Nolvadex vs. Clomid for PCT

[Swifto]

Tracked down the maximum dosage stuff.

First, we already looked at the 25 mg, long term dose of Clomid study. So we know that works and does not lead to desensitization.

Here is the study that tested 50 mg of Clomid ED:
Recovery of persistent hypogonadism by clomiphene in males with prolactinomas under dopamine agonist treatment, Rogerio Silicani Ribeiro and Julio Abucham, European Journal of Endocrinology, Vol 161, Issue 1, 163-169

Results: Ten patients (71%), five hyperprolactinemic and two normoprolactinemic, responded to clomiphene (testosterone >300 ng/dl). Testosterone levels increased from 201±22 to 457±37 ng/dl, 436±52, and 440±47 ng/dl at 4, 8, and 12 weeks respectively (0.001<P<0.01). Estradiol increased significantly and peaked at 12 weeks. LH increased from 1.7±0.4 to 6.2±2.0 IU/l, 4.5±0.7, and 4.6±0.7 IU/l at 4, 8, and 12 weeks respectively (0.001<P<0.05). FSH levels increased in a similar fashion. Prolactin levels remained unchanged. Erectile function improved (P<0.05) and sperm motility increased (P<0.05) in all six patients with asthenospermia before clomiphene.
End of Study Text

Even though the number of subjects is low, the results are significant and conclusive. As you can see, the Testosterone response peaked at week 4 and then decreased a little but basically was the same level from week 4-12. But of special interest is that LH increased from 1.7 to 6.2 at week 4, but decreased to ~4.5 thereafter. Too bad there wasn't a shorter test interval; however, this shows that at 4 weeks or earlier desensitization occured for LH response even though administration of clomid was constant. Given the dramatic increase in LH between start and week 4, and the dramatic decrease from week 4 to 8, it is highly probable that the desensitization occured close to 4 weeks, and not 10 days.

We take the 50 mg study and compare to the long term 25 mg study to conclude that 25 mg is maximum dosage. However, if you are doing 4 weeks or less 50 mg would be fine.

So the little voice in the back of my head that was telling me the maximum dose may be 50 mg instead of 25 is correct; We should consider 50 mg the maximum does unless we are going to do super shot cycles of Clomid. We already know from above that 150 mg desensitized LH in less than 10 days. I found a study showing the same for 100 mg based on 7 days usage.

Given all of this, 50 mg ED for 4 weeks or less is maximum dosage when used for stimulating LH production in a PCT scenario. If going longer than 4 week, 25 mg ED would be maximum dosage.

Here's one for you then...


After looking into it, I'm amazed at what long term studies of clomiphene administration have shown. Isolated clomid administration is capable of much more than I ever imagined. Take for instance this study in which five healthy young adult men aged 26 to 33 were given 50 mg of clomiphene citrate twice a day for 8 weeks. The whole study focused on how the older men were relatively non-responsive compared to the younger men, yet the data on the young healthy men is incredible in and of itself. I'm surprised the researchers didn't even raise an eyebrow at this.

By week 8 of CC administration, the total testosterone level (Fig 2A) achieved in the young adult group was 48.2± 1.4 nmol/L (a 268% increase above baseline level). The young adult men reached a maximal nSHBG-T level (free testosterone level) (Fig 2B) of 20.6 ± 3.2 nmol/L (a 1,410% increase) after 8 weeks of CC administration. The increase in free testosterone is huge. And the beauty of it is that this is all endogenous production, due to increases in LH and FSH, which were also measured and graphed in the full study.

Full study: http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/reprint/12/4/258


http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...d#.To8uaLLX-So

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Here's one for you then...


After looking into it, I'm amazed at what long term studies of clomiphene administration have shown. Isolated clomid administration is capable of much more than I ever imagined. Take for instance this study in which five healthy young adult men aged 26 to 33 were given 50 mg of clomiphene citrate twice a day for 8 weeks. The whole study focused on how the older men were relatively non-responsive compared to the younger men, yet the data on the young healthy men is incredible in and of itself. I'm surprised the researchers didn't even raise an eyebrow at this.

By week 8 of CC administration, the total testosterone level (Fig 2A) achieved in the young adult group was 48.2± 1.4 nmol/L (a 268% increase above baseline level). The young adult men reached a maximal nSHBG-T level (free testosterone level) (Fig 2B) of 20.6 ± 3.2 nmol/L (a 1,410% increase) after 8 weeks of CC administration. The increase in free testosterone is huge. And the beauty of it is that this is all endogenous production, due to increases in LH and FSH, which were also measured and graphed in the full study.

Full study: http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/reprint/12/4/258


http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...d#.To8uaLLX-So

And this makes sense, because often older men's leydig cells do not respond to LH the same as when they were younger. This is a typical cause for low testosterone levels in older men. Also, if LH is naturally on the higher end of range, Clomid therapy is of little or no benefit.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Here's one for you then...


After looking into it, I'm amazed at what long term studies of clomiphene administration have shown. Isolated clomid administration is capable of much more than I ever imagined. Take for instance this study in which five healthy young adult men aged 26 to 33 were given 50 mg of clomiphene citrate twice a day for 8 weeks. The whole study focused on how the older men were relatively non-responsive compared to the younger men, yet the data on the young healthy men is incredible in and of itself. I'm surprised the researchers didn't even raise an eyebrow at this.

By week 8 of CC administration, the total testosterone level (Fig 2A) achieved in the young adult group was 48.2± 1.4 nmol/L (a 268% increase above baseline level). The young adult men reached a maximal nSHBG-T level (free testosterone level) (Fig 2B) of 20.6 ± 3.2 nmol/L (a 1,410% increase) after 8 weeks of CC administration. The increase in free testosterone is huge. And the beauty of it is that this is all endogenous production, due to increases in LH and FSH, which were also measured and graphed in the full study.

Full study: http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/reprint/12/4/258


http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...d#.To8uaLLX-So

And this makes sense because older men's leydig cells often fail to respond to LH stimulation the same as when they were young. Also, if LH base levels are in the part of the range, then Clomid therapy has little if anything to offer for raising testosterone levels.

[Swifto]

And this makes sense, because often older men's leydig cells do not respond to LH the same as when they were younger. This is a typical cause for low testosterone levels in older men. Also, if LH is naturally on the higher end of range, Clomid therapy is of little or no benefit.

Well this sure as f*ck blows a hole in your "only use Clomid for 4 weeks because of LH desensitisation" doesnt it? Dont get too caught up in LH anyway, serum T is what we want eventually.

I realise you cannot compare hypogondal males with eugondal though.

Still.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Well this sure as f*ck blows a hole in your "only use Clomid for 4 weeks because of LH desensitisation" doesnt it? Dont get too caught up in LH anyway, serum T is what we want eventually.

I realise you cannot compare hypogondal males with eugondal though.

Still.

LH tells the leydig cells to produce testosterone. So w/o LH, one has very low testosterone. For PCT, we have to watch LH if we want a permanent recovery. The shutdown LH production is what has to be recovered! Once LH is recovered testosterone is recovered. Sure we want testosterone higher, but we have to do that via LH. Any compound that raises leydig cells production of testosterone does it via LH stimulation (Clomid by blocking ER in the pitutitary and GnRH, Novla by blocking ER in the pituitary) or by mimicing LH (HCG). So hypogondal males will not benefit from any treatment except TRT since their leydig cells no longer respond to LH very well.

The other thing about Clomid and Triptolorin is they are a GnRH, so after a person stops using them the pitutitary keeps on producing LH if the pitutitary is healthy. We only need a few weeks of Clomid for PCT. Then we move onto something else. Non-PCT use of Clomid to reverse low testosterone, a lower dose is used for a longer time. I honestly don't know if that longer period at a lower is really beneficial or not. But it is a long period that is prescribed by docs.

[Swifto]

LH tells the leydig cells to produce testosterone. So w/o LH, one has very low testosterone. For PCT, we have to watch LH if we want a permanent recovery. The shutdown LH production is what has to be recovered! Once LH is recovered testosterone is recovered. Sure we want testosterone higher, but we have to do that via LH. Any compound that raises leydig cells production of testosterone does it via LH stimulation (Clomid by blocking ER in the pitutitary and GnRH, Novla by blocking ER in the pituitary) or by mimicing LH (HCG). So hypogondal males will not benefit from any treatment except TRT since their leydig cells no longer respond to LH very well.

The other thing about Clomid and Triptolorin is they are a GnRH, so after a person stops using them the pitutitary keeps on producing LH if the pitutitary is healthy. We only need a few weeks of Clomid for PCT. Then we move onto something else. Non-PCT use of Clomid to reverse low testosterone, a lower dose is used for a longer time. I honestly don't know if that longer period at a lower is really beneficial or not. But it is a long period that is prescribed by docs.

Are you kidding me?

Go through my posts mate as I have more than a basic understanding on hypogonadism in general and post androgen administration hypogonadism. I know what f*cking LH is.

The study about is 100mg/ED for 12 weeks, the 142% figure (the abstract is at the bottom of my sticky) is done for 8 weeks. All show healthy increased testosterone levels from baseline.

My suggestion for PCT, if I advise Clomid, is 25mg/ED for 6 weeks, 50mg/ED week 1. Thats worked for me and countless others who have followed it.

I actually prefer Tamox/Tore PCT, personally.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Are you kidding me?

Go through my posts mate as I have more than a basic understanding on hypogonadism in general and post androgen administration hypogonadism. I know what f*cking LH is.

The study about is 100mg/ED for 12 weeks, the 142% figure (the abstract is at the bottom of my sticky) is done for 8 weeks. All show healthy increased testosterone levels from baseline.

My suggestion for PCT, if I advise Clomid, is 25mg/ED for 6 weeks, 50mg/ED week 1. Thats worked for me and countless others who have followed it.

I actually prefer Tamox/Tore PCT, personally.

I have seen lots of your posts and know what you understand. My comments were for clarification and benefit of others who read this and may come to the wrong conclusion that LH is irrelevant, based on your comment, "Dont get too caught up in LH anyway, serum T is what we want eventually."

Also, your study you say blows a hole in the 4 week max clomid usage is actually supported. If you want to split hairs, sure. For older males it turned out to be exactly 4 weeks. For younger males it was 6 weeks. So if you want to push to 6 weeks this study would support it if you are under 33.

[Swifto]

I have seen lots of your posts and know what you understand. My comments were for clarification and benefit of others who read this and may come to the wrong conclusion that LH is irrelevant, based on your comment, "Dont get too caught up in LH anyway, serum T is what we want eventually."

Also, your study you say blows a hole in the 4 week max clomid usage is actually supported. If you want to split hairs, sure. For older males it turned out to be exactly 4 weeks. For younger males it was 6 weeks. So if you want to push to 6 weeks this study would support it if you are under 33.

I'm not splitting hairs, I guess I'm being more particular.

Your contribution to this thread has been excellent and I urge you to stick around. Good stuff.

I always like it when people formulate opinions and protocol's based on clinical data, its what I try to do.

[WhiteTiger]

So, is there a specific blood test to request end of cycle prior to pct, during pct or after? I would like to ensure my levels are optimal. The only blood tests ive had is prior cycle and mid cycle. I guess what im asking is what should i ask for and when.

My biggest concern is not ruining my chances of having kids. Any info on that?

[jkn399]

great read.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

So, is there a specific blood test to request end of cycle prior to pct, during pct or after? I would like to ensure my levels are optimal. The only blood tests ive had is prior cycle and mid cycle. I guess what im asking is what should i ask for and when.

My biggest concern is not ruining my chances of having kids. Any info on that?

You have to remember that the goal of PCT is to get your system back to where it was pre-cycle. To determine that goal, you have to do a blood test 60 days post PCT, after all the Clomid, Nolva, DAA, or whatever you use is completely out of your system and your hormone levels have stabalized. So your final post PCT results would be compared to the prior cycle results. Make sure you are at least back to baseline.

Consider if you get back only to 80% of baseline. Next cycle you have a lower baseline and once again you get back to only 80% of that. After several cycles you have clinically low T levels when you are not on cycle. Not a good result.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

I'm not splitting hairs, I guess I'm being more particular.

Actually, I now have to backtrack on some of my comments and clarify. My original point is accurate, but I allowed myself to lose focus on the main point. My whole point about Clomid being better for PCT was due to it's GnRH properties. Unfortunately, the GnRH response diminishes at higher doses over time. So please bear with me so I can recap and summarize, then we will both see how the different study results are relevant in as far as they study went and what it was investigating. Swifto is focused on PCT raising testosterone as a whole, while I am more focused on one aspect of PCT which is restoring HPTA via GnRH. I consider the GnRH response key to kicking off PCT for longterm success. It is the GnRH response that makes triptorelin so great for PCT, and so risky when overused.

In the study Clomid , Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation, By William Llewellyn that Swifto posted, it measured GnRH response using 150 mg of Clomid. It claimed that the response diminished after 7 days. My response was, of course it diminished after 7 days because the dose was too high.

However, in other studies we see that LH blood levels increase well beyond 7 days at high doses. This is because Clomid also acts as Nolva, both a SERM, in blocking estrogen receptors in the pituitary. So the pitutitary has no E2 binding at its receptors and therefore starts pumping out more LH. So as a SERM, Clomid will increase LH levels long after it has desensitized the GnRH response in the pituitary. But from what we know of a GnRH (again think about triptorelin which is the ultimate example), a little is great but once you desenstize the GnRH response bad things happen.

So strickly looking at the GnRH response produced by Clomid, we need to do a shorter period at lower doses. Doing higher for longer periods still allows Clomid to work as a SERM and raise LH and testosterone, but it is no longer working as a GnRH and worse, it has now desensitized the GnRH response.

For measuring the success of Clomid as a GnRH, we have to ignore any study that simply measures LH and testosterone levels. Those results have the SERM qualities of Clomid mixed in and do not measure the GnRH response. The SERM qualities of Clomid will overshadow the GnRH qualities unless the study is designed to measure the latter. Novla is far better choice as a SERM, but it lacks the GnRH response.

Where does this leave us as far as my line of thought goes?

Use Clomid in the beginning of PCT for 3 weeks at 50 mg every day. Switch to Nolva after that. Maybe overlap the two for a week doing Clomid 50 mg EOD for the 4th week while blood levels of Nolva increase. Do not continue to use Clomid as a pure SERM beyond the intial period since Nolva does attach to more receptors and has less sides. As a SERM, Nolva is definately preferred. But for GnRH response which will benefit PCT longterm, we want to use Clomid.

I have to acknowledge, the 3 weeks and 50 mg values are something that lacks firm evidence in the PCT world. But studies do suggest they are good values to start with. Maybe 2 weeks or 4 weeks is good. Maybe 25 mg or 100 mg is a better dose. I don't know. But we do know for a fact that 150 mg over 7 days is too much. So we want to work lower than that, and possibly much lower.

If you don't like the sides of Clomid try adding in 150 mg of glutathione IM EOD. This does wonders for me. Some have argued this is because glutathione will enable the liver to pull the Clomid out of the body faster, reducing sides. I cannot agree with this since the clomid was doing it's job and increasing leydig cell size, despite the fact that I did 250 IU of HCG while doing Test Cyp, and for two weeks after the last Test shot I did 500 IUs EOD. I started Clomid two weeks after the last Test Cyp shot. I suspect that the small dopamine response from glutathione may be the reason sides are reduced. But aside from how I feel better, why I feel better is all speculation on my part.

[Thesoviet666]

Hmmmm, lots of well written information, however Tamoxifen taken on its own for a month does very little for my balls. Add in Clomid and my balls grow huge within 10 or 12 days.

So my experience differs with the authours, you might say that ball size has nothing to do with recovery, my feeling is that it is very important.

FWIW my PCT is :-

Week 1, 50mg Clomid + 40mg Tamoxifen
Week 2 to 5, 25mg Clomid + 20mg Tamoxifen

For my last PCT, I added in the following compounds as suggested by Swifto.

Tribulus (Sopharma) 1g/ED
Ashwagandha RE 2g/ED9 weeks

Try clomid with a mild ai such as formadrol and daa all together, works great

[anahny]

So from my understanding Nolva works better than clomid and faster without the sides of clomid. And the only other thing clomid does is speed up testicle growth. So why not run Nolva 40/20/20/20 while taking a low dose clomid say 35mg every other day or so. Would that work?