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  1. #1
    dvd
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    The use of Kisspeptin-10 as a PCT adjunct agent

    Will keep a log. Unfortunately my cycle was cut short due to a herniated disc so weight gained will be a moot point. Had expected the cycle to last longer but several things went wrong, including that I could not get a hold of HCG until what I thought was going to be the end of the cycle. So this will simply be a before after snapshot of lh,fsh and total test levels. It will also be anecdotal than an actual experiment since n = 1.
    Subject: Mid 40's biotech worker with maritual problems.
    Levels before AAS use: Lh = 4.4, FSH = 5.8, Total Testosterone = 790
    PCT: Clomid 50mg ED for 2 weeks followed by 25mg for two weeks
    Tamoxifen 20mg ED for 2 weeks followed by 10mg for two weeks
    Forskolin 100mg taken in conjuction with Kisspeptin-10
    Kisspeptin-10 30mcg EOD for 16 days, dosed at about .38mcg/kg
    PCT start date:1/24/13.

    Will allow a one or two week washout period before testing LH, FSH and Total test. Dosage is not 100% due to whatever is lost during reconstitution so it could be closer to .32-.35 depending.
    I am also starting 40mcg IGF-1 lr3 ED to help with sciatic nerve damage/pain.
    Cycle was 437mg tren /175mg test on week 10 of 12 with 8 weeks dbol at 30mg. No HCG was used on this cycle but will be used for the next one. Right now I just want to see how effective kisspeptin is for useage during PCT. Will post the lab results in about 5-6 weeks.

  2. #2
    dvd
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    Don't know if it's normal for day 2 but my libedo is back 100%. It would be 5 days since my last shot of test but can get fully aroused simply by looking at clothed pictures of women in spite of my leg still feeling like it's on fire. Using .3mg prami to help get at least 5 hours of sleep and for the growth hormone effect. Also I feel it may be safer than something like Carbamazepine.

  3. #3
    dvd
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    Second shot today of Kiss-10. Still using lr3 but progress seems slow. Managed to do 40 minutes on an elliplical that has arm movements as well.
    The libedo is really hard to judge without a suitable partner. The forskolin is for declining cAMP levels in aging men and declining lh sensitivity in Leydig cells with age. It would probably not be needed in men below the age of 30 although I don't know how repeated AAS cycles affect leydig cells.

  4. #4
    Lemonada8's Avatar
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    Interesting thread.. i wanna follow so plz keep updating!!

    If u can, show blood work also

  5. #5
    dvd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonada8 View Post
    Interesting thread.. i wanna follow so plz keep updating!!

    If u can, show blood work also
    Levels before AAS use: Lh = 4.4, FSH = 5.8, Total Testosterone = 790

    Those were the starting levels with a 4 week washout period with no clomid or letro. Used both before to push my natural T levels above the 1000 mark but did not feel any real benefit. If anything just 2.5mg letro/week would have been enough unless I was trying to have a child. Did not use free T since there are too many other variables effecting it including SHBG levels etc. Total test is also what is used in most studies.

    It's also not an ideal study since I'm using both Tamoxifen and Clomid but that's why I listed it as an adjunct agent. I feel what it can do is create a fail proof PCT if used with other products. I will post the results either way though since it could also produce a disastrous PCT. Someone had to test it first for this specific use so here I am.

    If it does work my next cycle will include HGC E5D at 500iu so I may only include 5-7 shots of Kiss-10 at around the .3-.4mcg/kg range E3D.
    Last edited by dvd; 01-28-2013 at 12:43 AM.

  6. #6
    dvd
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    Shot of both IGF-1 lr3 and Kiss-10 this morning. Semen color has returned to white although that's a poor measurement of sperm quality. Should have had a semen analysis test ran pre cycle but didn't. So far not impressed with lr3 on sciatic nerve pain/damage.

  7. #7
    dvd
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    Fourth shot today. Also lr3 which I am not impressed with at all. May only limit the kiss10 to 7 shots as I am starting to get facial acne. Mood wise I haven't changed except for the fact I'm watching my gains go away since I can't even lift weights yet. Starting 95% Curcumin 3-4 grams plus 10mg Bioperine per 500mg Curcumin pill. Starting to finally get some relief on the sciatic pain. Can say I will use an extra day for just developing a better grip strength.


    I can say for those think of using kiss10 to use precautions. First kisspeptin's sequence varies by species so in rats it is: H - Tyr - Asn - Trp - Asn - Ser - Phe - Gly - Leu - Arg - Tyr - NH2
    In humans it is: H - Tyr - Asn - Trp - Asn - Ser - Phe - Gly - Leu - Arg - Phe - NH2
    Note the Tyrosine Phenylalanine substitution before the amine group. DO NOT use non-human kisspeptin-10. Ever. If your supplier can't tell the difference or isn't listing out the sequence then don't get it.
    The two studies above also point out the importance of not overdosing kisspeptin-10. Even at 1mcg/kg there is a reduced efficiency and at 3mcg there is already a steep decrease in response. The most efficient dosage seems to be .3-.4mcg/kg. The rat study shows that using too much can cause serious damage. The rats were given very large doses however. Even a 5nmol dose is equal to 21.6mcg/kg considering kiss10 has a molecular weight of 1.3 kiloDaltons and each rat weighed 300g on average. Still if someone is willing to use 150mg dbol using too much kiss10 becomes a distinct possibility.

  8. #8
    dvd
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    Since I don't have a high enough post count yet just Google "Kisspeptin-10 is a potent stimulator of LH and increases pulse frequency in men." and "Kisspeptin-54 at high doses acutely induces testicular degeneration in adult male rats via central mechanisms" for the two studies. Either way do not exceed .5mcg/kg.

  9. #9
    dvd
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    Fifth shot today. Threw out the IGF-1 lr3 as it wasn't helping the sciatica at all. Pain is now limited to my knee. Will take a total of seven shots since I was on week 10 on a tren cycle without HCG . On HCG I doubt more than 5 shots would be needed.

    Reconstitution was 500mcg Kisspeptin 10 with 1ml Bacteriostatic 0.9% Sodium Chloride pinned with .3ml insulin needles.

    Mentally no real crash. Just looking forward to being able to lift again.

  10. #10
    Lemonada8's Avatar
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    IGF wont help siatica at all, thats nerve issues, not muscle damage issues.. Whats the siatic nerve issue you are having? *Although thats a whole other issue*

    Yea i already have those whole papers in PDF saved on my comp... I found them interesting, but having someone try them out and see their results, is even better!

    Although, i dont know; for somereason i was thinking that its only a few shots of kisspeptin to 'jump start', and not continued shots due to the desensitization? Anyways... good luck and keep up the great followup posts!

  11. #11
    dvd
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    Left sciatic nerve. Seems to be focused on my knee the worst. Disk hemorrhaged during a warm up deadlift where I made the mistake of trying to catch the bar when it slipped. Can say being home on an injury does not improve a bad marriage.

    As far as the number of shots it's not just the HPG axis restart but the LH and FSH surges for testicular recovery. Desensitization/suppression would be far more likely to occur from estrogen and/or progesterone. Which is why I'm taking 2.5mg letro/week plus .3mg pramipexole ED. I do not believe that desensitization would occur otherwise since Kisspeptin 54 surges occur naturally during puberty. I'm also taking forskolin to increase cAMP levels due to my age.

    What I have not seen in studies is a follow up where kisspeptin 10 has been discontinued for a longer washout period to see what changes occurred in testosterone , LH and FSH levels. In order to be effective as a PCT agent that's the real question.

    If I had used HCG during my cycle I don't think more than 4-5 shots would be needed. The reason why during PCT more than one shot might be helpful is on hormones left in the body. Even after waiting three days on a test prop/tren ace cycle how much tren is left or it's effect on a HPG axis restart is really an unknown. More than one shot acts as an insurance against possible suppression.
    Last edited by dvd; 02-03-2013 at 03:44 PM.

  12. #12
    dvd
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    Shot 6 out of 7 was today. The seventh shot will mark the two week point for this PCT and the last shot of Kisspeptin-10. A four week washout from kiss10 and a two week washout from clomid/nolva will occur before I get lab tests ran.

  13. #13
    Lemonada8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dvd View Post
    Left sciatic nerve. Seems to be focused on my knee the worst. Disk hemorrhaged during a warm up deadlift where I made the mistake of trying to catch the bar when it slipped. Can say being home on an injury does not improve a bad marriage.
    As far as the number of shots it's not just the HPG axis restart but the LH and FSH surges for testicular recovery. Desensitization/suppression would be far more likely to occur from estrogen and/or progesterone. Which is why I'm taking 2.5mg letro/week plus .3mg pramipexole ED. I do not believe that desensitization would occur otherwise since Kisspeptin 54 surges occur naturally during puberty. I'm also taking forskolin to increase cAMP levels due to my age.
    What I have not seen in studies is a follow up where kisspeptin 10 has been discontinued for a longer washout period to see what changes occurred in testosterone , LH and FSH levels. In order to be effective as a PCT agent that's the real question.
    If I had used HCG during my cycle I don't think more than 4-5 shots would be needed. The reason why during PCT more than one shot might be helpful is on hormones left in the body. Even after waiting three days on a test prop/tren ace cycle how much tren is left or it's effect on a HPG axis restart is really an unknown. More than one shot acts as an insurance against possible suppression.

    Desensitization from estrogen/progesterone doesnt happen, it only acts as a negative feedback preventing release of LH after stimulation of GnRH. Why are you taking letro during PCT, and Pramipexole? You shouldnt be using competitive inhibitors of aromatase ( esp one that potent, high chance of rebound when u stop) during PCT... And why the dopamine agonist still?


    The desensitization does occur quicker with Kiss-54 than Kiss-10, but it still does occur, Repeated administerations in lab experiments have shown the desensitizaiton with Kiss-54; alot more than Kiss-10...
    Are you injecting IM or IV?

    The problem with recovery isnt the pituitary most of the time, since LH can be stimulated and produced faster than Test can; the issue is the Leydig cells in the testes and the Intratesticular testosterone volume. Thats the reason for using HCG on cycle, the pituitary is gonna be shut down due to feedback but it can respond much quicker when it the feedback goes away.



    http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/96/8/E1228.long
    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/294/6/E1088.full

  14. #14
    dvd
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    You're first reference is to total kisspeptin dosage in an iv bolus lasting up to 22.5 hours at 4mcg/kg/hour. There is another study on hypogonadal obese males with type 2 diabetes that study used a 10+ hour bolus of 4mcg/kg/hour. Both increased lh,fsh and testosterone levels . In the study (Google:Exploring the pathophysiology of hypogonadism in men with type 2 diabetes: Kisspeptin-10 stimulates serum testosterone and LH secretion in men with type 2 diabetes and mild biochemical hypogonadism) they also gave the subjects a .3mcg/kg injection and had a similar rise in all three levels. No suppression noted unless the kisspeptin levels were too high since there is a maximal range at which the body can produce LH. At reasonable doses (.3mcg/kg for an injection) this shouldn't be an issue. An IV bolus is also very unrealistic for both outpatient clinics and for home use. Repeated injections over a series of days would be a far more realistic approach for using Kisspeptin-10 as a therapeutic agent.

    The second study is in female rats. Rats are a poor example for female human cycles in many cases since they don't menstruate the same way (no menstrual blood, etc). So in human females kisspeptin-10 reacts in a similar manner as men providing they are either in a state of amenorrhea or in the very early part of the follicular phase of their cycle. As estrogen levels rise kisspeptin-10 no longer has any reaction. You can look up Menstrual cycle on Wikipedia and they have a diagram that includes kisspeptin. You could also look up Estrous cycle on Wikipedia for the difference between rats and humans but for some reason most of the human section is a study involving strippers and how the phase of their cycle effects their income. Must be nice to get that kind of study rather than being stuck in a lab. For a good study on the different responses for women and men to kisspeptin-10. (Google: Contrasting effects of kisspeptin-10 between men and women reveal sexual dimorphism in the hypothalamic regulation of human reproduction.)

    All shots in my case are subQ into fat near my obliques.

  15. #15
    dvd
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    (Google: Kisspeptin neurons from mice to men: similarities and differences.)
    That paper coveres briefly some of the differences both between the different types of kisspeptin neurons and how they respond in different species.

  16. #16
    dvd
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    Last shot of Kisspeptin-10 yesterday.
    Protocol for this PCT:

    Cycle: 430mg Tren ace/wk, 175mg Test Prop, 25mg Dbol , NO HCG . Interrupted at the 10 week mark by injury.

    PCT: Seven shots of Kisspeptin-10 EOD subQ into fat. Dosage of .3-.4mcg/kg. 20mg Tamoxifen ED Weeks 1-2,10mg Weeks 3-4. 50mg Clomid Weeks 1-2,25mg Weeks 3-4. Letro at 2.5mg/week in two doses Weeks 1-4. Pramipexole .3mg ED for Weeks 1-2. DAA (for spermatogenesis) 3g ED Weeks 1-4.

    Again the DAA is for spermatogenesis not Testosterone . There are no supplements that raise Test levels to any real extent in a verifiable way in humans.

  17. #17
    dvd
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    I'll run the full panel in four weeks giving a two week washout period on anything used during the PCT.

  18. #18
    Lemonada8's Avatar
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    What do you mean, DAA is for spermatogensis?

  19. #19
    dvd
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    Google the following:

    The role and molecular mechanism of D-aspartic acid in the release and synthesis of LH and testosterone in humans and rats

    Occurrence of D-aspartic acid in human seminal plasma and spermatozoa: possible role in reproduction.

    DL-Aspartic acid administration improves semen quality in rabbit bucks.

    Basically sperm production in animals and in humans can be severely limited or enhanced by d-Asp levels. Taking d-Asp increases sperm count which is important during PCT. Basically PCT should do the following.

    1.Restoration of the HPA axis. Testosterone, LH and FSH levels should be at precycle levels and ideally in the top quartile. If your levels were off before the cycle you should seek professional help for low hormonal levels. I.E. any of the above levels were in the bottom quartile for your age.

    2.Restoration of reproductive capacity. This is only obviously if you want children at some point.

    3.Maximal retention of any gains made during cycle. Diet and training will be more important for this assuming the PCT recovers natural test levels in a timely fashion.

    I really feel that Kisspeptin-10 can restore the HPA axis in the least amount of time which is the whole point of PCT.

  20. #20
    dvd
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    So the results:
    Pre cycle total test: 790 ng/dl
    Post cycle: 678 ng/dl
    Pre cycle LH: 4.4 mIU/mL
    Post cycle LH: 17.4 mIU/mL
    Pre cycle FSH: 5.8 mIU/mL
    Post cycle FSH: 12.5 mIU/mL

    Other levels:
    BUN/Creatinine Ratio Pre cycle: 23
    BUN/Creatinine Ratio Post cycle: 37
    LDL Pre cycle: 107 mg/dL
    LDL Post cycle: 94 mg/dL

    So even with a washout Kisspeptin is very good at increasing FHS and LH levels. Free test might be low due to high SHBG but I forgot to include that test post cycle. Might add some proviron at the end of my next cycle.
    The BUN/Creatinine levels are off due to my lack of water intake so it serves as a reminder to increase my water intake.
    The LDL levels are better even though I only took Red Yeast Extract and CoQ10 on cycle. Points out the importance of suppliments during cycle for support.

    Over all even without HCG on a tren cycle with tren 2x the level of test, recovery was greatly enhanced by the use of Kisspeptin-10.

  21. #21
    dvd
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    As a side note I also didn't test to see how much test was being converted into DHT either. Judging from the rapid increase of acne I'd wager it wasn't a small ratio but without measuring who knows. I will be taking .5mg dutasteride for the acne and my hair for the next cycle and continue it's use during the PCT.

    For the next PCT I think I will use this:
    50/25/25/25 Clomid
    20/10/10/10 Nolva
    Kisspeptin-10 (dosed at .4mcg/kg) EOD wk 1
    Kisspeptin-10 (dosed at .4mcg/kg) E3D wk 2-3
    dutasteride .5mg wk 1-4
    Letro 1.25mg EOD wk 1-4
    DAA 3g ED wk 1-4
    Forskolin 50mg ED wk 1-4
    Last edited by dvd; 03-19-2013 at 12:22 PM.

  22. #22
    dvd
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    Also since my next cycle will have NPP in it I plan to add .25-.3mg Prami during cycle and for the first 2-3 weeks of PCT to lower progesterone levels.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dvd View Post
    So the results:
    Pre cycle total test: 790 ng/dl
    Post cycle: 678 ng/dl
    Pre cycle LH: 4.4 mIU/mL
    Post cycle LH: 17.4 mIU/mL
    Pre cycle FSH: 5.8 mIU/mL
    Post cycle FSH: 12.5 mIU/mL

    Other levels:
    BUN/Creatinine Ratio Pre cycle: 23
    BUN/Creatinine Ratio Post cycle: 37
    LDL Pre cycle: 107 mg/dL
    LDL Post cycle: 94 mg/dL

    So even with a washout Kisspeptin is very good at increasing FHS and LH levels. Free test might be low due to high SHBG but I forgot to include that test post cycle. Might add some proviron at the end of my next cycle.
    The BUN/Creatinine levels are off due to my lack of water intake so it serves as a reminder to increase my water intake.
    The LDL levels are better even though I only took Red Yeast Extract and CoQ10 on cycle. Points out the importance of suppliments during cycle for support.

    Over all even without HCG on a tren cycle with tren 2x the level of test, recovery was greatly enhanced by the use of Kisspeptin-10.
    Although I understand what it is you are doing, but if you look at your before and after numbers this tells me something.
    LH is 4 times higher than base.
    FSH is double over.
    Now bear with me a moment, with numbers like that, your Testosterone should have been much higher with the LH as high as it is, but it is not.
    This suggests to me that testicular function still has not been achieved.

    As men age, depending on the person, leydig cells get a little less sensitive, with this factor in mind, LH can tend to creep to upper end of normal to bump testosterone levels to normal, this is no big deal really.

    But, if you had full testicular function prior to your PCT, you could very well have recovered much faster than a month as then all that would be needed is LH to be within normal range to get the same response as prior to your cycle.
    I have seen numbers very similar 2 weeks post washout PCT with just SERMS, and namely clomid.

    Problem I have with GnRH type agonist stuff is the fact that they do use them for chemical castration for lets say prostate patients to inhibit testosterone and thus DHT, estrogen, etc.

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