4 week PCT vs 8+ week PCT?

[templeofgainz]

So I see the common advice in the stickies here is a 4 week PCT that includes both Clomid and Nolva. Normally running a double dose for the first 2 weeks and then single doses for 2 weeks.

I frequent /r/steroids on reddit as another source of quality info for my research and they recommend an 8 week PCT of a single SERM, favoring Nolva over Clomid for cost effectiveness and side reduction. Something like 20mg ed Nolva for 6-8 weeks.

Their reasoning is that SERMs do not produce a significant difference in exodgenous testosterone production when doubling the dose and the only potential benefit of increasing the dose is acheiving optimal blood plasma levels quicker to achieve faster HPTA recovery. They claim the double dosing is unnecessary and that it only increases risks of side effects with SERMs.

They have linked some research showing that SERMs for a longer period of time improve stimulation of testosterone, but I haven't got around to looking over it. Doesnt help my ADHD abhors academic literature more than anything else.

Anyways, what are your experiences with long vs short PCTs and what is your take on the two?

[Windex]

The sooner you finish PCT, the sooner you can do accurate bloodwork to see where you landed.

The sooner you do accurate bloodwork, then the sooner you can determine when to go back on.

Tamoxifen and Clomid were also never designed for PCT for bodybuilders. it was just a side effect of the drugs being made and discovered by happenstance.

If I was not on HRT, I would not be wasting 8 weeks chugging SERMs.

Not that anything the reddit user suggested is "wrong" persay just not how I would go about it. I also think reddit is just a pit of brpscience and mickey mousery.

Just my $0.02

[templeofgainz]

thanks for the reply, something to dwell on.

It's not a particular post or poster, but the sidebar references. It's pretty solid overall from the way the info looks and most of it falls in line with the stickies here. PCT was the only glaring thing that contradicted some of the info here so I wanted to cross check with some of the knowledgable users.

[GearHeaded]

the reason for Nolva and Clomid together is that even though they are both SERMs they work through different mechanisms of action. Keep in mind that estrogen plays a huge role in the HPTA and the signaling of the pituitary. if estrogen is high your brain/body will have no reason to stimulate testosterone production.
the simplest way to think about it is that the Nolva works by blocking estrogen at receptor sites and the clomid stimulates the pituitary to produce LH (both then indirectly promote natural test production).
If you go into your pct with low levels of estrogen (you can run an AI at the end of your cycle) your natty test production will likely come back sooner. As estrogen is a vital hormone and the only way your body can get it is by producing test.

running an AI at the tail end of the cycle, then blasting HCG for 2 weeks, then running the combo of Nolva and Clomid together,, is going assure that all 'boxes have been checked off' and you've covered all your basis.
sure you could forget all that and just run clomid. or you could just not bother with PCT at all and you'll likely recover just fine. but if you want to restart your HPTA as fast and stout as possible, the above is how I would do it.


having said all that - I'm not a fan of PCT after each cycle for anyone that is serious about bodybuilding. your better off staying on 9-10 months out of the year and doing a once per year PCT or just staying on and TRT

[templeofgainz]

Thanks for the response. Not serious about bodybuilding, although I'm open to focusing on it in the future recreationally. Currently training for powerlifting. My main goal is maximal overall strength while maintaining a reasonable level of health and a good physique for life, not the stage.

My first cycle is off in the future anyways, just trying to research as much as possible and fill in the blanks where its not so clear.

[5millionbucks]

the reason for Nolva and Clomid together is that even though they are both SERMs they work through different mechanisms of action. Keep in mind that estrogen plays a huge role in the HPTA and the signaling of the pituitary. if estrogen is high your brain/body will have no reason to stimulate testosterone production.
the simplest way to think about it is that the Nolva works by blocking estrogen at receptor sites and the clomid stimulates the pituitary to produce LH (both then indirectly promote natural test production).
If you go into your pct with low levels of estrogen (you can run an AI at the end of your cycle) your natty test production will likely come back sooner. As estrogen is a vital hormone and the only way your body can get it is by producing test.

running an AI at the tail end of the cycle, then blasting HCG for 2 weeks, then running the combo of Nolva and Clomid together,, is going assure that all 'boxes have been checked off' and you've covered all your basis.
sure you could forget all that and just run clomid. or you could just not bother with PCT at all and you'll likely recover just fine. but if you want to restart your HPTA as fast and stout as possible, the above is how I would do it.


having said all that - I'm not a fan of PCT after each cycle for anyone that is serious about bodybuilding. your better off staying on 9-10 months out of the year and doing a once per year PCT or just staying on and TRT

Would you say this about even for a beginner. And say you did blast and cruise for 9months out of the year. Wouldn't taking 3 months off not be enough to recover or even have enough time to desensitze from the gear use?

[JohnnyBreeze]

I am interested in this question as well. I've read both this site's suggestion for a PCT plan as well as William Llewellyn's which is a bit different and longer. I think it's pretty close to what the OP is suggesting for the 8 week PCT plan. I'm not doing this professionally, so I'm leaning on the longer plan, but would definitely like some input from more experienced members.

[Wickedg8gt]

Even though I just went on my first cycle, this is a great post by the OP. I also have read everything on "Reddit" and other AAS forums and boards including everything in all the stickies and pinned post on this fprum; and pct is definitely a broad range. I would also like to see results from alot of the members who went off cycle and pct'd with dosage versus sides. As there are many posts stating higher dosages lead to worse mental health sides like depression and suicidal thoughts.

[JaneDoe]

So I see the common advice in the stickies here is a 4 week PCT that includes both Clomid and Nolva. Normally running a double dose for the first 2 weeks and then single doses for 2 weeks.

I frequent /r/steroids on reddit as another source of quality info for my research and they recommend an 8 week PCT of a single SERM, favoring Nolva over Clomid for cost effectiveness and side reduction. Something like 20mg ed Nolva for 6-8 weeks.

Their reasoning is that SERMs do not produce a significant difference in exodgenous testosterone production when doubling the dose and the only potential benefit of increasing the dose is acheiving optimal blood plasma levels quicker to achieve faster HPTA recovery. They claim the double dosing is unnecessary and that it only increases risks of side effects with SERMs.

They have linked some research showing that SERMs for a longer period of time improve stimulation of testosterone, but I haven't got around to looking over it. Doesnt help my ADHD abhors academic literature more than anything else.

Anyways, what are your experiences with long vs short PCTs and what is your take on the two?

Nolvadex significantly increases LH response to LHRL.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/640052


Clomid works by stopping the interaction of estrogen with the pituitary gland. This leads to an increase in FSH, which leads to higher levels of testosterone production.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22958644








In men, FSH leads to an increase in sperm production and LH leads to an increase in testosterone production.

[JaneDoe]

This is why it is efficient to use both at the same time. Recovery improved!
As you can see, Nolvadex works differently from Clomid.
Each of these medicines has their role in PCT, so in my opinion it is not worth using only Nolvadex.

[JaneDoe]

Don't listen to internet assholes you listen to out there.
There are a lot of guys that give us shit information!


As you can see, most ofs members of steroid .com will advise you to use both (Clomid + Nolvadex)

[gunsonwheels00]

I've been running only clomid for 6 weeks, but I'm going to try running both now and see if I have less of a "crash" coming off cycle. Thanks for the info!!