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Thread: Blod Work Results after PCT

  1. #1
    Bjorg89 is offline Junior Member
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    Blod Work Results after PCT

    Hi,

    after being shut down for two years (using testo to long) I decided to do PCT Protocol for trying to restart my HPTA.

    I did as follows (doctor instructed):

    500 iu HCG ED for 14 days followed by
    25mg Clomid + 10mg Nolva for next 14 days.

    I also used Maca 2g/day and DAA 3g/day.

    Blood work right after:

    Total T: 360 ng/dl ------> 250-850 ng/dl
    Free T: 6,1 ng/dl ------> 5,8-18 ng/dl
    LH: 6,1 mIU/ml ------> 0,1-8 mIU/ml
    FSH: 6,2 mIU/ml ------> 0,1-11 mIU/ml
    SHBG: 41 nmol/L ------> 13-71 nmol/L
    Estro: 14ng/L ------> 10-40 ng/L
    sDHEA: 330 ug/dl ------> 120-520 ug/dl

    It is obvious that PCT didn't work, but I am confused that there is no high LH or FSH, even though I did the test just two days after I stopped the drugs.

    Any thoughts on that guys? Does that tell anything?

    Doctor says I need a TRT. I am very disappointed, because we are trying to conceive

    Cheers
    Last edited by Bjorg89; 05-13-2020 at 08:24 AM.

  2. #2
    Gallowmere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorg89 View Post
    Hi,

    after being shut down for two years (using testo to long) I decided to do PCT Protocol for trying to restart my HPTA.

    I did as follows (doctor instructed):

    500 iu HCG ED for 14 days followed by
    25mg Clomid + 10mg Nolva for next 14 days.

    I also used Maca 2g/day and DAA 3g/day.

    Blood work right after:

    Total T: 360 ng/dl ------> 250-850 ng/dl
    Free T: 6,1 ng/dl ------> 5,8-18 ng/dl
    LH: 6,1 mIU/ml ------> 0,1-8 mIU/ml
    FSH: 6,2 mIU/ml ------> 0,1-11 mIU/ml
    SHBG: 41 nmol/L ------> 13-71 nmol/L
    Estro: 14ng/L ------> 10-40 ng/L
    sDHEA: 330 ug/dl ------> 120-520 ug/dl

    It is obvious that PCT didn't work, but I am confused that there is no high LH or FSH, even though I did the test just two days after I stopped the drugs.

    Any thoughts on that guys? Does that tell anything?

    Doctor says I need a TRT. I am very disappointed, because we are trying to conceive

    Cheers
    First, TRT isnít a death sentence for fertility. Get an actual sperm panel done instead of relying on bloodwork to do a job it isnít intended for.
    Second, clomiphene has an elimination halflife of about 4-5 days, and Nolvadex about 5-6. So yeah, at the two day point, you should theoretically be higher, but itís irrelevant.
    With those values and your test still being that low, your problem is most likely at the testicles themselves, and not the pituitary. Getting your LH up above normal isnít going to accomplish shit if thatís all your testes will dump out, regardless of signal.
    So yeah, your doctor is probably right in the end.
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  3. #3
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    That doesn't seem like much of a PCT, especially not after being on for 2 years straight. You might want to rerun PCT for 4 weeks and doses mentioned in the 'planning my first cycle' thread or look into 'Power PCT'

    I DO like the addition of both the OTCs, Gaba and DAA, though I would personally remove the DAA and replace with Longjack and Mucuna Pruriens. Those aren't a substitute for pharma PCT, but good substances all the same and likely good add ons for PCT, IMHO (disclaimer - my experience is not with PCT but with HRT). Peep examine.com for details.

    That said, as @Gallowmere said, there may be more stuff going on.
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  4. #4
    Bjorg89 is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you both guys for the input.

    I checked the sperm. It is not brilliant, but the doc says it is not bad either.

    The sperm count is 60 million (<20 mil is considered low), 60% (50% is min) mobility (good swimers) and 2% (4% is min) are "healthy".

    So 2% is low, but 2% from 60 mil is still more then 4% from 20 mil, so we should be able to conceive.

    Anyways, the Urologist suggested taking zinc, selen and Q10 combo for improving the sperm.

    My TRT Doctor said I should use HMG, Proviron (Masterolone) and DHEA. 75iu E2D, 25mg ED, 25mg ED.

    I have no idea what this drugs are.

    I read that HMG gives better results with sperm than HCG . The other two are supposed to make me feel better.

    This approach is meant for the time until we get pregnant, because the Doctor said that I can't start TRT until we manage to conceive.

    Any thoughts on this?

    Regards

  5. #5
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    How cool is it to have Proviron scripted?

    I THINK HMG imitates FSH where HCG imitates LH. That is a gross oversimplification but I believe fundamentally accurate (and accurate enough in this context). So, the use of HMG over HCG makes sense in this case.

    The OTC supps won't hurt and DHEA is not a bad add on to TRT in general. Once again, I would refer to examine.com for the details on them. Seems like there is good info on each of those there.

    I did find this article on the use of Proviron as fertility treatment. In short, the part I found interesting was "Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated"

    Here is the link if you want to read the details.
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  6. #6
    Bjorg89 is offline Junior Member
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    .....
    Last edited by Bjorg89; 05-16-2020 at 02:57 AM. Reason: double post

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    Bjorg89 is offline Junior Member
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    I have no idea Is it?

    Thanks for the infos cylon357

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    Ephemeral is offline Junior Member
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    HCG is suppressive so u pretty much did 2 weeks of PCT after 2 years on gear. I suggest that u don't take more drugs that u don't understand, especially proviron which is also suppressive. Give your body time, it can take months to recover fully, jumping on TRT now would be a big mistake imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemeral View Post
    HCG is suppressive so u pretty much did 2 weeks of PCT after 2 years on gear. I suggest that u don't take more drugs that u don't understand, especially proviron which is also suppressive. Give your body time, it can take months to recover fully, jumping on TRT now would be a big mistake imo.
    Can you elaborate on this one pal?

    Im on TRT, so i dont use HCG at all since i have no need to PCT/recover.
    HCG is suppressive of what? I understood that it emulated LH production which in turn kept your own HPTA somewhat functioning throughout a cycle, thus making recover easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by krugerr View Post
    Can you elaborate on this one pal?

    Im on TRT, so i dont use HCG at all since i have no need to PCT/recover.
    HCG is suppressive of what? I understood that it emulated LH production which in turn kept your own HPTA somewhat functioning throughout a cycle, thus making recover easier.
    HCG mimics LH, and it signals your brain that you don't need to produce LH (and FSH), that's why it's suppressive. It's useful on a cycle to keep your testicles functioning, but not as PCT. It's also pretty important to include it on a TRT protocol for the same reason, but there are other reasons for its use as well, see this:

    https://forums.steroid.com/hormone-r...ould-know.html

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemeral View Post
    HCG mimics LH, and it signals your brain that you don't need to produce LH (and FSH), that's why it's suppressive. It's useful on a cycle to keep your testicles functioning, but not as PCT. It's also pretty important to include it on a TRT protocol for the same reason, but there are other reasons for its use as well, see this:

    https://forums.steroid.com/hormone-r...ould-know.html

    Ahh see, i thought there was no feedback on LH production that means exogenous sources would down regulate your own.
    Unfortunately the UK dont recognise a lot of TRT protocols.

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    I think there is some misunderstanding here. In my first post I am saying that I have been shut down for two years and not that I have been on gear for two years.

    I was on Enanthate 250mg/w for two years, I did 6 weeks of HCG before discontinuing Test and after that Clomid and Nolva 75/75/50/50 and 40/40/20/20.

    I did not recover!

    That was two years ago. Since then, I haven't used anything and my T has been low. I have been shut down since then.

    So this protocol that I just did, was a shot at trying to recover HPTA, but obviously it didn't work.

    The protocol was doctor prescribed. Also HMG and Proviron are doctor prescribed, but I haven't started that yet.

    The doctor basically said that protocol didn't work and that TRT is my only option. When I said we want to get pregnant, then he said I should just repeat HCG, Clomid and Nolva protocol and add HMG with HCG and Proviron with Nolva and Clomid.

    And then I got some guy who says I should do PCT for 6 months, since I have been shut down for so long.

    I just don't know...

  13. #13
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    Total T: 360 ng/dl
    that was your test level after your PCT .. have you got it checked again since then?

    that test levels isn't really all that low . sure its not optimal but its also not concerning low either.
    especially in the context of trying to have children.

    I conceived 5 children with a total T of 160 ng/dl .. the idea that your test levels are parallel to your fertility is simply not true .. and like Gallow mentioned, being on TRT is no way a death sentence for fertility.

    anyhow,, have you got recent blood work since the PCT drugs have cleared your system. are you 'really' shut down.
    if your test levels are really , naturally, 360 ng/dl , I wouldn't consider that shut down at all . in fact most docs wouldn't even prescribe you TRT with that high of natty test levels.

  14. #14
    Bjorg89 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    that was your test level after your PCT .. have you got it checked again since then?

    that test levels isn't really all that low . sure its not optimal but its also not concerning low either.
    especially in the context of trying to have children.

    I conceived 5 children with a total T of 160 ng/dl .. the idea that your test levels are parallel to your fertility is simply not true .. and like Gallow mentioned, being on TRT is no way a death sentence for fertility.

    anyhow,, have you got recent blood work since the PCT drugs have cleared your system. are you 'really' shut down.
    if your test levels are really , naturally, 360 ng/dl , I wouldn't consider that shut down at all . in fact most docs wouldn't even prescribe you TRT with that high of natty test levels.
    Yes,

    Total T: 360 ng/dl ------> 250-850 ng/dl, which is supposed to be irrelavant to some claims.
    Free T: 6,1 ng/dl ------> 5,8-18 ng/dl, which I find very low. My dad in 60's has more that this.


    I haven't checked again. I finished Protocol and did BW 3 weeks ago. Asuming how I feel, that hasn't improved.

    I am not claiming that I can't conceive on this level of T. It was just an asumption. As I wrote in the posts later, I did sperm count test and it was ok.
    Last edited by Bjorg89; 05-22-2020 at 07:35 AM. Reason: typo

  15. #15
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    I'm copying and pasting this from another thread I just posted on ..

    ""when I got diagnosed with low T like 10 years or so ago .. my total T was 160 ng.dl.. thats pretty damn low. but I had no "low T" symptoms. I fathered 5 children, I ran and built businesses, I had plenty of energy, I ran 5k races in 19 mins,, I bow hunted and hiked across the Rocky Mountains chasing elk and pronghorn down, I slept well , I lifted well,, I was a 'boss' at life, I once shot a 69 at my local golf course, 360 yard drives were common for me,, I built custom drag bikes and raced them with plenty of skill and precision (trusting my mechanical skills at 180 mph)..
    etc etc.. I could go on.

    who would of thought that I had low T.. I had no symptoms. the wife took the morning wood, the mid morning wood, the early afternoon wood, and the evening wood.

    just a random blood test and I decided to check my test and E levels , and found out I had super super low T.

    so I don't know. yeah I got on TRT cause doc told me I should. but I had no symptoms, I felt great. maybe its a very person dependent and individual thing..
    heck maybe 160 ng.dl test was all I really needed in life to function and do all I did. idk ..
    of course now I'm an extremist and will run 1 to 2 grams of test without thinking twice. but I seemed to function just fine with low T


    I guess the main difference was I put on 60 pounds of lean mass.. with low test, I was a skinny cardio bitch. but again I ran sub 6 minute miles and could keep that pace for miles on end..
    now I don't run at all, unless its from the cops""



    I guess its a very individual thing . I have very very low Test levels, but felt and performed very well.
    your levels are over twice what mine were,, yet you have low T symptoms and feel like crap ?

    I wonder if some people, who struggle with "low T" symptoms have other issues going on that may have more to do with dopamine and endorphins etc..
    idk .

    heck you could get on TRT and get your test levels up to say 1100+ . but will you feel any better ? idk
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  16. #16
    Bjorg89 is offline Junior Member
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    Lucky you

    I wonder why you even started TRT...

    How old were you then, if you don't mind me asking?

    Yes, I feel like crap! Is it 100% due to low T? I don't know. But I guess there is a big chance it is.
    I wake up tired, I have no libido, I have no drive to do anything. If I decide to go to the gym, which is very hard, because there is no motivation, I feel even worse the day after. The only reasonable explanation I can give myself is, that I don't have enough Testosterone to recover.

    I eat well and I sleep good. I also don't have stressed life. So not sure where to search for reasons anymore.

    I mean I guess there is not much to lose, if I try TRT. I just don't want to jump on it right away, before I clear some things up.

    First I would like to be sure abot, if there is no chance for me to recover and the second, if it is better to wait with TRT until getting pregnant.

    If I knew those two things now, I would probably work towards getting TRT prescribed, which is also not a simple task, quite the opposite.

  17. #17
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    I think I was 33 when I got on TRT (I'm 43 now)..

    I did my first steroids when I was 17.. though that did not last long. I did lots of research etc. over the years but did not start taking AAS again until I got on TRT.


    of course , looking back now. I'd of starting taking TRT decades ago. and safely using AAS for most my life. they are an enhancer to life and health, imo. when used properly they extend your life and enhance your life.. unfortunately they have been demonized by society because society can't stand alpha males who are healthy and strong.

    so I would advice TRT , no doubt.
    even though I had zero low T symptoms, even though I had very low T levels.. I'd definitely lean towards taking the TRT.
    I like being able to control and manipulate my hormones. based on my own ability, to moderate my dosages . to inject whatever and however much I want one week and change it another week.
    I like the ability to be able to do that based on rational decisions I make for myself.. if I want my test levels at 5000 ng/dl for a month and my estrogen levels off the charts ,, I can do that. if another month I just want my test levels at 600 ng.dl and my estrogen low normal, I can do that too.
    its my choice. I manipulate my own hormones how I see fit. I like having that ability.


    so I would strongly consider TRT and empowering yourself over your own body..


    in the mean time , I would look into taking these supplements..
    Ashwagonda
    L-Tyrosine
    Melatonin
    Zinc
    Magnesium
    Vitamin D


    these can help balance things out in your body and hormonally
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    Bjorg89 is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you on your input and opinion. Let's see what the future has in pocket for me...

    I already use the bolded ones...will google the other two.

    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post


    in the mean time , I would look into taking these supplements..
    Ashwagonda
    L-Tyrosine
    Melatonin
    Zinc
    Magnesium
    Vitamin D



    these can help balance things out in your body and hormonally

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    I'm copying and pasting this from another thread I just posted on ..

    <snip>

    heck you could get on TRT and get your test levels up to say 1100+ . but will you feel any better ? idk
    This is what HRT is all about: how you feel. If you aren't feeling bad, and are able to perform whatever you want to do, then maybe it's ok to be where you are. Numbers don't tell the whole story.

    I would add three OTC supps that you might want to investigate:

    Mucuna Pruriens
    Longjack
    Shilajit

    EDIT: oops sorry I see that I already mentioned two of the three
    Last edited by cylon357; 05-22-2020 at 06:08 PM. Reason: I forget things
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    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    This is what HRT is all about: how you feel. If you aren't feeling bad, and are able to perform whatever you want to do, then maybe it's ok to be where you are. Numbers don't tell the whole story.

    I would add three OTC supps that you might want to investigate:

    Mucuna Pruriens
    Longjack
    Shilajit

    EDIT: oops sorry I see that I already mentioned two of the three
    Is Longjack = eurycoma longifolia? This is what google throws out for longjack. Can't seem to find any legit supplement here anyways.

    Since being in this situation, I have tried tribulus, maca, DAA...

    I have been supplementing Vit D 5000iu, Zinc 30mg, Magnesium 400mg, Omega3 3g for years...recently started Ashwaganda 3g and Vit E 400iu.

    Nothing seems to have any or much impact on my well being

  21. #21
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    Blod Work Results after PCT

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorg89 View Post
    Is Longjack = eurycoma longifolia? This is what google throws out for longjack. Can't seem to find any legit supplement here anyways.

    Since being in this situation, I have tried tribulus, maca, DAA...

    I have been supplementing Vit D 5000iu, Zinc 30mg, Magnesium 400mg, Omega3 3g for years...recently started Ashwaganda 3g and Vit E 400iu.

    Nothing seems to have any or much impact on my well being
    Thatís because it only works when thereís a deficiency. If your diet isnít shit, supplements generally arenít going to do much for you, especially when weíre talking minerals and the like.
    Most of the shit that actually improves things either A: requires a prescription, or B: is flat out illegal.

    ETA: or C: actually does work, but is woefully underdosed in available supplements, and will cost you an arms and a leg to get in pure form to dose yourself.
    Last edited by Gallowmere; 05-23-2020 at 07:21 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorg89 View Post
    Is Longjack = eurycoma longifolia? This is what google throws out for longjack. Can't seem to find any legit supplement here anyways.

    Since being in this situation, I have tried tribulus, maca, DAA...

    I have been supplementing Vit D 5000iu, Zinc 30mg, Magnesium 400mg, Omega3 3g for years...recently started Ashwaganda 3g and Vit E 400iu.

    Nothing seems to have any or much impact on my well being
    Yes, that's the one.

    And creatine. You should add Creatine to your otc arsenal. It's probably one of the most well researched.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    Yes, that's the one.

    And creatine. You should add Creatine to your otc arsenal. It's probably one of the most well researched.
    ok.

    Creatine worked well for me before, but it would fuck up my hair. If one si prone to MPB, then it makes it worse. Saying from experience. Studies say it elevates DHT up to 60%.

    Other then fucking up my hair, it worked well. My pumps were better, I could see some strength and mass gains, but that is now all gone due to low T.

    Not sure if creatine can do much for someone who has a low T.

    I am also watching some TRT videos right now and there are some claims that elevated DHT is bad. Not sure what's that all about...maybe I'm getting it wrong.

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    Examine.com is your friend for info on OTC supps, including Creatine. They usually link out to research articles if there is info on a supp for a use.

    Elevated DHT can make hair loss worse for those predisposed and is implicated in BPH symptoms.

    All that said, I'm going to step back and say that your doc has some pretty good recommends. I would focus on those first. You can add in the OTC stuff if you want... but the doc is prescribing pretty well in this case, I think.

    I will add that even on HRT, Longjack and Mucuna both have an impact on me. Longjack makes me a bit more aggressive, Mucuna gives me the feel goods. I haven't used Shilajit or to be honest, either of the other two, much since being on HRT. Had a great time with the trifecta prior to doc prescribed HRT, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorg89 View Post
    ok.

    Creatine worked well for me before, but it would fuck up my hair. If one si prone to MPB, then it makes it worse. Saying from experience. Studies say it elevates DHT up to 60%.

    Other then fucking up my hair, it worked well. My pumps were better, I could see some strength and mass gains, but that is now all gone due to low T.

    Not sure if creatine can do much for someone who has a low T.

    I am also watching some TRT videos right now and there are some claims that elevated DHT is bad. Not sure what's that all about...maybe I'm getting it wrong.
    Creatine has also been shown to be extremely helpful in many areas regarding brain function.
    It also does the same things for women as it does men, so high testosterone levels arenít required for the physical benefits. No, it isnít going to give you test like results, and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot, but it serves its own function in our biology.
    My n=1, I saw benefits from Creatine monohydrate usage before I knew that I was hypogonadal, and my test levels ranged from 50-160 total before I went on TRT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowmere View Post
    Creatine has also been shown to be extremely helpful in many areas regarding brain function.
    It also does the same things for women as it does men, so high testosterone levels aren’t required for the physical benefits. No, it isn’t going to give you test like results, and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot, but it serves its own function in our biology.
    My n=1, I saw benefits from Creatine monohydrate usage before I knew that I was hypogonadal, and my test levels ranged from 50-160 total before I went on TRT.
    Are you suggesting that companies lie??

    You mean to tell me that BioTest's super special oat extract isn't really as effective as Anavar ?

    My G0d, we really are living in the end of days.



    Just having fun here, obviously. But @Gallowmere raises an excellent point: don't believe the (advertising) hype.
    Last edited by cylon357; 05-23-2020 at 10:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    I think I was 33 when I got on TRT (I'm 43 now)..

    I did my first steroids when I was 17.. though that did not last long. I did lots of research etc. over the years but did not start taking AAS again until I got on TRT.


    of course , looking back now. I'd of starting taking TRT decades ago. and safely using AAS for most my life. they are an enhancer to life and health, imo. when used properly they extend your life and enhance your life.. unfortunately they have been demonized by society because society can't stand alpha males who are healthy and strong.

    so I would advice TRT , no doubt.
    even though I had zero low T symptoms, even though I had very low T levels.. I'd definitely lean towards taking the TRT.
    I like being able to control and manipulate my hormones. based on my own ability, to moderate my dosages . to inject whatever and however much I want one week and change it another week.
    I like the ability to be able to do that based on rational decisions I make for myself.. if I want my test levels at 5000 ng/dl for a month and my estrogen levels off the charts ,, I can do that. if another month I just want my test levels at 600 ng.dl and my estrogen low normal, I can do that too.
    its my choice. I manipulate my own hormones how I see fit. I like having that ability.


    so I would strongly consider TRT and empowering yourself over your own body..


    in the mean time , I would look into taking these supplements..
    Ashwagonda
    L-Tyrosine
    Melatonin
    Zinc
    Magnesium
    Vitamin D


    these can help balance things out in your body and hormonally
    So what is you Protocol, if it is not a secret? Just beeing curious.

    The more research I do, the more I find out, it is not just about Testosterone replacement therapy. There always seem to be other compounds added to optimize the whole hormonal picture...

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