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  1. #1
    Denim165 is offline New Member
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    Doc Sust Karin DD question

    Hello...I was reading an old post where you said you liked Karins DD, and I think you were modifying a shirt with her help. You also stated you haven't worn a Poly shirt since the mid 90's, 1990 for me. My last shirt was a Frantz single ply denim I bought in 1994, I still own the shirt! My last contest was 1998. I'm 5'8", my contest best was a [email protected] my last contest was a very light 165'er with 305. I'm training again after 10 years off.

    I trained the Westside way, and I made my best progress. Never used bands or chains though. I stop lifting as they came in the loop. I never used my bench shirt until the day of the meet, and never had any problems finding my groove, and it fit pretty tight. Are the denim shirts that much different?? By what I read here and other places, it seems that I won't be able to just pull it out the day of the meet. Whats your opion on the differences between the single ply denim shirts of the mid 90's, and the Karins' DD, I mean, how much stronger are they? And what do you feel is the minimum amount of time I can wear a Karins DD in training? I like training raw, no matter what the exercise (boards, floors, etc). I always thought of the shirt as a bonus.

    My goal is a [email protected] a 310 by this coming April.

    thanks, Brian
    Last edited by Denim165; 11-28-2007 at 01:46 PM.

  2. #2
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    ok, that post you read was old. way old, the poly is the way to go!!! the material has improved so much that people are getting more out of single ply poly shirts than double ply denim, i use a double titan katana shirt, is the best poly on the market for its price, the best poly out there is the inzer super phenom(not the regular phenom, but super phenom) this shirt costs ALOT, ryan kenelly just switched over to the shirt and broke the bench press record with a 1036 and 1050 this past wknd, my one training partner was stuck at 800lb press , switched to the phenom, hit 905lbs, another partner was at 715, switched to the super phenom and hit 800lbs. these guys are sponsored by inzer so they get them for free, but if you had to pay for it it would be over $300 . now a stock double katana is about $180- to $200,

    with the new shirts, there is a new technique, elbows in and touch the bar to the top of your stomach, it takes practice and you have to have people teach you how to press like this, you can also buy the metal millitia bench video which would help you learn it as well. what i have found works for me , and keeps me from burning out, is one wk in the shirt next wk raw, next wk in the shirt, etc etc etc.. to become a good shirted lifter, you need to train in the shirt! no way around it. bands and chains help but are just bonuses, it can be done without both, board presses are very important, they are explained in the millitia video.

    i hope this helps

  3. #3
    Denim165 is offline New Member
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    Thumbs up Karin DD ?

    Hi Doc...Thank you for replying! Yep, that was an old post, I think like 2003 or 2004. I found this web page one night, and was reading different posts, going back several years. I can't believe poly's are that strong, but after watching the youtube video of Ryan Kenelly throw up 1050 like nothing, how could a person argue. I can't wait to see one in person, I might try to pick one up used on ebay or another board, just to see if its for me. I can do the expensive shirt thing, but only about once a year. If it works for me, I'll buy a new one. I'll also pick up the metal millitia bench video.

    I'm tall for my class, and have a long distance to press the bar. I'm built to deadlift, which was my best lift. I have my ring fingers on the rings, use an arch, and I usually brought the bar down about 2 inches below nipple level. Bringing the bar so low, and tucking the elbows will be hard to get use to.


    I agree about the chains & bands, but I'll try them down the road. That sucks I need to train in the shirt so much, I have a power rack, plenty of weight, and a set of pro dumbells, but need help with the shirt. Looks like i should have used Poly165!

    thanks again, Brian
    Last edited by Denim165; 12-04-2007 at 10:51 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denim165 View Post
    Hi Doc...Thank you for replying! Yep, that was an old post, I think like 2003 or 2004. I found this sight one night, and was reading different posts, going back several years. I can't believe poly's are that strong, but after watching the youtube video of Ryan Kenelly throw up 1050 like nothing, how could a person argue. I can't wait to see one in person, I might try to pick one up used on ebay or another board, just to see if its for me. I can do the expensive shirt thing, but only about once a year. If it works for me, I'll buy a new one. I'll also pick up the metal millitia bench video.

    I'm tall for my class, and have a long distance to press the bar. I'm built to deadlift, which was my best lift. I have my ring fingers on the rings, use an arch, and I usually brought the bar down about 2 inches below nipple level. Bringing the bar so low, and tucking the elbows will be hard to get use to.


    I agree about the chains & bands, but I'll try them down the road. That sucks I need to train in the shirt so much, I have a power rack, plenty of weight, and a set of pro dumbells, but need help with the shirt. Looks like i should have used Poly165!

    thanks again, Brian
    move your grip out to pointer fingers on the rings, ihave the same build you do, i am built to dead, but i can press alot because i cut my travel distance to a minum, a good arch with a wide grip will make you an excellent bencher. the milliti video will show you, go to www.fortified-iron.com you can find used shirts in the classified section, any questions on shirt sizing, just ask me and i will help.

    kenelly was a denim guy, now look what he is doing in poly! amazing, i have seen it even frist hand myself with lifters on my team and myself, when i switched from karin to the titan double f6 i had a huge jump in weight i could press.

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    Denim165 is offline New Member
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    move your grip out to pointer fingers on the rings, i have the same build you do, i am built to dead, but i can press alot because i cut my travel distance to a minum, a good arch with a wide grip will make you an excellent bencher. the milliti video will show you, go to www.fortified-iron.com you can find used shirts in the classified section, any questions on shirt sizing, just ask me and i will help.

    kenelly was a denim guy, now look what he is doing in poly! amazing, i have seen it even frist hand myself with lifters on my team and myself, when i switched from karin to the titan double f6 i had a huge jump in weight i could press.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I do 10 sets of 3 reps. 4 sets are very close, with the side of my index finger just touching smooth part on bar. 4 sets are taken out about 3.5 inches from the smooth part, and 3 sets are with index finger on rings. I rotate the sets as I go, close,med,wide, repeat, repeat again, end with the close grip set last. My last sets seem faster then my first few. Tomorrow I'm going to try and hit a single with 80% using the wide grip. One thing about going wide, at least for me, you have to hit it just right. I do use a good arch, and never was lighted for lifting my ass, over a span of around 35 meets.

    After that, i usually do JM presses, barbell tri's to throat/chin, & plate raises.

    That site you posted is cool, I even found a great post on cutting weight.

    My only problem I've seen so far, is with ordering the poly from Inzer. They ask your bicep measurement, but nothing on the lenth of your bicep/arm. I'm sure like you, the distance between my shoulder and elbow is longer then most. I remember my poly shirt being too short in the arms. I'm still going to pick up a used shirt, but wait until I'm stronger & know what weight class I'll be in for sure before spending the big bucks for new.

    thanks, Brian
    Last edited by Denim165; 12-06-2007 at 12:50 AM.

  6. #6
    hauss man is offline Member
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    i wouldn't go with inzer, they're gear is notorious for not lasting very long

    i would go with a single ply katana

  7. #7
    Denim165 is offline New Member
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    Talking

    Doc said the same thing, it must be a good shirt. I will have to see if you can order a Katana with longer arms, but I have a feeling when he pointed out "stock", that means they are ready to ship. When I was referring to inzer, it was about the phenom. thanks, Brian

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    hauss man is offline Member
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    the phenom is an advanced shirt

    and judging from your goals you posted, i would stick with a single ply

    the lightest i can touch in my single ply katana is 415

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    Denim165 is offline New Member
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    the phenom is an advanced shirt

    and judging from your goals you posted, i would stick with a single ply

    the lightest i can touch in my single ply katana is 415
    Today 01:56 AM
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I hear you, I guess I'm just trying to see everything. I just saw some pretty up close pics of the Katana, and it looks way different then the old poly's. And they asked for flex arm measurements, I was wondering. Glad to know this when looking for a used. I spotted a used one on that board Doc posted. That is what I'm going to do, the A/S model.

    Hey hauss, whats your bench? Did you order a shirt tighter then normal? What kind of carry over numbers do most get from this shirt? Man, they off a 12 month blow out / 18 month run guarantee....that is great!

    thanks, Brian
    Last edited by Denim165; 12-06-2007 at 01:17 AM.

  10. #10
    hauss man is offline Member
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    415 at 198 in single ply is my best competiton lift, as i am still trying to figure out my double ply f6

    and all of my shirts are hand me downs from my training partners

  11. #11
    Denim165 is offline New Member
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    415, pretty nice! You must have some stress on openers, I mean just getting the dam bar to touch! And that is with a used shirt, man. It sounds like half is training, and half is finding just the right shirt/groove.
    Last edited by Denim165; 12-06-2007 at 01:37 AM.

  12. #12
    hauss man is offline Member
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    im still a junior and haven't been competing for very long but i always trained heavy

    it can be very stressful finding something you can touch and then having the power to lock it out

    equipped lifting is a whole different world

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denim165 View Post
    Doc said the same thing, it must be a good shirt. I will have to see if you can order a Katana with longer arms, but I have a feeling when he pointed out "stock", that means they are ready to ship. When I was referring to inzer, it was about the phenom. thanks, Brian
    dont worry about the length of the arms. the shirts come longer in the arms than they should,(both inzer and titan do the same thing) when i get my shirts customized i have to get them to take an extra inch of the arms and remmebr i have long arms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Denim165 View Post
    415, pretty nice! You must have some stress on openers, I mean just getting the dam bar to touch! And that is with a used shirt, man. It sounds like half is training, and half is finding just the right shirt/groove.
    the shirt is a whole other variable. once you learn the shirt, touching isnt bad, you can still mis groove a rep, but you get better with practice, this is why you need to train more with the shirt on these days. it is a whole different movement than a raw press

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denim165 View Post
    the phenom is an advanced shirt

    and judging from your goals you posted, i would stick with a single ply

    the lightest i can touch in my single ply katana is 415
    Today 01:56 AM
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I hear you, I guess I'm just trying to see everything. I just saw some pretty up close pics of the Katana, and it looks way different then the old poly's. And they asked for flex arm measurements, I was wondering. Glad to know this when looking for a used. I spotted a used one on that board Doc posted. That is what I'm going to do, the A/S model.

    Hey hauss, whats your bench? Did you order a shirt tighter then normal? What kind of carry over numbers do most get from this shirt? Man, they off a 12 month blow out / 18 month run guarantee....that is great!

    thanks, Brian
    give me you chest measurment relaxed, if you can tel me that, i can tell you what, trust me, nobody know more about th sizing of titan shits than i do from my mistakes

  16. #16
    Doc.Sust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hauss man View Post
    the phenom is an advanced shirt

    and judging from your goals you posted, i would stick with a single ply

    the lightest i can touch in my single ply katana is 415
    the regular phenom isnt an advanced shirt, a monkey could use it, the super phenom is an advanced shirt, this is the one all the big boys of the sport are using, to be honest, the super phenom is easy to learn and use, it has a very forgiving groove, more friendly than any other shirt i have seen, i dont believe any shirt is to advanced to learn for anyone, as long as the sizing is right you can master any shirt, for those with less experience, use a bigger shirt, those with more experience can use a smaller shirt, but trust me there is a limit to how small of shirt one can use, too small can be a recipe for bombing in a meet

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    hauss man is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc.Sust View Post
    the regular phenom isnt an advanced shirt, a monkey could use it, the super phenom is an advanced shirt, this is the one all the big boys of the sport are using, to be honest, the super phenom is easy to learn and use, it has a very forgiving groove, more friendly than any other shirt i have seen, i dont believe any shirt is to advanced to learn for anyone, as long as the sizing is right you can master any shirt, for those with less experience, use a bigger shirt, those with more experience can use a smaller shirt, but trust me there is a limit to how small of shirt one can use, too small can be a recipe for bombing in a meet
    you think he can touch 310 in a phenom?

    you may be right, i dont have any experience with phenoms, but from my experince he should start out with a single ply because 2 ply was a whole new world for me

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    Denim165 is offline New Member
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    give me you chest measurment relaxed, if you can tel me that, i can tell you what, trust me, nobody know more about th sizing of titan shits than i do from my mistakes
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Chest 41", around shoulders about 49". I believe you about the mistake thing, I see nothing wrong with learn from your mistakes, lol..but honestly, I respect your opinion more, as we both are built to deadlift. I've found the best information is to ask a person who has a structure like yours.

    My goal of the [email protected] was based on using the same shirt I bought in 1994, just a new one. But as I know now, shirts have changed. I'm guessing I can count on an addition 10 or so pounds over the Frantz single ply I wore before.

    thanks doc....Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by hauss man View Post
    you think he can touch 310 in a phenom?

    you may be right, i dont have any experience with phenoms, but from my experince he should start out with a single ply because 2 ply was a whole new world for me
    absolutely. i used a duper phenom even and i was able to touch 315 and i can press around 600 these days, my friend who is a 900lb bencher can touch 495 in his super phenom. it is weird but you can touch easy in the shirt and still get a ton of pop off the chest through lockout. i went right from raw to double ply and i learned it. it wasnt something i got the first time. but i did it in afew wks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Denim165 View Post
    give me you chest measurment relaxed, if you can tel me that, i can tell you what, trust me, nobody know more about th sizing of titan shits than i do from my mistakes
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Chest 41", around shoulders about 49". I believe you about the mistake thing, I see nothing wrong with learn from your mistakes, lol..but honestly, I respect your opinion more, as we both are built to deadlift. I've found the best information is to ask a person who has a structure like yours.

    My goal of the [email protected] was based on using the same shirt I bought in 1994, just a new one. But as I know now, shirts have changed. I'm guessing I can count on an addition 10 or so pounds over the Frantz single ply I wore before.

    thanks doc....Brian
    you will get MUCH more than just 10 lbs!

    in the katana. single ply size 42 .if double ply size. if you get a double. do NOT get it grid stiched. it will be to much for you. if you get the shirt and you cant get in it because it feels to tight, i will help teach you how to break it in. if you decide to go with a phenom, i cant help you because inzers sizing chart is WAY off. best bet is to get a phenom made custom because the stock sizes are based off shoulder measurments and arent correct at all. they run the shirts to large

  21. #21
    Denim165 is offline New Member
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    Katana

    you will get MUCH more than just 10 lbs!

    in the katana. single ply size 42 .if double ply size. if you get a double. do NOT get it grid stiched. it will be to much for you. if you get the shirt and you cant get in it because it feels to tight, i will help teach you how to break it in. if you decide to go with a phenom, i cant help you because inzers sizing chart is WAY off. best bet is to get a phenom made custom because the stock sizes are based off shoulder measurments and arent correct at all. they run the shirts to large
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I plan to buy the single ply Katana. I did notice a couple federations banning 2-ply, and I want to compete in a few different organizations. I've read several good reviews on it. Maybe a 2 ply with grid down the road.

    Its not too much, and at about $150'ish, I can afford to buy two a year...plus they are backed up by Titan for 12 months against blow out, 18 months against runs. I did spot this URL http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/5887 Person claimed to have a 225 raw bench, 259 with the old blast shirt, and 324 with the Katana! That is freaking crazy!!
    Last edited by Denim165; 12-12-2007 at 12:52 AM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denim165 View Post
    you will get MUCH more than just 10 lbs!

    in the katana. single ply size 42 .if double ply size. if you get a double. do NOT get it grid stiched. it will be to much for you. if you get the shirt and you cant get in it because it feels to tight, i will help teach you how to break it in. if you decide to go with a phenom, i cant help you because inzers sizing chart is WAY off. best bet is to get a phenom made custom because the stock sizes are based off shoulder measurments and arent correct at all. they run the shirts to large
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I plan to buy the single ply Katana. I did notice a couple federations banning 2-ply, and I want to compete in a few different organizations. I've read several good reviews on it. Maybe a 2 ply with grid down the road.

    Its not too much, and at about $150'ish, I can afford to buy two a year...plus they are backed up by Titan for 12 months against blow out, 18 months against runs. I did spot this URL http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/5887 Person claimed to have a 225 raw bench, 259 with the old blast shirt, and 324 with the Katana! That is freaking crazy!!
    ha you think that is good, my training arner can press about 500-550 raw and can press 900 with a shirt. some people get a huge carryover from the shirt, i get about 200lbs myself, my best raw press is 425, my best shirt press has been 600lbs

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    Denim165 is offline New Member
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    Hey Doc....I've been draging my feet on ordering a Katana. I finally decided to go with the double. Just one thing, I notice they have a open back now....whats your thought on that? I know no grid stiched, but should I make any other custom requests? thanks, Brian

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    i love open back, all my shirts are open back, one more time before you order, what is your chest size? what size shirt do you want to order? i want to make sure we sizes this right

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    Denim165 is offline New Member
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    It seems it would be easier to put on (open back w/velcro). Relaxed measurements, chest is 41", shoulders 49", and arms are 12.5" relaxed, 14.5" flexed (I have longer arms). I was thinking 42, but was giving 40 some thought. And I wondered if the shirt would be that much better if I had it custom made to my measurements, or would I just be better off picking a stock size, and have some type of alteration. And if so, please state what they are, I think you talked about taking off length in the arm. Can you order a shirt with the alterations? I just worry the arms won't be tight as my arms are on the small side. I think I saw the open backs for sale by painclinic.com, something like that.

    thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Denim165 View Post
    It seems it would be easier to put on (open back w/velcro). Relaxed measurements, chest is 41", shoulders 49", and arms are 12.5" relaxed, 14.5" flexed (I have longer arms). I was thinking 42, but was giving 40 some thought. And I wondered if the shirt would be that much better if I had it custom made to my measurements, or would I just be better off picking a stock size, and have some type of alteration. And if so, please state what they are, I think you talked about taking off length in the arm. Can you order a shirt with the alterations? I just worry the arms won't be tight as my arms are on the small side. I think I saw the open backs for sale by painclinic.com, something like that.

    thanks
    the stock sizes are how i order them. i take the shirt to a tailor after i get them to open the back up and slap some velcro on it. you can get titan to do it, but it takes FOREVER!!! that is why i dont even bother with the custom. i had a custom and a stock 46. there was just about no difference in the shirts. i just did that with one shirt. been waiting 5 fcuking wks for the shirt to come back! always better off going bigger. if you go small. no way to fix it. when i wore the f6 shirt, i used a stock 46. perfect fit! went to katana. i tried a custom 44 with 46 arms. too small, never got anything to touch, went to a stock 46, arms fit but still too small in the chest. now i am going with 46 arms and a 48 chest. my size hasnt changed in the past 2-3 years. it is just the katana material is SO much stronger that you need a little more room in the chest. it is trial and error. titans rule of thumb is to go up 2 shirt sizes for double. you would use a 40 in single ply, so 2 sizes would be the 44 but the arms would be too big. but a 44 chest with 42 arms would probably be your best shot or just getting the custom. if you do get a custom. if it is to big they will alter once for free to fix it if it is to large. now if you go to small, u are screwed. yes you will have to wait, and they will charge more but it is better than going through what i had to by trying 3 different shirts. if i would have just went custom in the first place. probably would have saved me overall more time and money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Denim165 View Post
    It seems it would be easier to put on (open back w/velcro). Relaxed measurements, chest is 41", shoulders 49", and arms are 12.5" relaxed, 14.5" flexed (I have longer arms). I was thinking 42, but was giving 40 some thought. And I wondered if the shirt would be that much better if I had it custom made to my measurements, or would I just be better off picking a stock size, and have some type of alteration. And if so, please state what they are, I think you talked about taking off length in the arm. Can you order a shirt with the alterations? I just worry the arms won't be tight as my arms are on the small side. I think I saw the open backs for sale by painclinic.com, something like that.

    thanks
    the stock sizes are how i order them. i take the shirt to a tailor after i get them to open the back up and slap some velcro on it. you can get titan to do it, but it takes FOREVER!!! that is why i dont even bother with the custom. i had a custom and a stock 46. there was just about no difference in the shirts. i just did that with one shirt. been waiting 5 fcuking wks for the shirt to come back! always better off going bigger. if you go small. no way to fix it. when i wore the f6 shirt, i used a stock 46. perfect fit! went to katana. i tried a custom 44 with 46 arms. too small, never got anything to touch, went to a stock 46, arms fit but still too small in the chest. now i am going with 46 arms and a 48 chest. my size hasnt changed in the past 2-3 years. it is just the katana material is SO much stronger that you need a little more room in the chest. it is trial and error. titans rule of thumb is to go up 2 shirt sizes for double. you would use a 40 in single ply, so 2 sizes would be the 44 but the arms would be too big. but a 44 chest with 42 arms would probably be your best shot or just getting the custom. if you do get a custom. if it is to big they will alter once for free to fix it if it is to large. now if you go to small, u are screwed. yes you will have to wait, and they will charge more but it is better than going through what i had to by trying 3 different shirts. if i would have just went custom in the first place. probably would have saved me overall more time and money.

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