cracking joints- aromasin?

**greengo** · 10-24-2013, 10:40 AM

Guys,

over the last few years I developed a connective tissue disorder that is destroying my joints. Ive done years of testing etc. no doc has been able to explain this. It started after a failed ACJ operation then my joints started to crack and pop and now they are loose, weak, and stretch out similar to ehlors danlos syndrome.

Things have become really bad lately and my doc has seen how bad things have become. I asked him about oxandrolone and deca ... he said that there is literateure/ studies that deca does increase collagen synthesis but this has not become a treatment option yet but could one day. He prescribed me oxandrolone and deca.

Im on week 3 of 60mg anavar /daily. and test e @ 150mg weekly. aromasin 12.5mg daily. My joints do feel better but this week the cracking has increased. Im guessing this is the aromsin killing my estrogen. Ive read that low estrogen can cause cracking.

At this low dose, do I need this much aromasin? can I take it a few days a week instead. My blood work pre cycle, estradiol was slightly higher than average and test in the high range.

and if I was to add the deca at 50mg weekly, how could this effect aromasin? I also have a little arimidex , should I try switching ? and at what dose?

at the moment I feel no sides. but joints are cracking more than ususal.

many thanks,

**Bio-Active** · 10-24-2013, 12:04 PM

I think you are going to get better responses in the steroid forum. People in this forum are geared more towards pct. However if you are only doing 150mg ew of test have you run labs to determine that you even need to run an AI. On a trt dose of test there are many out there that do not need an AI. I suggest you run labs to see what is going on

**greengo** · 10-24-2013, 01:59 PM

ok thanks will do.

would my pct be the same dose of standard 1st cycle?

**Bio-Active** · 10-24-2013, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by greengo

ok thanks will do. would my pct be the same dose of standard 1st cycle?

list out your entire cycle please including AI and hcg

**Far from massive** · 10-24-2013, 06:04 PM

While all this is good, in my opinion a much better tool is a quick blood test to see what current values of estro are.

Also I may get bashed by many but......if you are having joint problems this serious dropping AI's causes an improvement and only increases you estro to slightly above normal then I would say drop the AI's.

My personal experience has been that AI's in both me and a close friend have been counter productive. In my friend it caused major hair thinning using an AI on cycle compared to not using an AI. With me I have arthritis in both my neck and back and usage of an AI causes both areas to become very annoying, I prefer the bitchiness and other changes I have seen to the creaking and cracking.

Again this is just my experience and may not be representative of what is best for the majority of people or you.

**EasyDoesIt** · 10-24-2013, 11:07 PM

That does sound high on the aromasin , 12.5 eod (every other day) should be plenty. I know guys on your test dosage and do not run any with no problems. But as stated (farfrommassive) blood work is proof in the pudding. Being new to this you may have to work through some issues.
Just out of curiosity: did your doc recommend 50mgs deca per week?

**Bio-Active** · 10-25-2013, 02:56 AM

Considering the half life 6 mg Ed would be better than 12.5 eod

**greengo** · 10-25-2013, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by jim230027

list out your entire cycle please including AI and hcg

60mg oxandrolone/ daily - 10 weeks
150mg test e/weekly - 10 weeks
aromasin 12.5mg daily ( I stopped this about 4 or 5 days ago and feel the cracking is slightly decreased)
HCG 250IU/ weekly (dont have it anymore as I was travelling and did not have a script for this)

Im now on week 3.
2 days ago was feeling very tired. had my test shot and feeling better but still tired. I feel the dose is too low.

I want to add the deca but worried about sides. i was given 50mg/week for 12 weeks. thinking I should just do 100mg for 6 weeks instead????

thanks

**greengo** · 10-25-2013, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by EasyDoesIt

That does sound high on the aromasin , 12.5 eod (every other day) should be plenty. I know guys on your test dosage and do not run any with no problems. But as stated (farfrommassive) blood work is proof in the pudding. Being new to this you may have to work through some issues.
Just out of curiosity: did your doc recommend 50mgs deca per week?

A different doc prescribed me testogel and arimidex but I did not buy the test but have some arimidex. I hear its slightly less powerful than aromasin.

Thinking maybe of 6mg of aromasin daily. but they are 25mg tabs and tiny.. real bitch to cut.

and yes my doc gave me 50mg of deca per week. 12 weeks. i worry this is not enough though. He also tells me not to use any test as this dose is too low to cause sides. but again he is doing this as off-label use and the oxandrolone will cause shut down.

**greengo** · 10-25-2013, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Far from massive

While all this is good, in my opinion a much better tool is a quick blood test to see what current values of estro are.

Also I may get bashed by many but......if you are having joint problems this serious dropping AI's causes an improvement and only increases you estro to slightly above normal then I would say drop the AI's.

My personal experience has been that AI's in both me and a close friend have been counter productive. In my friend it caused major hair thinning using an AI on cycle compared to not using an AI. With me I have arthritis in both my neck and back and usage of an AI causes both areas to become very annoying, I prefer the bitchiness and other changes I have seen to the creaking and cracking.

Again this is just my experience and may not be representative of what is best for the majority of people or you.

I dont care about a slight increase in estro if the sides are not eextreme. but again Im new to this and obviously my cycle is not the norm so Im trying to see what is the best way to do this. been off aromasin for a few days now and cracking is slightly better I think. in anycase Im going to run some tests tomorrow. its good to speak to someone familiar with joint issues and has cycled. can i ask, what have you cycled? and how did this effect your joints?

thanks

**EasyDoesIt** · 10-25-2013, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by greengo

A different doc prescribed me testogel and arimidex but I did not buy the test but have some arimidex. I hear its slightly less powerful than aromasin .

Thinking maybe of 6mg of aromasin daily. but they are 25mg tabs and tiny.. real bitch to cut.

and yes my doc gave me 50mg of deca per week. 12 weeks. i worry this is not enough though. He also tells me not to use any test as this dose is too low to cause sides. but again he is doing this as off-label use and the oxandrolone will cause shut down.

I hear you on the aromasin, mine are tiny pills and it is tough enough to cut them in half . Quarters is impossible. i actually use a razor blade to do it, the pill cutter does not work when they are that small. @farfrommassive, i won't be bashing you on the AI, LOL I think dosages and usage of them vary from person to person. I am 59 years old and if i can get away with less AI i will. those things can have some not so great side effects long term. I have known pro bodybuilders that have never used an ai and abused steroids for many years, not saying it's correct, but your not going to have fatal issues at 150mgs test per week. Also, i don't know if your test is a script, but if not it may even be under dosed.
Blood work is a good idea tho. 50mgs deca is pretty low in my opinion.

**greengo** · 10-26-2013, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by EasyDoesIt

I hear you on the aromasin , mine are tiny pills and it is tough enough to cut them in half . Quarters is impossible. i actually use a razor blade to do it, the pill cutter does not work when they are that small. @farfrommassive, i won't be bashing you on the AI, LOL I think dosages and usage of them vary from person to person. I am 59 years old and if i can get away with less AI i will. those things can have some not so great side effects long term. I have known pro bodybuilders that have never used an ai and abused steroids for many years, not saying it's correct, but your not going to have fatal issues at 150mgs test per week. Also, i don't know if your test is a script, but if not it may even be under dosed.
Blood work is a good idea tho. 50mgs deca is pretty low in my opinion.

LOL when I cut them in half sometimes they break up into tiny pieces. my test is not scripted. Im considering doing 200mg next week. I agree the deca is too low, thats why im thinking just adding this @100mg - 6 weeks and then trying to get another script from my doc for another 2 weeks.

considering how my current cycle is going with the AI in mind, what should I expect adding the deca? any idea? im scared of the deca lol.
this might sound stupid but without the hcg are my testies gonna shrink???? scary stuff lol.
Will post my blood work soon. thanks for your input.

**greengo** · 10-26-2013, 03:15 AM

just to confirm. is this what I should be testing ?

testosterone
testosterone free
estradiol 2

**Bio-Active** · 10-26-2013, 06:18 AM

That would be the minimum labs to effectively try to manage your test and estrogen levels

**greengo** · 10-26-2013, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by jim230027

That would be the minimum labs to effectively try to manage your test and estrogen levels

Labs back:

E2 88.13 (7.63-42.6)
Total t 28.95 (8.64-29.0)
test free 1.05 (0.31-1.04)
Bio available test 25.2 (2.50-8.15)

E2 is high, I guess its just my condition continuing to get worse and not the low E2. Is this considered too high? should I go back to running 12.5mg daily?

thanks

**Bio-Active** · 10-26-2013, 01:43 PM

Your test is at the top of the range and from the looks of things yes your estrogen is high.

**greengo** · 10-26-2013, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by jim230027

Your test is at the top of the range and from the looks of things yes your estrogen is high.

any ideas for PCT?

**Bio-Active** · 10-26-2013, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by greengo

any ideas for PCT?

lol of course what meds are you planning to use?

**greengo** · 10-26-2013, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by jim230027

lol of course what meds are you planning to use?

Ive got some clomid and nolva. but not sure of dosage to suit my cycle. im also likely to add deca if that effects pct.

thanks

**Megalodon6** · 10-26-2013, 04:40 PM

Are you saying you want to add deca to your pct?

**EasyDoesIt** · 10-26-2013, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by greengo

Labs back:

E2 88.13 (7.63-42.6)

E2 is high, I guess its just my condition continuing to get worse and not the low E2. Is this considered too high? should I go back to running 12.5mg daily?

thanks

Not sure if you stated somewhere, but is your aromasin prescription? Just trying to verify if it's real. You had the joint and cracking sounds before you started test and aromasin right? You stated it started after you had surgery also right? I am wondering if there was any medication you took before, during or after the surgery. Because it sounds to me like this high e2 is not related to test or anything to do with this cycle because you had it before. I surely am no doc, but just trying to decipher if info here will put e2 in check. Even if you go overboard with AI and it drops it to stable level, there is something going on in your system creating the problem. At this point your doc's have not been able to figure it out? What type of doc are you seeing for this condition? Have you seen any specialists?
Also, don't get to worried about 100mgs deca , i was the same way in the beginning. lol

**EasyDoesIt** · 10-26-2013, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Megalodon6

Are you saying you want to add deca to your pct?

Looks like that, but i think he is adding deca to his cycle and wondering if it will affect his PCT.

**Bio-Active** · 10-26-2013, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by greengo

Ive got some clomid and nolva. but not sure of dosage to suit my cycle. im also likely to add deca if that effects pct. thanks

nolva 40/40/20/20 Clomid 100/50/50/50 if you run deca during your cycle discontinue it 1-2 weeks before you drop the test. I won't even ask if you were thinking of running the deca during your pct.

**Megalodon6** · 10-26-2013, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by jim230027

nolva 40/40/20/20 Clomid 100/50/50/50 if you run deca during your cycle discontinue it 1-2 weeks before you drop the test. I won't even ask if you were thinking of running the deca during your pct.

Lol thats what I was thinking

**greengo** · 10-27-2013, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by Megalodon6

Are you saying you want to add deca to your pct?

Not sure where you got that from. I clearly say im thinking of adding deca to my cycle and wondering how that will change pct.

**greengo** · 10-27-2013, 02:37 AM

Originally Posted by EasyDoesIt

Not sure if you stated somewhere, but is your aromasin prescription? Just trying to verify if it's real. You had the joint and cracking sounds before you started test and aromasin right? You stated it started after you had surgery also right? I am wondering if there was any medication you took before, during or after the surgery. Because it sounds to me like this high e2 is not related to test or anything to do with this cycle because you had it before. I surely am no doc, but just trying to decipher if info here will put e2 in check. Even if you go overboard with AI and it drops it to stable level, there is something going on in your system creating the problem. At this point your doc's have not been able to figure it out? What type of doc are you seeing for this condition? Have you seen any specialists?
Also, don't get to worried about 100mgs deca, i was the same way in the beginning. lol

My aromasin is not prescription but pharma grade. My E2 was slightly high to begin with even before cycle. But surely not this high. I was on pain meds during surgery. its this chronically painful shoulder that developed into muscle pain, instabilty and somehow spread into neck, back, etc. eventually to all joints. My joints crack and are lax. Ive seen a number of rheumatologists, internal medicine, orthopaedics, pain specialists and a genetic specialist, spine/neuro surgeon. ive been given 'secondary fibromyalgia' diagnoses which means fibromyalgia that is caused by something else. anyway I know the cause of this is the shoulder and perhaps if I fix it properly things will get better for now surgery would be difficult.

deca kicks in after 5 weeks? so if i run 100mg /week for 6 weeks what should I expect?

**Bio-Active** · 10-27-2013, 05:17 AM

So your pct wouldn't change adding the deca to your cycle just do as outlined. Most that run low dose deca during a cycle for joints keep it around 150 ew. I have no idea if that would help with what you have going on though.

**greengo** · 10-27-2013, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by jim230027

So your pct wouldn't change adding the deca to your cycle just do as outlined. Most that run low dose deca during a cycle for joints keep it around 150 ew. I have no idea if that would help with what you have going on though.

Thanks very much mate. Will have to run it and see what happens. might ask my doc for a little more if I feel this is helping.

**EasyDoesIt** · 10-27-2013, 12:00 PM

I wouldn't expect to much from Deca with your issues. If any docs put you on prednisone, i wouldn't stay on it long. I personally knew someone put on prednisone and after5 years it destroyed her bones even with fosamax which is suppose to strengthen them. That's a tough one brother.

**greengo** · 10-27-2013, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by EasyDoesIt

I wouldn't expect to much from Deca with your issues. If any docs put you on prednisone, i wouldn't stay on it long. I personally knew someone put on prednisone and after5 years it destroyed her bones even with fosamax which is suppose to strengthen them. That's a tough one brother.

prednisolone is for inflammatory type arthritis but I have no inflammation. if i did it would be simpler to treat. Im not expecting a miracle from deca especially at this dose but if it helps a little im happy. at least if it gives me the strength to go through surgery to fix the shoulder. One doc told me this is the route cause and without fixing it probably not going to get better. Its mainly in my shoulders. After the second operation my condition got worse but once the shoulder settled I completely recovered. When it dislocated again my symptoms returned.

on hgh now as well so hopefully some improvement. thanks for your input.

**EasyDoesIt** · 10-27-2013, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by greengo

prednisolone is for inflammatory type arthritis but I have no inflammation. if i did it would be simpler to treat. Im not expecting a miracle from deca especially at this dose but if it helps a little im happy. at least if it gives me the strength to go through surgery to fix the shoulder. One doc told me this is the route cause and without fixing it probably not going to get better. Its mainly in my shoulders. After the second operation my condition got worse but once the shoulder settled I completely recovered. When it dislocated again my symptoms returned.

on hgh now as well so hopefully some improvement. thanks for your input.

HGH definitely helped my joints, unfortunately not been able to afford it for some time. I have arthritis history in family and my elbows hurt bad at times, to many punches and back hands from Martial arts training, but holding pads for clients is the real killer. i go through periods where i can't hold pads to let them calm down. I try and use supplements and flax seeds for inflammation. I have taken so much ibuprofin over the years i don't like to use it unless i really have to anymore. It's to bad hgh is frowned upon by docs in the US. I don't really ever see the cost of it going down either.
Good luck!

**greengo** · 10-27-2013, 05:37 PM

Im curious, what type of arthritis do you have? rhuematoid? The HGH is a wallet killer but does help. originally I tried a low dose then raised it to about 4IU and felt some result. but for a while I just coudn't afford it.

I have done prolotherapy during the period were I was recovering and it works amazing I have to say. my SC joint was completely unstable and within 4 weeks of the treatment it tighten up really well. Unfortuntately when things got worse it became loose again and more injections did not help. I then tried PRP which did nothing, in fact might have made it worse. But it does work well for some people I hear.

Ive been told about a study in a Denmark Hospital where they used IGF1 injections directly into the effected joints for EDS patients. Unfortunately they have not included the results online and Ive not been able to get in touch with them yet.

Good luck to you to mate. its good to share experiences with others that have joint issues. its a shame the science is not really there yet and we have to find ways to improve. whats important is that we keep looking for answers. one doc told me that gluten and dairy allergy could develop into joint problems and cutting those out for 3 months could result in improvement.

**EasyDoesIt** · 10-27-2013, 06:08 PM

I have never been diagnosed with arthritis and mine is mostly in elbow joints (tendentious). Also get it from time to time in my knees. My mother had rheumatoid tho. All my uncles on her side have it. I think working out all my life has helped me from having it bad. I always look for gluten free products and stay away from dairy as it definitely makes it worse. I feel cutting dairy makes improvements pretty quick. I live in a dry climate and that helps it from being to bad also. Yes good to share experiences. HGH MIRACLE AND ANTI AGING DRUG. I started late in life on AAS. Had a short cycle here in there not knowing a thing in my late 30's. But i really did not do it right. Would have been better to do a real cycle to put on real muscle tissue. My test got so low from working two jobs, stress and lack of sleep in early 50's. That was what put me on test and at this point i am not getting off. But i feel better and when i read about these guys here starting at 19 years old i just figure they are weak and undisciplined.
Keep training, learning and exercise safely, you will last longer. It is hard when your younger to get that message, but things creep up on you slowly as you age. I felt pretty indestructible even up in my mid 40"s, but now i look for longevity. I can hold my own and probably look better than most young guys in the gym, but i do not go up and down like a lot. I don't compete and find a lot of people need to compete to get in great shape, but then they go back to being soft and fat after. LOL
This site has educated me quite a bit and always learning.