Read this about clomid and nolva

[razorback74]

I saw this on another forum, i thought i would pass it along.

clomid and nolva death in a bottle. Worst drugs ever made. Will not help recovery

What are your thoughts?

[srt4wad]

Well my thought is crap, I just bought some and should be here next week. This will be my first cycle and thought I was doing good and take advice and getting my PCT setup and ready to go and then this.

So, my question is to everyone that reads this and has used both how did affect you?

I bought both and dex and looking at getting HCG hopeing to do all I can to get the most out of my 10 week cycle and limit sides.

Good read though thanks bro.

[Lemonada8]

Its a scare tatic and pretty dumb IMO. he sources he points out alot of them are for women with breast cancer. Nothing to do with modulation in males and testosterone production.

ALso, the prostate is equivelent to the uterus between the sexes, and on the prostates there are 2 types of estrogen rceptors (a & b) which both have oppsite effects of each other.

Notice how there isnt a bibilography at the bottom that shows where he got his informaiton? thats a big sign that most of it is assumptions after reading a few articles but only at skin deep. I hightly doubt that the author knows the physiology behind the mechanisms of the drugs and how the actions differ between men and women. Women having a higher estrogen level leads to higher genome modification, hence breast cancer MUCH more common in women than in men. So in men, the high estrogen levels that are risen temporarily during a cycle are yes carcinogenic because the elevated estrogen can induce some genome structure chagnes (normally found in women) in men, and some cases this can cause cancer. But carcinogenic means it has genome changing properties, not necesssarily that it will turn into cancer, but the chances are higher. So is UV rays are carcinogenic, Air pollutents are carcinogenic, plastic bottles thathave sat outin the sun unopened than drank are carcinogenic. Its the fear of cancer that people are gettin worked up about, adn when there are carcinogenic things in atmosphere that do the samething? THen its a personal choice. Our bodies are very good at finding incorrect DNA code in the genome and there are mechanisms to repair that. Now it might not work in all cases and yes perhaps cancer may begin, but that takes alot of things to fail (in the body as protective manners) for that to happen.

It didnt even look at the hypothalamic nor pituitary effects of those drugs on the body (which are the same essentially) and what they do at those sites, where the body controlls homeostatis.

the author does do a good job of not making direct claims, but uses words like " In this regard... " and other non direct claims that make it seem much worse that it really is.

the Clomid/nolva combo is the best PCT out there IMO, inclueing the use of the HCG during the cycle at 250iu's (typically is enough.. monitor your testes before and during and after the cycle.. not just with ur hand but an actual measurement device to see what is going on. 250ius is a safe bed, but i bet some could get away with less... Some times that may be neded to bump up if there is no change from 'on cycle ball shrinkage' and " using HCG ball shrinkage' but the key factor is to keep the Intratesticular testoterone high in those sells, adn not let it get depleated adn sucked out due to high levels in the blood. Thats the main reason for the shrinkage of the testes is the loss of ITT. Then when LH is too low ( aka HCG) , the FSH still further stimulate the leydig cells to change into sertoli cells which dont produce the sperm, they are more of a supportive cells. And when on a cycle FSH doesnt get shut down nearly asmuch becasue it has a 2nd method of negative feed back with inhibitin B.

also here is a direct quote

Pierre Blais, well known as a drug researcher who was ejected from Canada's health protection bureaucracy when he spoke out about silicone breast implants, describes the story of tamoxifen as "the story of modern drug design which produces garbage drugs". He says, "Good drug design ceased, unfortunately, in the 1930s." Tamoxifen, Blais asserts, "...is a garbage drug that made it to the top of the scrap heap. It is a DES in the making.

he is using out of date information on the topic and there have been much more research done on the topic of male fertility and the usage of tamox and clomid.
basically, cuz eventualy the final goal is to have functional sperm and have your hormone levels stablilze at alevel that spermatogensis can be properly done and still provide eough hormone for the body to use.

Good find... but I call BS on most of it, and alot of scare tatics for those who dont konw the subject.

[Blitz88]

In regards that high estrogen being carcinogenic. If you are taking a-dex on cycle does this lower the chance for cancer? Also, if you do proper PCT Clomid/Nolva does this also lower the chance of cancer? This may be stupid questions but you sound like you know what your talking about and I am just curious.

[Lemonada8]

Estrogen in males is carcinogenic because it induces genome changes which changes the expression of gene production. It plays a part in differentiation of sexes. Males dont have nearly the same amount of changes that women have (partly the reason that breast cancer is much higher in women, and other estrogen heavy organs)

Swifto wrote a great article on why to take a AI on cycle, discussing that very question. Short terms, there really isnt any true research backing it up b/c its illegeal :P.

And doing a proper PCT ensures a proper recovery by modulating the feedback mechanisms of estrogen. when you are in PCT, your estrogen isnt that high b/c your test isnt as high. By modulating the receptors of estrogen in the feedback system, you increase your natural production (which was shut down during the cycle)

[Blitz88]

Very interesting information. Thanks for the reply. I enjoy learning about the subject more and more.

[Stosh_112]

Nice avitar Blitz, Just had to add!