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  1. #1
    Blooddrunk is offline New Member
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    Clenbuterol while on PCT

    I just ordered my Clomi, Tamox, and Liquid Clen from AR-R . I have scanned the board looking for answers and I see so many opinions and viewpoints. Does Clenbuterol shut you down or keep you shut down if you are already shut down and is it ok to use with Tamox and Clomi. I am 29 years old and 5'10" 190 pounds now. BF% 11% and just finished a Sustanon 250 EQ cycle. Any suggestions on how to stack this PCT together? Thanks

  2. #2
    Renesis's Avatar
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    Clen promotes LBM retention as well as having a slight anabolic effect to it. So no it will not shut you down it will actually aid in keeping the muscle you just gained after your cycle. As for stacking I'll let someone with cycle experience answer that, as I am only experienced with Clen/Alb/Igf/MGF.

  3. #3
    ITS4THECATLOL is offline New Member
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    Clenbuterol isn't suppressive.

  4. #4
    sn0rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renesis View Post
    Clen promotes LBM retention as well as having a slight anabolic effect to it. So no it will not shut you down it will actually aid in keeping the muscle you just gained after your cycle. As for stacking I'll let someone with cycle experience answer that, as I am only experienced with Clen/Alb/Igf/MGF.
    It is said the dosages that showed the anabolic response were way to high for human research. With that in mind, I wouldn't use it with any anabolic consideration but simply as a weight loss aid.

    Best regards,
    -sn0rt

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    sn0rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renesis View Post
    Clen promotes LBM retention as well as having a slight anabolic effect to it. So no it will not shut you down it will actually aid in keeping the muscle you just gained after your cycle. As for stacking I'll let someone with cycle experience answer that, as I am only experienced with Clen/Alb/Igf/MGF.
    It is said the dosages that showed the anabolic response were way to high for human research. With that in mind, I wouldn't use it with any anabolic consideration but simply as a weight loss aid.

    Best regards,
    -sn0rt

  6. #6
    sn0rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blooddrunk View Post
    I just ordered my Clomi, Tamox, and Liquid Clen from AR-R. I have scanned the board looking for answers and I see so many opinions and viewpoints. Does Clenbuterol shut you down or keep you shut down if you are already shut down and is it ok to use with Tamox and Clomi. I am 29 years old and 5'10" 190 pounds now. BF% 11% and just finished a Sustanon 250 EQ cycle. Any suggestions on how to stack this PCT together? Thanks
    Clen is NOT a compound that causes shutdown. It CAN be used during PCT. Some suggest using it and some suggest against it during PCT. Most that suggest against using it during PCT argue that one should be focusing on bringing the body back to homeostasis before introducing any new compound.

    Best regards,
    -sn0rt

  7. #7
    Renesis's Avatar
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    If anything hit up albuterol much better IMO.

  8. #8
    Renesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sn0rt View Post
    It is said the dosages that showed the anabolic response were way to high for human research. With that in mind, I wouldn't use it with any anabolic consideration but simply as a weight loss aid.

    Best regards,
    -sn0rt
    Clen can and does increase LBM at the recommended human doses. I cycled clen and noticed a small weight and strength gain, while losing fat. He shouldn't expect to gain muscle with, but can expect it to help retain his muscle that he acquired while on cycle.

  9. #9
    sn0rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renesis View Post
    Clen can and does increase LBM at the recommended human doses. I cycled clen and noticed a small weight and strength gain, while losing fat. He shouldn't expect to gain muscle with, but can expect it to help retain his muscle that he acquired while on cycle.

    Would you be able to pull the actual studies you used to determine that so I can take a look at them?

    Thanks in advance.

    Best regards,
    -sn0rt
    Last edited by sn0rt; 04-27-2011 at 03:11 PM.

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    I would probably side with sn0rt but then, I might have missed a study or two. Clen has been used in the past to keep gains during PCT. Whether it actually does anything significant is up to debate.

    @OP, I would recommend that you do the clen after your natural Test levels are back and running. Clen has been shown to down-regulate testicular androgen receptors. I don't know what that really means in terms of PCT, but why take a risk?

  11. #11
    Renesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sn0rt View Post
    Would you be able to pull the actual studies you used to determine that so I can take a look at them?

    Thanks in advance.

    Best regards,
    -sn0rt
    It is right in the profile section of this forum.

  12. #12
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    I cannot see where using clen for anything other than aiding in fat loss would be prudent.
    People advocate its use in pct for the foloowing reasons:
    1- Supposedly lowers cortisol
    2- Supposedly anabolic

    My take/opinion on why these 2 points are essentially meaningless:
    1- I have NEVER seen a study on humans showing this cortisol decrease. In fact i have never seen any study where a safe HED was possible to induce this cortisol lowering effect.
    2- Anabolic - Peaople say well clen increases protein synthesis. Well of course it does - any substance that increases bmr increases protein synthesis. A brisk walk in the park increases protein sysnthesis. This increase is IMO insignificant. In fact the increase in bmr in the abscence or diminished level of testosterone and presence of elevated estrogen would imo probably be somewhat detrimental - possibloy even catabolic.

    JMO....

  13. #13
    Swifto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup View Post
    I cannot see where using clen for anything other than aiding in fat loss would be prudent.
    People advocate its use in pct for the foloowing reasons:
    1- Supposedly lowers cortisol
    2- Supposedly anabolic

    My take/opinion on why these 2 points are essentially meaningless:
    1- I have NEVER seen a study on humans showing this cortisol decrease. In fact i have never seen any study where a safe HED was possible to induce this cortisol lowering effect.
    2- Anabolic - Peaople say well clen increases protein synthesis. Well of course it does - any substance that increases bmr increases protein synthesis. A brisk walk in the park increases protein sysnthesis. This increase is IMO insignificant. In fact the increase in bmr in the abscence or diminished level of testosterone and presence of elevated estrogen would imo probably be somewhat detrimental - possibloy even catabolic.

    JMO....
    There is ample evidence beta-2-agonists are anabolic in humans. I cannot now, as I'm leaving to train, but I will post a fair few studies showing Clen, as well as other beta-2-agonists are anabolic in human skeletal muscle.

    I see your argument during PCT, but taking a compound that is proven "anabolic" in humans, that also does not cause any HPTA inhibition has its plus sides.

    If your taking Clen to lose weight or cut during PCT, then its a bad move because quite simply - your in PCT. A reduction in calories during this time, even if taking a compound like Clen or Ephedrine is muscular suicide IMHO. But the risk is certainly reduced.

    Can you explain why estrogen is increased during PCT (last sentence)?

  14. #14
    jimmyinkedup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    There is ample evidence beta-2-agonists are anabolic in humans. I cannot now, as I'm leaving to train, but I will post a fair few studies showing Clen , as well as other beta-2-agonists are anabolic in human skeletal muscle.

    I see your argument during PCT, but taking a compound that is proven "anabolic" in humans, that also does not cause any HPTA inhibition has its plus sides.

    If your taking Clen to lose weight or cut during PCT, then its a bad move because quite simply - your in PCT. A reduction in calories during this time, even if taking a compound like Clen or Ephedrine is muscular suicide IMHO. But the risk is certainly reduced.

    Can you explain why estrogen is increased during PCT (last sentence)?
    Yes we agree trying to cut during pct isnt prudent in any way. I dont dispute that it (clen)may in fact be considered "anabolic". My contention is that attributuion is related to the increased protein synthesis that anything that raises bmr would result in. To take my contention a step farther , an increase in bmr with an unfavorable hormone profile could in fact be detrimental. I understand the muscle sparing action of b2 agonists but perhaps there is an anabolic action above and beyond that of protein sysnthesis that i referred to ? If so I'd def like to see the studies or understand the MOA. They arent using cAMP levels as an effective marker for anabolism are they ?
    Oh and by "elevated estrogen" I was really referring to early on in pct when test levels are low and estrogen levels would be considered high . Obviously as pct progresses this circumstance would change.
    I was hoping you would weight in on this given your general/pct knowledge.
    Last edited by jimmyinkedup; 05-03-2011 at 03:26 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup View Post
    Yes we agree trying to cut during pct isnt prudent in any way. I dont dispute that it (clen )may in fact be considered "anabolic ". My contention is that attributuion is related to the increased protein synthesis that anything that raises bmr would result in. To take my contention a step farther , an increase in bmr with an unfavorable hormone profile could in fact be detrimental. I understand the muscle sparing action of b2 agonists but perhaps there is an anabolic action above and beyond that of protein sysnthesis that i referred to ? If so I'd def like to see the studies or understand the MOA. They arent using cAMP levels as an effective marker for anabolism are they ?
    Oh and by "elevated estrogen" I was really referring to early on in pct when test levels are low and estrogen levels would be considered high . Obviously as pct progresses this circumstance would change.
    I was hoping you would weight in on this given your general/pct knowledge.
    It doesnt just increase PS via a BMR increase, it also increase cAMP/PKA pathway and also PI3K/AKT/mTOR pathway.


    This paper was pretty explicit, titled "Clenbuterol increases lean muscle mass but not endurance in patients with chronic heart failure." They found that "Clenbuterol was well tolerated and led to a significant increase in both lean mass and the lean/fat ratio."

    In another human study, they slowly titrated the dose of clen by 20mcg/wk for three months. They found that "clenbuterol therapy increased skeletal muscle mass and strength."

    The same effect has been found with short-acting beta-2 agonists like albuterol:

    This study, titled "Oral albuterol dosing during the latter stages of a resistance exercise program" found that "A higher lean body mass trend also occurred with albuterol from weeks 10-13."

    This study give albuterol for 12 weeks to boys with muscular dystrophy. Outcome measurements included lean body mass and fat mass. They found that "Lean body mass was significantly higher for subjects following albuterol treatment compared to placebo treatment, while fat mass was significantly lower."

    Finally, this effect has also been found with the use of general (beta) adrenergic agonsits like ephedrine:

    This study in obese women found that after 8 weeks of EC administration, the EC group lost 9.9 lbs more body fat and 6.2 lbs less fat-free mass. "These findings provide evidence that promotion of fat loss and preservation of FFM during weight reduction may also be achieved pharmacologically in humans."

    This more extensive study stated "We conclude that the ephedrine/caffeine combination is effective in improving and maintaining weight loss, further it has lean body mass saving properties."



    No better summary.

  16. #16
    scotty51312's Avatar
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    Good stuff swifto, Durring my PCT i take ECA twice a day and 4 grams of vitamin c (2 pre work out, and two post work out) to help keep cortisol low. am/pm on non training days.

    For me PCT is the best time for pre workout supps, and ECA since I'm pretty lethargic without it for the first couple weeks

  17. #17
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    Ok swifto,

    I have read this b4 and actually have plently of Clen ATM...

    What kind of dose are we talking here for it to be of benefit durring PCT?

    I like to run my clen 10 day on 5 days off... i find that after 10 days it wears off even at a fairly high dose and after a 5 day break I can feel the clen working again even back down at 20mcg...

    for a 6 week pct would it be of benefit to just run it as follows..

    20mcg
    20
    40
    40
    60
    60
    80
    80
    100
    100
    break for 5 days and repeat...


    or are we talking a steady low dose of day 40mcg run for 10 days and then 5 days off...

    I will defo be using this as a part ofmynext pct but just unsure on how to run it

    cheers bro
    Don't be a 'Bro'..... Believe nothing....Question everything

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  18. #18
    jimmyinkedup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    It doesnt just increase PS via a BMR increase, it also increase cAMP/PKA pathway and also PI3K/AKT/mTOR pathway.


    This paper was pretty explicit, titled "Clenbuterol increases lean muscle mass but not endurance in patients with chronic heart failure." They found that "Clenbuterol was well tolerated and led to a significant increase in both lean mass and the lean/fat ratio."

    In another human study, they slowly titrated the dose of clen by 20mcg/wk for three months. They found that "clenbuterol therapy increased skeletal muscle mass and strength."

    The same effect has been found with short-acting beta-2 agonists like albuterol:

    This study, titled "Oral albuterol dosing during the latter stages of a resistance exercise program" found that "A higher lean body mass trend also occurred with albuterol from weeks 10-13."

    This study give albuterol for 12 weeks to boys with muscular dystrophy. Outcome measurements included lean body mass and fat mass. They found that "Lean body mass was significantly higher for subjects following albuterol treatment compared to placebo treatment, while fat mass was significantly lower."

    Finally, this effect has also been found with the use of general (beta) adrenergic agonsits like ephedrine:

    This study in obese women found that after 8 weeks of EC administration, the EC group lost 9.9 lbs more body fat and 6.2 lbs less fat-free mass. "These findings provide evidence that promotion of fat loss and preservation of FFM during weight reduction may also be achieved pharmacologically in humans."

    This more extensive study stated "We conclude that the ephedrine/caffeine combination is effective in improving and maintaining weight loss, further it has lean body mass saving properties."



    No better summary.
    Good reads. I was aware of the increase in cAMP clen causes - but that doesnt necessarily result in anabolic effect/activity. It seems like in several of the studies they say it takes a long time for these anabolic effects to occur. Would you still consider it prudent in PCT ?
    I have never dome it based on the logic i posted initally , but im always open to trying it based on respected input.

  19. #19
    Swifto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baseline_9 View Post
    Ok swifto,

    I have read this b4 and actually have plently of Clen ATM...

    What kind of dose are we talking here for it to be of benefit durring PCT?

    I like to run my clen 10 day on 5 days off... i find that after 10 days it wears off even at a fairly high dose and after a 5 day break I can feel the clen working again even back down at 20mcg...

    for a 6 week pct would it be of benefit to just run it as follows..

    20mcg
    20
    40
    40
    60
    60
    80
    80
    100
    100
    break for 5 days and repeat...


    or are we talking a steady low dose of day 40mcg run for 10 days and then 5 days off...

    I will defo be using this as a part ofmynext pct but just unsure on how to run it

    cheers bro
    If you wish to avoid desensitisation, your going to have tirate it much less than that. 10mcg/ED is what I'd do. Ketofin before bed 1-2mg.

    It is possible to tirate it so slowly that you avoid desensitisation, but were talking a long time, slow tiration and large final doses.

    PCT lasts 6 weeks.

  20. #20
    Swifto's Avatar
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    Go up 10mcg/ED for the until you hit around 60-70mcg, then 20mcg/ED until you find your dose.

    1-2mg Keto 2x per day.

    Done.

  21. #21
    Swifto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup View Post
    Yes we agree trying to cut during pct isnt prudent in any way. I dont dispute that it (clen )may in fact be considered "anabolic ". My contention is that attributuion is related to the increased protein synthesis that anything that raises bmr would result in. To take my contention a step farther , an increase in bmr with an unfavorable hormone profile could in fact be detrimental. I understand the muscle sparing action of b2 agonists but perhaps there is an anabolic action above and beyond that of protein sysnthesis that i referred to ? If so I'd def like to see the studies or understand the MOA. They arent using cAMP levels as an effective marker for anabolism are they ?
    Oh and by "elevated estrogen" I was really referring to early on in pct when test levels are low and estrogen levels would be considered high . Obviously as pct progresses this circumstance would change.
    I was hoping you would weight in on this given your general/pct knowledge.
    Here you are mate.

    I knew I had it somewhere...

    http://jap.physiology.org/content/102/2/740.full

  22. #22
    baseline_9's Avatar
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    swifto... your pc must just be a database of links to studys... fair play...

    Everytime sum1 asks a question swifto can generally pull some study out of his hat...

    love it
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  23. #23
    Swifto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baseline_9 View Post
    swifto... your pc must just be a database of links to studys... fair play...

    Everytime sum1 asks a question swifto can generally pull some study out of his hat...

    love it
    I have a lot on an old PC and their still there. Got some on this laptop, but to be honest, I remember a lot of them, where to look for them.

    I thought about posting a lot of links (full papers and abstracts) in a thread once with summary's and the main points to draw from each, but then I'd be making it too easy!

  24. #24
    baseline_9's Avatar
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    Feel free to PM me everything u have....

    You geek!

    Lol only kidding... I think it's great to have people like you around m8, to help educate people like me...
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