J Androl 1989;12:254-64.]

    In 1991, a study concludes, "Because similar semen improvement also occurred in the placebo controls, our findings cast doubt on the possible usefulness of high-dose Mesterolone treatment of idiopathic male infertility." [Gerris J, Comhaire F, Hellemans P, Peeters K, Schoonjans F. Placebo-controlled trial of high-dose Mesterolone treatment of idiopathic male infertility. Fertil Steril 1991;55:603-7.]

    These confirm an earlier study from 1983. [Wang C, Chan CW, Wong KK, Yeung KK. Comparison of the effectiveness of placebo, clomiphene citrate, mesterolone, pentoxifylline, and testosterone rebound therapy for the treatment of idiopathic oligospermia. Fertil Steril 1983;40:358-65.] Treatment with the mesterolone (100 mg/day) therapy did not result in a significant increase in the mean sperm concentration or pregnancy in the partners.

    Proviron is useless in promoting erythropoiesis (formation of red blood cell elements) and bone formation (a mixed effect of testosterone through the androgen receptor and estradiol receptor), both evidence of androgenic activity. Mesterolone (100 mg/d) is ineffective in raising hemoglobin and hematocrit levels significantly from baseline in individuals with hypogonadism. The study cites that Mesterolone did not increase serum testosterone (but also did not mention that there is a decrease). [Jockenhovel F, Vogel E, Reinhardt W, Reinwein D. Effects of various modes of androgen substitution therapy on erythropoiesis. Eur J Med Res 1997;2:293-8.]

    As recent as 2003, mesterolone (100 mg/d) for 6 months administered to hypogonadal males failed to significantly raise bone mineral density (BMD). Treatment with testosterone undecanoate (160 mg/d), testosterone enanthate 250 mg (every 21 days), or a single subcutaneous implantation of 1,200 mg crystalline testosterone did result in BMD increases. [Schubert M, Bullmann C, Minnemann T, Reiners C, Krone W, Jockenhovel F. Osteoporosis in male hypogonadism: responses to androgen substitution differ among men with primary and secondary hypogonadism. Horm Res 2003;60:21-8.]

    Erythropoiesis and bone formation are positive aspects of androgens useful under certain clinical conditions. AAS consistently have adverse effects on lipid profiles that are generally observed as a decrease in HDL (good cholesterol). In 1999, twenty years after the study cited by MaxRep [Nikkanen V. Plasma cholesterol, triglycerides, FSH and testosterone levels of normolipemic male patients with decreased fertility treated with mesterolone. Andrologia 1979;11:33-6.] proviron was found to adversely effect the lipid profile in hypogonadal men. The study by abstract analysis is hard to detail but an adverse effect of proviron is reported. Also, the study reports on serum testosterone levels with androgen treatments. Androgen substitution led to no significant increase of serum testosterone in the proviron group, subnormal testosterone in the testosterone undecanoate group, normal testosterone in the testosterone enanthate group, and high-normal testosterone in the crystalline testosterone group. The message is proviron did not affect the HPTA. [Jockenhovel F, Bullmann C, Schubert M, et al. Influence of various modes of androgen substitution on serum lipids and lipoproteins in hypogonadal men. Metabolism 1999;48:590-6.] The same author reports that proviron administration has no effect on serum FSH or testosterone. [Nikkanen V. The effects of mesterolone on the male accessory sex organs, on spermiogram, plasma testosterone and FSH. Andrologia 1978;10:299-306.]

    I have said too much already. A further review of proviron literature will not change the use of proviron as an AAS for either anabolic or androgenic effects. Bottom line: Proviron is of no use for anything.

    Thank you.''


    Dr. Michael Scally

  2. #2
    MACHINE5150's Avatar
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    I agree 100%.. ran 100mg Proviron ED with my last cycle and it was a waste of time, i still had to take an AI and there was no difference once i stopped taking it a few weeks in.. it is garbage.

  3. #3
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    There are many studies done on proviron and I guess you have to try it and see if its got any benefits for you or not, but Dr Scally is probably the no1 guy when it comes to stuff like this so you have to take in what he is saying and I do agree with more or less everything he said, it isn't going to build tissue we all know that and its is more or less useless but in many cases including myself it does have a purpose.

    Its a weak binder to the estrogen receptor and it can help with reducing estrogenic activity, ive noticed this myself in cycles were i didn't need an AI and its also good at hardening up the body and works well with certain steroids when cutting. Ive also used it in pct at small doses and i must say it did help with libido issues at the time and I was recovering. It also binds to SHBG which results in more free test so it does have a purpose but not in relation to building muscles tissue.

    One thing I have noticed with proviron is that with every study what comes out there is another what contradicts and say something the opposite, so with this in mind I would give it a go if you want any of the above benefits but as far as building or seeing any dramatic increases its not worth doing.

  4. #4
    Swifto's Avatar
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    I agree, Proviron is pretty worthless.

    It boosts labido, aggression but thats about it when "on". SHBG goes down on exogenous testosterone in a dose dependent manner, not up as most would have you believe. So SHBG is of little concern at all, not to mention our free T level on cycle is so high SHBG doesnt matter again.

    Its shit as an anti-estrogen. I managed to get gyno and acne on cycle using it.

  5. #5
    Turkish Juicer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcus300 View Post
    There are many studies done on proviron and I guess you have to try it and see if its got any benefits for you or not, but Dr Scally is probably the no1 guy when it comes to stuff like this so you have to take in what he is saying and I do agree with more or less everything he said, it isn't going to build tissue we all know that and its is more or less useless but in many cases including myself it does have a purpose.

    Its a weak binder to the estrogen receptor and it can help with reducing estrogenic activity, ive noticed this myself in cycles were i didn't need an AI and its also good at hardening up the body and works well with certain steroids when cutting. Ive also used it in pct at small doses and i must say it did help with libido issues at the time and I was recovering. It also binds to SHBG which results in more free test so it does have a purpose but not in relation to building muscles tissue.

    One thing I have noticed with proviron is that with every study what comes out there is another what contradicts and say something the opposite, so with this in mind I would give it a go if you want any of the above benefits but as far as building or seeing any dramatic increases its not worth doing.
    You should really read the article that I posted yesterday, titled ''Rationale for the Use of Aromasin with Tamoxifen During Post Cycle Therapy'' by Anthony Roberts. I am sure you will be more than happy to realize that Aromasin in PCT will do much more than Proviron in terms of resolving libido issues through the restoration of endogenous testosterone production.

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    marcus300's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish Juicer View Post
    You should really read the article that I posted yesterday, titled ''Rationale for the Use of Aromasin with Tamoxifen During Post Cycle Therapy'' by Anthony Roberts. I am sure you will be more than happy to realize that Aromasin in PCT will do much more than Proviron in terms of resolving libido issues through the restoration of endogenous testosterone production.
    please re-read what i wrote again, i never said it is better than anything else, ive used it in pct for libido issues and it helped i'm not saying it totally cured the issue but it did help when i used it along side an adequate PCT protocol.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish Juicer View Post
    You should really read the article that I posted yesterday, titled ''Rationale for the Use of Aromasin with Tamoxifen During Post Cycle Therapy'' by Anthony Roberts. I am sure you will be more than happy to realize that Aromasin in PCT will do much more than Proviron in terms of resolving libido issues through the restoration of endogenous testosterone production.
    Why are you posting articles written by Anthony Roberts in the first place?? There already here so don't need posting again and most are now out dated..
    Do not ask me for a source check.






  8. #8
    Turkish Juicer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcus300 View Post
    please re-read what i wrote again, i never said it is better than anything else, ive used it in pct for libido issues and it helped i'm not saying it totally cured the issue but it did help when i used it along side an adequate PCT protocol.
    I have completely understood what you wrote when I first read it and I thought I could come up with a suggestion of my own. It was just a suggestion after all,

  9. #9
    Swifto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish Juicer View Post
    I have completely understood what you wrote when I first read it and I thought I could come up with a suggestion of my own. It was just a suggestion after all,
    Why use an AI during PCT when endogenous testosterone is already very low (hypogondal), therefore estrogen is very low?

  10. #10
    Turkish Juicer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    Why use an AI during PCT when endogenous testosterone is already very low (hypogondal), therefore estrogen is very low?
    http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-Cycle-Therapy

  11. #11
    Swifto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish Juicer View Post
    If you think copy and pasting an article by that idiot is going to do anything, your sadly mistaken.

    But I will state your copy and paste skills are very good, although it ends there.

    A metabolite of Aromasin (Exemestane) may be inhibitive to the HPTA, so there is yet another reason why NOT to use an AI during PCT. When endogenous T rises (hoping it does) then we can introduce an AI for further serum T increase, but until then, its a bad idea for a fair few reasons.

  12. #12
    Turkish Juicer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    If you think copy and pasting an article by that idiot is going to do anything, your sadly mistaken.
    Hey man, I did not know you had issues with Anthony's intelligence and/or knowledge. Try not to reflect that anger on me.

    But I will state your copy and paste skills are very good, although it ends there.
    I advice you don't leap to conclusions about people that you don't know in person. Try to pump your breaks before you make judgments about others, especially when you are not informed about their educational backgrounds. You are no one to pass judgment about my skills. I find it completely pointless to even discuss this matter

    A metabolite of Aromasin (Exemestane) may be inhibitive to the HPTA, so there is yet another reason why NOT to use an AI during PCT. When endogenous T rises (hoping it does) then we can introduce an AI for further serum T increase, but until then, its a bad idea for a fair few reasons.
    Well, Anthony does not think alike and he made it very clear in that article as to why so, which is why I copied and pasted the link to the article in the first place.
    FYI, I have been intensively training over the years and trilingual person I am has allowed me to make extensive research about pretty much anything that relates to bodybuilding, not to mention I have received my MSc Nutrition and Food Science from a highly competitive state college in the U.S. back in 2006 and currently working on my Doctorate thesis. Lastly, I care too little about your reflections upon skills of others, and it ends there.
    Last edited by Turkish Juicer; 03-03-2011 at 03:47 PM. Reason: typo

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish Juicer View Post
    FYI, I have been intensively training over the years and trilingual person I am has allowed me to make extensive research about pretty much anything that relates to bodybuilding, not to mention I have received my MSc Nutrition and Food Science from a highly competitive state college in the U.S. back in 2006 and currently working on my Doctorate thesis. Lastly, I care too little about your reflections upon skills of others, and it ends there.
    We care little about you too and your copy and paste skills....

    If your going to post here please try to use real life experience and not other peoples articles...
    Do not ask me for a source check.






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    Pete75 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    Why use an AI during PCT when endogenous testosterone is already very low (hypogondal), therefore estrogen is very low?
    What about if you haven't used any AI on cycle? Would it be useful for lowering the estrogen which might cause problems after cycle?

  15. #15
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    regardeless fertility and hpt topics


    https://www.thieme-connect.com/DOI/D...s-2008-1070763


    Mesterolone, 150 mg daily by mouth, was given to 26 patients (10 men, 16 women) with renal anaemia on chronic haemodialysis (3 times for 5 hours). At the beginning of treatment the patients had been dialysed for at least 6 months under stable conditions: iron deficiency had been excluded or treated. Progressive improvement in the anaemia was observed during the treatment period. After 39 months the haemoglobin concentration had risen from 74 4 g/l to 95 5 g/l, haematocrit from 0.22 0.01 to 0.28 0.02, and the red-cell count from 2.44 0.12 1012/l to 3.09 0.2 1012/l. Side effects were rare; some patients developed increased appetite with a rise in body weight, while some women developed acne or hirsutism. There was no effect of mesterolone on liver function. The results indicate that mesterolone can favourably influence renal anaemia and that the side effects of this testosterone derivative are not such as to prohibit its use in women.


    sirs. androgens increases hematocrit, hemoglobin, red cell count.

    .
    Last edited by oswaldosalcedo; 01-30-2016 at 09:33 AM.

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