hcG RECOVERY HELP PLEASE!

[dr. triceps]

Alright guys, I've done many prohormone cycles in the past, and looking back in retrospect, it was probably a terrible idea running ph's damage in can cause your hpta. Fast forward to now, I just ran my first real aas cycle of dbol kick start and test-e 500mg/week for 12 weeks then I went into a cruise for 3 weeks at 200 mg because I realized that recovery is not guaranteed without HCG . Yes, I know I messed up but it's never too late to TRY and design a great protocol for recovery (I know this should've been done before cycle).

Goals: Recover my endogenous testosterone and stimulate my LH enough to produce testosterone on my own again at a good level. I want to do this in a way that I will be able to avoid or lessen the "crash" effect that is notorious during post cycle as your androgen levels in the body decreases.

Items on hand: 15,000 ius hcg from pinnacle labs, clomid, nolva, letro, aromasin , DAA, hcgenerate.

I don't want to blast hcg at 500ius/ day for 10 days after my last injection. I prefer a stronger protocol that can avoid leydig cell desensitization. I found an interesting article that challenges my concept of the proper way to administer HCG. In this article for the HCG protocols, it says to use HCG in conjunction with nolva in order to avoid desensitization of the leydig cells. I always thought that using nolva or any serm during HCG was counterproductive.

This is the passage speaking about hcg and nolvadex to avoid desensitization:

"Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur to some degree with prolonged or high dose HCG usage. Using it continuously during a cycle could possibly cause the LH receptor to desensitize which in turn would ultimately render the PCT to be either less effective or possibly useless. This seems counterproductive. HCG will not be needed on cycles where the proper ancillaries are used and where the dosages/durations are realistic.

The previous summary was a general statement. The reality and good news is that Leydig cell desensitization due to HCG usage is blocked and/or minimized by Nolvadex. This occurs by suppressing HCG's ability to inhibit the conversion of 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone to testosterone."


Here is the protocol for hcg recover that I plan to do:

1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks. After the hcg I plan to also use clomid along with the nolvadex at 100/50/50/50.

What are your thoughts? I really need help and am afraid that I may have messed up bad and now I want to ensure recovery. Don't get me wrong I loved my cycle and don't plan on cycling again for at least another year so that I can really focus on diet and hard work alone until I'm more ready for gear. I can't wait to learn all I can about aas use and proper nutrition. I just want to ensure great recovery in a safe and most effective way possible.

Does anyone have an HCG protocol to share that works well after being shut down for a long time? It is very confusing finding a good protocol because of conflicting information on how HCG should be used. My biggest mistake was not using it on cycle. What do you guys think of the article/ the protocol I plan on using for PCT.

PS: even though I've been shut down for a while my balls have not shrunk at all. I wonder if that is a good sign that I may be able to recover. I heard that when your balls atrophy it usually means that it will be harder to recover as you are shut down HARD.

Please chime in and help guys, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried.


Thanks

[dr. triceps]

I was blasting for 12 weeks test-e at 500mg w/ dbol kick start for 6 weeks and now have been cruising on a TRT dose of 200mg of test for 3 weeks coming up on 4 weeks, which would be a total of 16 weeks. I really would like to get my natty test back as quickly and efficiently as possible without having to settle for TRT, which may I might have to do. I know from reading that TRT should be your LAST RESORT. If you are on for 4 months you are dealing with a bad crash post cycle that may even eliminate a chunk of your gains. At this point I think a restart would be in order. Im looking at either:

ONE WEEK BEFORE PCT HCG 500mg eod

PCT WEEK ONE: Nolva 20,HCG 500 ed, Aromasin 12.5 mg a day

PCT WEEK TWO: same as week one

PCT WEEK THREE thru WEEK 7: Nolva 20, clomid 100mg ( weeks 4 and 5 run letro and tapper)

I got this from reading NeverQuits restart protocol that he had success with

OR should I go with this:

1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks. After the hcg I plan to also use clomid along with the nolvadex at 100/50/50/50.


thoughts? I' m looking for a protocol that will ensure recovery quickly and avoid the crash effect.

ps: I wasn't using hcg before.

[MickeyKnox]

I think youre worrying for nothing.

I would simply stop injecting yourself and wait 14 days then begin PCT.

BUT, in the meantime i would run an increased protocol of hCG @ 500iu EOD for the ester period (14 days) and then simply begin PCT. However, i would extend the PCT a couple of wks longer than the standard 4 wks.

My .02..

[dr. triceps]

Ok and when I run the hcg during the 14 day period eod, how much aromasin should I run with it (if I even need to run aromasin with it)?

Also have letro on hand.

[MickeyKnox]

Ok and when I run the hcg during the 14 day period eod, how much aromasin should I run with it (if I even need to run aromasin with it)?

Also have letro on hand.

None. Do not include an AI during the recovery phase.

[dr. triceps]

Somebody suggested that I run dr Scally's power pct or at least a modified version of it. I mean Ive been shut down for 4 months now. In order to signal the LH response in my testes I may need a higher initial dose of hcg to get the testes jump started.

Scally's power pct is:

Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day.
Day 1-30 : Nolva 20mg/day; Clomid 100mg/day (50mg was taken twice per day)
Day 31-45 : Nolva 20mg/day

This seems a bit excessive. I have 15,000 ius of hcg to work with and I want to try anything to avoid the crash effect during pct.

[dr. triceps]

I think I will run a version of the Scally pct:

Day1-16: 2000iu HCG eod and on that last day run 1000iu because I only have 15,000 total ius of HCG. Total of 8 shots.
Day 1-30: Nolva 20 mg/day Clomid 100mg/day
Day 31-45: Nolva 20mg/day

Any thoughts? I think this protocol should get me back to producing good endogenous testosterone.

[MickeyKnox]

I don't think you have a clue whats going on, do you? Youre not really listening to people who have been shut down longer than you - MORE THAN 4 MONTHS. You're just copying and pasting things and dont have really a solid grasp on what these compounds do or their associated roles and behavior within the endocrine system.

Yet you're asking for thoughts and ideas from more experienced and knowledgeable members than you are, but you refuse to listen when solid advice based on experience is given.

If you run it your way, please have bloods done and report back to this thread so we may learn from you. Im always up for new ideas. But my rule of thumb has always been to administer the least amount of compounds as possible, that will still produce the desired expected results.

Good luck

[dr. triceps]

Hey man. Thanks for the response. I just want to make sure I choose the right protocol and part of that is learned through asking people advice on different protocols. I actually had a knowledgeable person on THIS board tell me to use Scally protocol. You told me to run 500 iu of hcg eod in the 14 days it takes to clear the ester. On another board I've had about 10 people tell me to run 500ius ed for 10 days straight, then wait four days and go with clomid and nolva.

Don't take it as me not listening but take it as me trying to learn as much as I can. I appreciate your protocol and am definitely considering it but it's hard to definitively choose it without contemplating other protocols when other knowledgeable members are saying to do it another way (especially since I ****ed up bad by not using HCG on cycle). And yes I will get BW. I got BW before cycle (to establish baseline) and on cycle twice. I will get some BW after the HCG blast and 3 weeks after cessation of the serms. My whole thing is to avoid a TOTAL crash effect. So hopefully the protocol you told me to follow can prevent that.

If you don't mind me asking, why do you suggest not to follow a hcg protocol that advocates the use of high dosage hcg initially? I'm looking to learn as well so I don't make such a bone head move next time I choose to cycle

[MickeyKnox]

Im a huge supporter of Dr. Michael Scally. But as far as the protocol youre referring to, its unnecessary for this specific situation imho. Heck, there was a recent clinical study that proved a 10k blast ONE TIME restored normal function of testies and returned the subject back to a fully functioning eugonadal man who was shut down for over two years. You on the other hand, simply ran a 15-16 wk cycle with 500mg/Test and youre shut down. Big deal. You're being over dramatic and acting like youre the first person who has ever ran a cycle without PCT.

Re read the last line in my last comment.

[dr. triceps]

You are correct I probably am being overly dramatic, I'm not denying that. I did some very dumb things though including the test. I added dbol for 6 weeks than another oral, halodrol for 4. Although my liver is fine I think that I possibly may have done unnecessary damage to the HPTA, that could've been avoided. Yea, it's actually a relief to hear that running test for 16 weeks wasn't that bad for me and I'm over dramatizing it. I hear your point about running the least amount of compounds as possible as these comps can have some nasty sides especially if you don't know what you are doing. The right dosage for optimal recovery, while avoiding sides.

From that study you read about the one time 10k hcg blast, that tells me that it is powerful stuff to be able to help a man recover after being shut down for 2 years. That is the kind of useful data that helps me understand why running as little as 500ius/day or eod after last injection could be just what I need. Thanks for the help brother and I will post BW.

[MickeyKnox]

Don't get me wrong, its extremely important to include a solid recovery plan (PCT) on ALL cycles. But since you didn't, its not the end of the world, but still not a very wise decision.

Begin your PCT like i suggested and im confident you'll be fine. Also, when you go for BW, i would ask to have a liver assay done as well to ensure your enzyme values are where they ought to be.

[dr. triceps]

Will do man. I appreciate the help. I actually got ALL my liver values checked and they were somehow all in good range two weeks ago. I'll do it again when I get my BW again. I'll get some bw done after using hcg and post numbers.

[jrod04]

Dr.triceps. I personally have ran Dr. Scallys protocol after being shut down for a long time and after a mild pct failed me. One thing to take into consideration is possible damage done prior with ph's, not sure if you've had blood work done before between those cycles?? If this is the case then a stronger pct is most likely going to be needed. Mickey is rite and mentor's me in many of my posts lol the smaller the amount the better! Just wanted to let you know the power pct does in fact work as crazy as it sounds and I do have blood work to back it.

[Granovich]

one word: Scally protocol... it worked for me after year of being shutdown and not able to achieve one erection . to 700's total testosterone. healthy and back to normal ... or atleast 90% of before my PCT LESS cycle @ 22 YO

[Antonious]

hows that HCG working for you? is it legit?