What is the best combo to combat gyno on cycle

**kizza234** · 08-22-2013, 01:23 PM

Seems that i'm seeing people running an AI throughout their cycle, and then adding in nolva when gyno comes up? Reason i'm asking is I have a slight lump from the previous cycle a year ago (lump showed up 6 months after the cycle ended.) I've been reading that Raloxifene is recommended OFF cycle, but I was planning on getting back on in the next couple weeks. My question is once I get back on, should i just start up with the AI and Nolva? or is an AI and Raloxifene a better combo while on cycle?

Or does it matter that much.... because Raloxifene is out of stock right now

**austinite** · 08-22-2013, 01:32 PM

You can try Tamoxifen , it's been proven effective. Both ralox and tamox can be used either on or off cycle.

**kizza234** · 08-22-2013, 01:36 PM

should I use it along with an AI?

**austinite** · 08-22-2013, 01:40 PM

What AI are you using?

**kizza234** · 08-22-2013, 01:43 PM

it would be L-Dex or Stane

**austinite** · 08-22-2013, 01:44 PM

There is no adverse interaction with L-Dex, so you can couple them.

**jimmyinkedup** · 08-22-2013, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

There is no adverse interaction with L-Dex, so you can couple them.

Nolva results im a 30% reduction in circulating blood levels of dex and letro. There are no adverse interactions with exemestane. (not that that reduction could not be compensated for with a dosage increase however). I personally would recommend exemestane.

**kizza234** · 08-22-2013, 01:50 PM

cool, and since I see you're an HRT specialist... what would be the lowest amount of test P you'd run with 350mg of Tren A and Mast P. I just want enough Test to offset the Tren's effect. (trying to see if a low dose of test will be any different in the acne that shows up this time)

**austinite** · 08-22-2013, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup

Nolva results im a 30% reduction in circulating blood levels of dex and letro. There are no adverse interactions with exemestane. (not that that reduction could not be compensated for with a dosage increase however). I personally would recommend exemestane.

I thought so, too when I posted the E2/prolactin/progesterone article, but member 100% sent me a study:

British Journal of Cancer - Abstract of article: Pharmacokinetics of anastrozole and tamoxifen alone, and in combination, during adjuvant endocrine therapy for early breast cancer in postmenopausal women: a sub-protocol of the /`Arimidex[trade] and T

As a result of (a) the lack of effect of anastrozole on tamoxifen and DMT levels and (b) the observed fall in blood anastrozole levels having no significant effect on oestradiol suppression by anastrozole, we conclude that the observed reduction in anastrozole levels by tamoxifen is unlikely to be of clinical significance when anastrozole and tamoxifen are administered together.

Not exactly recent but if there is anything more recent, I need to update my knowledge on this...

**austinite** · 08-22-2013, 01:54 PM

The ATAC trial evaluates in a randomized, double-blind design, Arimidex trade mark (anastrozole) alone or in combination with tamoxifen , relative to tamoxifen alone as 5-year adjuvant treatment in postmenopausal women with early breast cancer.

Patients included in the pharmacokinetic (PK) sub-protocol had been in ATAC for > or =3 months, taking their medication in the morning and were 100% compliant for the preceding 14 days. Blood samples were collected 24 +/- 4 h after last dose. Trough (C(min)) plasma concentrations of anastrozole, tamoxifen and desmethyltamoxifen (DMT) were measured by validated methods. The PK results were based on a total of 347 patients (131 anastrozole (1 mg o.d.), 111 tamoxifen (20 mg o.d.), 105 anastrozole and tamoxifen (1 and 20 mg o.d. respectively)).

The geometric mean steady-state trough plasma concentrations of tamoxifen and DMT were statistically equivalent in patients receiving tamoxifen alone or in combination with anastrozole: geometric mean tamoxifen = 94.8 ng ml(-1)and 95.3 ng ml(-1)in tamoxifen alone and combination groups, respectively; geometric mean DMT = 265.1 and 277.6 ng ml(-1)in the tamoxifen and anastrozole and tamoxifen groups, respectively. The geometric mean anastrozole levels were 27% lower (90% Cl 20-33%;P< 0.001) in the presence of tamoxifen than with anastrozole alone. Baseline plasma oestradiol levels were not obtained in the PK sub-protocol, however, such information was available from a similar ATAC sub-protocol, which evaluated bone mineral density. Mean oestradiol levels were 21.3, 19.3, and 21.6 pmol l(-1)prior to treatment and 3.7, 20.9 and 3.6 pmol l(-1)after 3 months in the anastrozole, tamoxifen, and combination groups, respectively (n = 167). On-treatment values were below the detection limit (3 pmol l(-1)) in 43.6 and 38.5% of the anastrozole alone and anastrozole in combination with tamoxifen groups, respectively.

**austinite** · 08-22-2013, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by kizza234

cool, and since I see you're an HRT specialist... what would be the lowest amount of test P you'd run with 350mg of Tren A and Mast P. I just want enough Test to offset the Tren's effect. (trying to see if a low dose of test will be any different in the acne that shows up this time)

HRT specialist and Tren do not go together, lol. Not sure how you correlated that. I don't use Trenbolone , but with any steroid , the minimum should be at least 150 to 250 should be fine.

**kizza234** · 08-22-2013, 02:00 PM

well I just thought you'd have some knowledge of the HRT levels of test dosage... not superman dosage haha. I thought it was around only 80-100mg per week

**jimmyinkedup** · 08-22-2013, 02:15 PM

Concomitant administration of either anastrozole or letrozole with tamoxifen decreases the plasma level of the AI. Concomitant administration of letrozole and tamoxifen decreased the level of letrozole by 38% (90% confidence interval, 32–43%; Ref. 32 ). Anastrozole and tamoxifen administrated concomitantly in the ATAC trial lowered the plasma anastrozole level in the combined arm by 27% (90% confidence interval, 20–30%; Ref. 33 ).

32 : Dowsett M., Pfister C., Johnson S. R. D., Miles D. W., Houston S. J., Verbeek J. A. Impact of tamoxifen on the pharmacokinetics and endocrine effects of the aromatase inhibitor letrozole in postmenopausal women with breast cancer. Clin. Cancer Res., 5: 2338-2343, 1999.

33:he ATAC Trialists’ Group. Pharmacokinetics of anastrozole and tamoxifen alone, and in combination, during adjuvant endocrine therapy for early breast cancer in postmenopausal women: a sub-protocol of the “Arimidex and Tamoxifen Alone or in Combination” (ATAC) trial. Br. J. Cancer, 85: 317-324, 2001.

33 is the study you are referring to. I have seen it before. Here is the issue I have with the results or rather the conclusion they jump to(that the observed reduction in anastrozole levels by tamoxifen is unlikely to be of clinical significance when anastrozole and tamoxifen are administered together) . While a substantial decrease in blood levels of these type of ai's may not be of clinical significance in women with breast cancer , it very well may be in men. As we know the efficacy of ai's is greatly diminished when administered to males. This combined with the substantial reduction in the levels of these type 2 ai's may very well have a substantial clinical significance. This is the crux of many of my arguments when people throw around numbers and data regarding ai efficacy- they use data on women when knowingly the effects are drastically reduced in males. This is why the trend of exemstane dosing has been inaccurate for quite some with regards to frequency of administration as well as dosage amounts.
My point you just cant transition that speculation over as it pertains to males, especially given the inherent reduced efficacy of ai's in men to begin with. It would be far more prudeent to expect, much like is the case with straight ai administration, there is a substantive clinical significance.

**austinite** · 08-22-2013, 02:25 PM

Excellent point, jimmy. Thanks for the reference and explanation. True, I may have had some tunnel vision going on there.

**JCFobsession** · 08-22-2013, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by kizza234

Seems that i'm seeing people running an AI throughout their cycle, and then adding in nolva when gyno comes up? Reason i'm asking is I have a slight lump from the previous cycle a year ago (lump showed up 6 months after the cycle ended.) I've been reading that Raloxifene is recommended OFF cycle, but I was planning on getting back on in the next couple weeks. My question is once I get back on, should i just start up with the AI and Nolva? or is an AI and Raloxifene a better combo while on cycle?

Or does it matter that much.... because Raloxifene is out of stock right now

One word ..... LETRO! !!!! By far the best working stuff. I had gotten gunk before and letro cleared it up 90% I'd say. Only took like .3mg eod till saw improvement

**austinite** · 08-22-2013, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by JCFobsession

One word ..... LETRO! !!!! By far the best working stuff. I had gotten gunk before and letro cleared it up 90% I'd say. Only took like .3mg eod till saw improvement

Terrible option. Read up on Letroo a little more. You use SERMs, not AI's.

**JCFobsession** · 08-22-2013, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

Terrible option. Read up on Letroo a little more. You use SERMs, not AI's.

I have used

Letro, tamox, nolva, Clomid,

Letro did it for me.

You say terrible because of Letro effects or just not for clearing gyno issues?

**austinite** · 08-22-2013, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by JCFobsession

I have used

Letro, tamox, nolva, Clomid,

Letro did it for me.

You say terrible because of Letro effects or just not for clearing gyno issues?

Stop Using Aromatase Inhibitors to Reverse gynecomastia! SERM's Only!

**JCFobsession** · 08-22-2013, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

Stop Using Aromatase Inhibitors to Reverse gynecomastia! SERM's Only!

Great read and thread!!! Lots of knowledge
I used it for gyno only, for quick stop and not letting tinged worse them switched to tamoxifen , which is my main go to.

As far as it working yes, being the best I guess not

**austinite** · 08-22-2013, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by JCFobsession

Great read and thread!!! Lots of knowledge
I used it for gyno only, for quick stop and not letting tinged worse them switched to tamoxifen , which is my main go to.

As far as it working yes, being the best I guess not

The fact of the matter is, it did not work for you. It reduced it, but did not reverse it. It's there. That's why you need a SERM. You'll flare up a lot faster in the future.

**JCFobsession** · 08-22-2013, 03:49 PM

So using a 1 ml syringe and taking tamoxifen
How much daily ??? I did just .4 to .5mg
Daily.

Typically all the brands taste disgusting!! Gotta take it with soda songs carbonation gets it off my tongue lol

**jimmyinkedup** · 08-22-2013, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by JCFobsession

So using a 1 ml syringe and taking tamoxifen
How much daily ??? I did just .4 to .5mg
Daily.

Typically all the brands taste disgusting!! Gotta take it with soda songs carbonation gets it off my tongue lol

40 mg/day the first week - 20mg/day after that. Expect to run at least 2 months.