Free Diet advice by Narkissos & Novastepp: Intro to Performance Nutrition 101

[Narkissos]

Hello AR... Narkissos here.

I figure that most of you know me.

Some...from my years here.

Some...as my clients.

Others, having followed my articles 'elsewhere'.

Those of you that have been around for a while know that I specialize in training and nutrition... with specific emphasis on contest prep.

Those of you who've worked with me know that my approach to dieting differs significantly to the norm on the boards.

This thread serves to supply free dieting advice based on what I have tested and applied many times over on clients.

I do not subscribe to the pro/fat school of dieting... Ergo, I will be representing a higher-carb approach.

Novastepp will be assisting in this regard...as his views on dieting are similar to my own...

...Similar... but dissimilar as well.

On this thread you'll get no-nonsense advice...from two points of view.

A warning beforehand... Leave your ego at the door

Nark and Nova are primed to rock this joint!!!

-CNS

[Beefkake31]

When you say higher carb approach, exactly how high Nark?

For instance I am going to do my cutting diet in the next week or two , I'm 5'11 , 215 pounds, 14% bodyfat (water tested) ,26 years old, my maintenance calories are 3,300 calories a day. I want to do about 2,900 a day spaced out to about 500 calories a meal , 6 meals and throw in some cardio eod. So based on that information what is a good ratio for my 2,900 calories a day. I was going to do close to 50% protein , 25% fat (efa's mostly) and 25% carbs (low GI like oatmeal, yams, sweet potato).

So was thinking of doing 375 g protein (1500 calories) , 200 g carb (800 calories), and 70 g fat (630 calories). So close to 2,900 calories. Is this similar to the high carb approach you are talking about, or do you suggest even higher?

I'm confident in my knowledge of diet but I didn't wanna overlook anything that you might see and my ocd says I need reassurance from someone thats been in the game a long time.

If you need more info let me know like exact meals but I just wanna make sure my ratio is ok for my body (m e s o morph) and stats. And do you think it's possible to gain size still with 400 calories below maintenance with heavy lifting still.

[novastepp]

When you say higher carb approach, exactly how high Nark?

For instance I am going to do my cutting diet in the next week or two , I'm 5'11 , 215 pounds, 14% bodyfat (water tested) ,26 years old, my maintenance calories are 3,300 calories a day. I want to do about 2,900 a day spaced out to about 500 calories a meal , 6 meals and throw in some cardio eod. So based on that information what is a good ratio for my 2,900 calories a day. I was going to do close to 50% protein , 25% fat (efa's mostly) and 25% carbs (low GI like oatmeal, yams, sweet potato).

So was thinking of doing 375 g protein (1500 calories) , 200 g carb (800 calories), and 70 g fat (630 calories). So close to 2,900 calories. Is this similar to the high carb approach you are talking about, or do you suggest even higher?

I'm confident in my knowledge of diet but I didn't wanna overlook anything that you might see and my ocd says I need reassurance from someone thats been in the game a long time.

If you need more info let me know like exact meals but I just wanna make sure my ratio is ok for my body (m e s o morph) and stats. And do you think it's possible to gain size still with 400 calories below maintenance with heavy lifting still.

depending highly on where your fats come from, it wouldn't be necessary to cut with that amount. your caloric needs are similar to mine but you should really develop your diet plan around your LBM. figure that by subtracting your body fat (many would see more success in dieting if they got their body fat tested or received a reputable guess from someone). i'm guessing slightly above the 2500 calorie number???

a different approach would involve cycling your cabs higher and lower nearly everyday. this takes planning, but on higher days you would probably be around the 400g area and on lower days you may sink below 200g. for example... on your higher carbs days if you consumed just 400g of carbs and 200g of protein that would put you around the 2400 calorie mark, and the amount of fat present in your lean meats would put you over the 2500 mark for that day. therefore, if you slightly tweak the amounts of carbs and proteins on other days your body will constantly be stressed and be forced to work your own body fat into the mix. preservation of muscle mass and fat loss can occur simultaneously, and in my experience a pro/carb diet does this most effectively.

if you do see the need to substitute fats, you could eat a pro/fat meal before bed, but it isn't as necessary as some believe. this higher carb/carb cycling approach also does wonders for you in the gym. on higher days it is a good idea to hit the gym. your workouts shouldn't suffer as many do during cutters due to the lack of energy. this will help you preserve size and maintain strength. previously i have cut for a straight six weeks using this approach and have gained strength in many of my lifts during that time. it also PRIMES you for bulking since you don't have subsequent loss of strength.

[ChuckLee]

Ohhhh finally what all dieters was waiting for!!!!!
What do someone need more than some free diet advices from two of the best diet mentors in AR???
You are both some of the good guys

Great thread, truly

CL

[novastepp]

Ohhhh finally what all dieters was waiting for!!!!!
What do someone need more than some free diet advices from two of the best diet mentors in AR???
You are both some of the good guys

Great thread, truly

CL

we hope so.

[Prada]

Good stuff.

[ecto9]

Rock on brothers... I'm in...

[Narkissos]

When you say higher carb approach, exactly how high Nark?

At the core of the diet?

45% of total calories.

This shifts to 35% during times of carb cycling.

...but 45% at core.

For instance I am going to do my cutting diet in the next week or two , I'm 5'11 , 215 pounds, 14% bodyfat (water tested) ,26 years old, my maintenance calories are 3,300 calories a day. I want to do about 2,900 a day spaced out to about 500 calories a meal , 6 meals and throw in some cardio eod.

You calculated your maintenance as 3,300?

I'm assuming you used the HB formula... as opposed to the KM formula... correct?

i.e. your calculations are based on total weight and activity as opposed to lean weight. Yes?

Clarify this before I comment on your kcals further... Thanks.

So based on that information what is a good ratio for my 2,900 calories a day. I was going to do close to 50% protein , 25% fat (efa's mostly) and 25% carbs (low GI like oatmeal, yams, sweet potato).

1. Why so much fat?
2. Why these ratios?

So was thinking of doing 375 g protein (1500 calories) , 200 g carb (800 calories), and 70 g fat (630 calories). So close to 2,900 calories. Is this similar to the high carb approach you are talking about, or do you suggest even higher?

Higher.

Lower fat slightly.. Lower Protein slightly.. Increase carbs slightly.

When stagnation is reached... either go tru a depletion phase, or implement carb cycling.

Protein is kept constant during either protocol.

I'm confident in my knowledge of diet but I didn't wanna overlook anything that you might see and my ocd says I need reassurance from someone thats been in the game a long time.

Well... you do seem quite competent.

But there're always alternative approaches.

Consistency is a word used a lot in this sport/lifestyle...

Used mainly with regard to sticking to a set path.

This is a limited use of the term however... because w/ regard to performance-mediated dieting, 'consistency' addresses the consistent (for lack of a better word) application of change... to stay ahead of the progressive-developmental curve.

If you need more info let me know like exact meals but I just wanna make sure my ratio is ok for my body (m e s o morph) and stats. And do you think it's possible to gain size still with 400 calories below maintenance with heavy lifting still.

We'll address this later in the thread.

I'll state from the beginning however that I don't believe in 'sub-maintenance' type diets.

Food intake is directly co-related to performance.

Ergo, sub-maintenance diets negatively effect performance.

Drops in performance equate to drops in lean tissue.

An over-simplification on my part... but a reality.

Food intake is the last factor i manipulate when i'm cutting.

-CNS

[goose]

Rock on......very kind of you,Nark is a master in this niche,the daddy.

Apart from BCCA,do you use any other amino acids in your weaponry?

[Narkissos]

Rock on......very kind of you,Nark is a master in this niche,the daddy.

Thanks for the kind words buddy.

Apart from BCCA,do you use any other amino acids in your weaponry?

No.

Outside of BCAAs, I've use straight (full-spectrum) aminos + dessicated liver during contest prep... but no individual aminos.

I'm looking in to Leucine... But I cannot comment on it as yet, because I haven't been able to do a controlled study on myself.

I have one client currently running it pre and post workout... So, stay tuned.

-CNS

[novastepp]

Thanks for the kind words buddy.



No.

Outside of BCAAs, I've use straight (full-spectrum) aminos + dessicated liver during contest prep... but no individual aminos.

I'm looking in to Leucine... But I cannot comment on it as yet, because I haven't been able to do a controlled study on myself.

I have one client currently running it pre and post workout... So, stay tuned.

-CNS

i can't quote word for word because i don't remember exactly waht was said, but I believe Giants11 had a study that leucine may be able to begin some of the protein synthesis processes by itself. i'll get a hold of him ad ask him for it, or at least the abstract that contained that info.

[Narkissos]

i can't quote word for word because i don't remember exactly waht was said, but I believe Giants11 had a study that leucine may be able to begin some of the protein synthesis processes by itself. i'll get a hold of him ad ask him for it, or at least the abstract that contained that info.

Yea I've read the literature.. That's what piqued my interest.

Well that, and having read some respected opinions on it.

..Namely those of, the now retired Steroid.com vet, Pinnacle...and later on, that of Layne Norton.

I believe Layne's thesis/publication was on this.

Feel free to post the Abstract when you get it.

I'm sure many of the guys here will be very interested.

-CNS

[Narkissos]

Feel free to post the Abstract when you get it.

I'm sure many of the guys here will be very interested.

-CNS

Ah... why wait?


Leucine Regulates Translation Initiation of Protein Synthesis in Skeletal Muscle after Exercise
Layne E. Norton and Donald K. Layman

High-performance physical activity and postexercise recovery lead to significant changes in amino acid and protein metabolism in skeletal muscle. Central to these changes is an increase in the metabolism of the BCAA leucine.

During exercise, muscle protein synthesis decreases together with a net increase in protein degradation and stimulation of BCAA oxidation. The decrease in protein synthesis is associated with inhibition of translation initiation factors 4E and 4G and ribosomal protein S6 under regulatory controls of intracellular insulin signaling and leucine concentrations.

BCAA oxidation increases through activation of the branched-chain {alpha}-keto acid dehydrogenase (BCKDH). BCKDH activity increases with exercise, reducing plasma and intracellular leucine concentrations. After exercise, recovery of muscle protein synthesis requires dietary protein or BCAA to increase tissue levels of leucine in order to release the inhibition of the initiation factor 4 complex through activation of the protein kinase mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR).

Leucine's effect on mTOR is synergistic with insulin via the phosphoinositol 3-kinase signaling pathway. Together, insulin and leucine allow skeletal muscle to coordinate protein synthesis with physiological state and dietary intake.

[Narkissos]

Ah... why wait?


Leucine Regulates Translation Initiation of Protein Synthesis in Skeletal Muscle after Exercise
Layne E. Norton and Donald K. Layman

High-performance physical activity and postexercise recovery lead to significant changes in amino acid and protein metabolism in skeletal muscle. Central to these changes is an increase in the metabolism of the BCAA leucine.

During exercise, muscle protein synthesis decreases together with a net increase in protein degradation and stimulation of BCAA oxidation. The decrease in protein synthesis is associated with inhibition of translation initiation factors 4E and 4G and ribosomal protein S6 under regulatory controls of intracellular insulin signaling and leucine concentrations.

BCAA oxidation increases through activation of the branched-chain {alpha}-keto acid dehydrogenase (BCKDH). BCKDH activity increases with exercise, reducing plasma and intracellular leucine concentrations. After exercise, recovery of muscle protein synthesis requires dietary protein or BCAA to increase tissue levels of leucine in order to release the inhibition of the initiation factor 4 complex through activation of the protein kinase mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR).

Leucine's effect on mTOR is synergistic with insulin via the phosphoinositol 3-kinase signaling pathway. Together, insulin and leucine allow skeletal muscle to coordinate protein synthesis with physiological state and dietary intake.

^^This study was then referenced in other studies.

One of particular interest is this one:


Orally Administered Leucine Enhances Protein Synthesis in Skeletal Muscle of Diabetic Rats in the Absence of Increases in 4E-BP1 or S6K1 Phosphorylation

Joshua C. Anthony, Ali K. Reiter, Tracy G. Anthony, Stephen J. Crozier, Charles H. Lang, David A. MacLean, Scot R. Kimball, and Leonard S. Jefferson


In this study, food-deprived (18 h) control rats and rats with alloxan-induced diabetes were orally administered saline or the amino acid leucine to assess whether it regulates protein synthesis independently of a change in serum insulin concentrations. Immediately after leucine administration, diabetic rats were infused with insulin (0.0, 4.0, or 20 pmol · min-1 · kg-1) for 1 h to examine the role of the hormone in the protein synthetic response to leucine.

In control rats, leucine stimulated protein synthesis by 58% and increased phosphorylation of the translational repressor, eukaryotic initiation factor (eIF) 4E-binding protein (BP)-1, 4E-BP1, fivefold. Consequently, association of the mRNA cap-binding protein eukaryotic initiation factor (eIF)4E with 4E-BP1 was reduced to 50% of control values, and eIF4G•eIF4E complex assembly was increased 80%.

Furthermore, leucine increased the phosphorylation of the 70-kDa ribosomal protein S6 (rp S6) and the ribosomal protein S6 kinase (S6K1). Diabetes attenuated protein synthesis compared with control rats.

Nonetheless, in diabetic rats, leucine increased protein synthesis by 53% without concomitant changes in the phosphorylation of 4E-BP1 or S6K1. Skeletal muscle protein synthesis was stimulated in diabetic rats infused with insulin, but rates of synthesis remained less than values in nondiabetic controls that were administered leucine.

Phosphorylation of 4E-BP1 and S6K1 was increased in diabetic rats infused with insulin in a dose-dependent manner, and the response was enhanced by leucine. The results suggest that leucine enhances protein synthesis in skeletal muscle through both insulin-dependent and -independent mechanisms.

The insulin-dependent mechanism is associated with increased phosphorylation of 4E-BP1 and S6K1. In contrast, the insulin-independent effect on protein synthesis is mediated by an unknown mechanism.

[Polska]

Food intake is the last factor i manipulate when i'm cutting.

-CNS

Nark, so you would recommend not dropping below maintenance calories while cutting and just mainly manipulating macros to save (and even possibly add more) lean tissue?

[Narkissos]

For additional reading on BCAAs and Leucine (as well as the use of food substrates in performance nutrition)... refer to these studies:

Bassit, R. Branched-chain amino acid supplementation and the immune response of long-distance athletes. 2002.

Blomstrand, E. Branched-chain amino acids activate key enzymes in protein synthesis after physical exercise. 2006.

Crowe, M. Effects of dietary leucine supplementation on exercise performance. 2006.

Juhn, M. Popular Sports Supplements and Ergogenic Aids. 2003.

Layman, D. The Role of Leucine in Weight Loss Diets and Glucose Homeostasis. 2003.

Manninen, A. Hyperinsulinaemia, hyperaminoacidaemia and post-exercise muscle anabolism: the search for the optimal recovery drink. 2006.

Mero, A. Leucine Supplementation and Intensive Training. 1999.

Schwenk, T. When Food Becomes A Drug: Nonanabolic Nutritional Supplement Use in Athletes. 2003.

Shimomura, Y. Exercise promotes BCAA catabolism: effects of BCAA supplementation on skeletal muscle during exercise. 2004.



...where accessible of course.

-CNS

[Johny-too-small]

Sup bros?

Ive been playing around A LOT with diets. I came up with this and am hoping to drop 2lbs a week on it.

Please rip away, hahaha:

CALS PRO CHO FAT
MEAL 1:
1 Cup Oats 300 10 54 5
1 Tbs Olive Oil 120 0 0 14
1 Cup Egg Whites 88 24 4 0
1/2 Scoop Whey 60 12 1.5 0.5

MEAL 2:
1 Cup Oats 300 10 54 5
1 Tbs Olive Oil 120 0 0 14
6oz Tuna 175 37.5 0 2.5

MEAL 3: PWO
1.5 Scoops Whey 180 36 4.5 1.5
1 Banana 138 1.5 35 1
1oz Whole Almonds 160 6 6 14
1/2 Cup Oats 150 5 27 2.5

MEAL 4: PPWO
6oz Tuna 175 37.5 0 2.5
1 Tbs Olive Oil 120 0 0 14
1 Cup Rice 200 5 45 0

MEAL 5:
4oz Chicken Breast 125 25 0 0.5
1oz Whole Almonds 160 6 6 14



Totals: 2571 215.5 237 91

[Narkissos]

Sup bros?

Ive been playing around A LOT with diets. I came up with this and am hoping to drop 2lbs a week on it.

Please rip away, hahaha:

CALS PRO CHO FAT
MEAL 1:
1 Cup Oats 300 10 54 5
1 Tbs Olive Oil 120 0 0 14
1 Cup Egg Whites 88 24 4 0
1/2 Scoop Whey 60 12 1.5 0.5

MEAL 2:
1 Cup Oats 300 10 54 5
1 Tbs Olive Oil 120 0 0 14
6oz Tuna 175 37.5 0 2.5

MEAL 3: PWO
1.5 Scoops Whey 180 36 4.5 1.5
1 Banana 138 1.5 35 1
1oz Whole Almonds 160 6 6 14
1/2 Cup Oats 150 5 27 2.5

MEAL 4: PPWO
6oz Tuna 175 37.5 0 2.5
1 Tbs Olive Oil 120 0 0 14
1 Cup Rice 200 5 45 0

MEAL 5:
4oz Chicken Breast 125 25 0 0.5
1oz Whole Almonds 160 6 6 14



Totals: 2571 215.5 237 91

age?

weight?

bodyfat percentage?

daily activity?

duration of training sessions?

Type of training undertaken?

Those numbers which you've provided alone mean nothing.

-CNS

[abbot138]

Ok, sorry to high-jack a bit here. So are you guys saying to use LBM when calculating maintenance calories?

[Narkissos]

Ok, sorry to high-jack a bit here. So are you guys saying to use, LBM when calculating maintenance calories?

Yes.

Fat is metabolically active to a very minor degree.

Ergo it would be erroneous to calculate your caloric requirements by factoring in pounds and pounds of non-contributory tissue.**

-CNS




**NB: This (re: fat being 'non-contributory') is another over-simplification on my part. It serves to augment an easy explanation of this argument's core concepts.

[Narkissos]

Yes.

Fat is metabolically active to a very minor degree.

Ergo it would be erroneous to calculate your caloric requirements by factoring in pounds and pounds of non-contributory tissue.**

-CNS


**NB: This (re: fat being 'non-contributory') is another over-simplification on my part. It serves to augment an easy explanation of this argument's core concepts.

For reference:

The Harris-Benedict formula calculates BMR based on total body weight

BMR:

Men: BMR = 66 + (13.7 X wt in kg) + (5 X ht in cm) - (6.8 X age in years)

Women: BMR = 655 + (9.6 X wt in kg) + (1.8 X ht in cm) - (4.7 X age in years)

Then, using the BMR, the TDEE is calculated...using an activity multiplier:

Activity Multiplier:

Sedentary = BMR X 1.2 (little or no exercise, desk job)
Lightly active = BMR X 1.375 (light exercise/sports 1-3 days/wk)
Mod. active = BMR X 1.55 (moderate exercise/sports 3-5 days/wk)
Very active = BMR X 1.725 (hard exercise/sports 6-7 days/wk)
Extr. active = BMR X 1.9 (hard daily exercise/sports & physical job or 2X day training)

**That being said... we use the Katch-McArdle Formula**



The Katch-McArdle formula calculates BMR based on lean body weight.

BMR:

BMR (men and women) = 370 + (21.6 X lean mass in kg)


Then, using the BMR, TDEE is calculated using the activity multiplier:

Activity Multiplier:

Sedentary = BMR X 1.2 (little or no exercise, desk job)
Lightly active = BMR X 1.375 (light exercise/sports 1-3 days/wk)
Mod. active = BMR X 1.55 (moderate exercise/sports 3-5 days/wk)
Very active = BMR X 1.725 (hard exercise/sports 6-7 days/wk)
Extr. active = BMR X 1.9 (hard daily exercise/sports & physical job or 2X day training)



-CNS

[abbot138]

Good stuff. Thanks.

[goose]

Thanks for the kind words buddy.



No.

Outside of BCAAs, I've use straight (full-spectrum) aminos + dessicated liver during contest prep... but no individual aminos.

I'm looking in to Leucine... But I cannot comment on it as yet, because I haven't been able to do a controlled study on myself.

I have one client currently running it pre and post workout... So, stay tuned.

-CNS

Well I have more of an individual taste for amino acids as I buy them in bulk in the kilo,huge savings.I use 3,which 3 would you choose here? lets see if we differ,LOL.....doses under 3 grams i cap them,higher than that back in the throat and down it with water

If you check out the BCCA one its says `You can increase the effectiveness of BCAAs by consuming 10mg of Vitamin B6 with every 10g of BCAA.` Is this valid mate?

[Johny-too-small]

age? 31

weight? 193

bodyfat percentage? 10% (clipped last week)

daily activity? moderate (3 on 1 off, 7-10min. hard cardio pwo)

duration of training sessions? 45ish

Type of training undertaken? Mr. USA (Phil..)

Those numbers which you've provided alone mean nothing.

-CNS

here ya are

[audis4]

hell ya! I'll be coming up with a real lean bulk in the next couple weeks and I'm gonna need some advice from the diet experts!

good thread guys, ill be in here all the time. Another 2.5 weeks of cutting for me

[C_Bino]

Hey Nark...I as well noticed Pinn was big on Leucine. But what do you think the benefit is to taking out the valine and isoleucine from BCAA's and just using leucine.

Why not all 3? Leucine is going to comprise 50% of it by weight anyhow.

[Narkissos]

Well I have more of an individual taste for amino acids as I buy them in bulk in the kilo

I recalled you saying that in the past

If you check out the BCCA one its says `You can increase the effectiveness of BCAAs by consuming 10mg of Vitamin B6 with every 10g of BCAA.` Is this valid mate?

[url]ht]

The b-complex vits, aside from being the 'stress complex' is primarily used for the release of energy from food...Correct?

Afterall... that's the primary reason i push the supplementation of the b-complex to all my clients.

Each individual b-vitamin has a specific role.

It just so happens that b6 is involved the transport of amino acids.

Digging through my references:

The first naturally occurring form of vitamin B-6 was isolated in 1938. It has the structure, confirmed by chemical synthesis (1939), of 3-hydroxy-4,5-bis(hydroxymethyl)-2-methylpyridine (I; R = -CH2OH). The trivial name "pyridoxine", proposed for this compound by P. György, came into general use as a synonym for "vitamin B-6". Two other natural compounds possessing vitamin B-6 activity detected in 1944 and recognized as the aldehyde, or 4-formyl analogue (I; R = -CHO) of pyridoxine, and the corresponding amine, or 4-aminomethyl analogue (I; R = -CH2NH2), were designated "pyridoxal" and "pyridoxamine" respectively.

Note. The systematic name for I; R = -CH2OH, by IUPAC Organic Rule C-204.1, is 4,5-bis(hydroxymethyl)-2-methyl-3-pyridinol.

Within the next few years, I. C. Gunsalus, E. E. Snell, A. E. Braunstein and others demonstrated that a phosphoric derivative of pyridoxal, later identified as pyridoxal 5'-phosphate (II; R = -CHO), is the coenzyme of a large group of specific enzymes catalysing reactions of amino-group transfer, decarboxylation and other metabolic transformations of individual amino acids. In the course of enzymic transamination, pyridoxal 5'-phosphate undergoes reversible conversion into pyridoxamine 5'-phosphate (II; R = -CH2NH2), which has coenzyme activity for the aminotransferases (EC 2.6.1.-), but not for other types of vitamin B-6-dependent enzymes

^^There are vitamin b-6-dependant enzymes involved in process(es) related to amino uptake and use.

Taking 10 mg of b6 with your BCAAs sounds like a plug for the sale of b6.

Personally I have my clients use 50-100mg of b-complex in multiple meals... So it isn't necessary to supplement b6 individually IMO.

Furthermore... the it would be more beneficial to supplement the entire complex imo.

-CNS




References:

Braunstein, A. E. (1960) in The Enzymes, 2nd edn (Boyer, P. D., Lardy, H. & Myrbäck, K., eds) p. 113, Academic Press, New York.

International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (1960) J. Am. Chem. Soc. 82, 5581.

"Nomenclature for Vitamins B-6 and Related Compounds" http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/misc/B6.html#r2

[Narkissos]

I recalled you saying that in the past



The b-complex vits, aside from being the 'stress complex' is primarily used for the release of energy from food...Correct?

Afterall... that's the primary reason i push the supplementation of the b-complex to all my clients.

Each individual b-vitamin has a specific role.

It just so happens that b6 is involved the transport of amino acids.

Digging through my references:



^^There are vitamin b-6-dependant enzymes involved in process(es) related to amino uptake and use.

Taking 10 mg of b6 with your BCAAs sounds like a plug for the sale of b6.

Personally I have my clients use 50-100mg of b-complex in multiple meals... So it isn't necessary to supplement b6 individually IMO.

Furthermore... the it would be more beneficial to supplement the entire complex imo.

-CNS




References:

Braunstein, A. E. (1960) in The Enzymes, 2nd edn (Boyer, P. D., Lardy, H. & Myrbäck, K., eds) p. 113, Academic Press, New York.

International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (1960) J. Am. Chem. Soc. 82, 5581.

"Nomenclature for Vitamins B-6 and Related Compounds" [[/url]

A brief but interesting intro to BCAA supplementation which i think everyone should read:



-CNS

[Narkissos]

Hey Nark...I as well noticed Pinn was big on Leucine.

Yes. He still is. I've kept in contact with him.

But what do you think the benefit is to taking out the valine and isoleucine from BCAA's and just using leucine.

Why not all 3? Leucine is going to comprise 50% of it by weight anyhow.

It has been proposed that leucine alone is more effective for the purpose of stimulating protein synthesis than either of the 3 BCAAs alone.. or the combination of the 3 v.s. an equivalent amount of leucine.

On the flip side, the anti-leucine advocates quote studies which denote that the sole application of leucine will deplete plasma levels of the other two BCAAs.

What these proponents fail to state is these studies were done in an extended fasted state... Ergo, they are inapplicable to the pre-w/o (or even pwo) use of leucine.

The noteworthy conclusion is that leucine alone may give you more bang for your buck.

-CNS



References:

Leucine Regulates Translation Initiation of Protein Synthesis in Skeletal Muscle after Exercise. Norton L.E., Layman D. K.

[goose]

Stunning response,very technical analysis as always,pure science.Need to reconsider things on the b complex,the Proposal of leucine is very interesting too.

[mr747]

Hi Narkissos
i was using 2iu of HGH for 8weeks and now ive upped it to 5iu of HGH 5 on 2 off 400mg of deca per week 250mg primo depot 20mg danabol daily50mg of t4 before bedtime

i am shredding body fat none stop and i dont know why

My diet consists of
730am
oats in the morning with 2 scoops of protien
10am
fish and rice or cheicken and rice
12pm
fish and rice or chicken and rice
2pm or 230pm
same as above
5pm
same as above
PWO
1 scoop of protien
3 scoops of pure carb no suger
30 mins after PWO
chicken and rice or fish
before bed
4 or 5 mince chicken or beef balls

i weigh 83kgs 175cms
dont get me wrong i look great but i should be putting on more size

help me please mate
what else do i need

[alphadog]

whats up guys.

Ive been working out for over a year and a half straight now, i put on 25 or more pounds while keeping a 6 pack the whole time. so my metabolism is pretty great. im not sure what my body fat is somewhere between 10-14. i now wanna be in the single digits maybe 8%. my diet for putting on weight was bisically eat every 3 hours and instead of eating one portion eat 2. that ended a while ago. i still wanna add lean muscle but more towards toning. i change my routine up every week for a month and then repeat.

age: 22
6'1 185
bf: around 14 probably

monday- back/biceps
tuesday- cardio (run or bike)
wednesday- shoulders/legs
thursday- cardio or off
friday- chest/triceps
saturday- cardio (hockey)
sunday- off -- cheat meals day

gym days mon.wednesday.friday i go for about an hour/////// cardio tues.thurs. is 30-40 minutes outdoor biking//// hockey is 2 hours but playing for 10-15 intense minutes then 5 or so minutes of rest


now this is where im at for a cutting diet.

__________________________________________________ CAL.---FAT---SAT FAT---CARBS---PROTIEN
Meal 1;
1 cup plain oats w/ sugar free syrup(not much)_____________300----6g------0g----------54g---------10g
4 egg whites 1 egg scrambled cooked with O.O. spray________135-----4.5g----1.5g-------1g----------20g
1/4 cup shredded mozz. cheese___________________________80------6g------3.5g-------1g-----------8g
3 slices canadian bacon__________________________________60------1.5g----.5g--------1g-----------11g
________________________________________________ total: 575-----17.5g----5.5g-----56g-------49g
Hour later Go to gym

Meal 2 after workout;
45g whey pro-amino w/ water____________________________196-----1g-------0g---------3g----------45g
8 oz. chicken breast grilled_______________________________220-----0g-------0g--------0g----------50g
_________________________________________________t otal:416-----1g------0g---------3g----------95g
Meal 3;
8oz. chicken breast grilled_______________________________220------1g-------0g--------0g----------50g
baby romaine salad w/ o.o. and balsamic vin________________160------14g------2g--------9g----------2g
________________________________________________to tal: 380------15g-----2g--------9g-----------52g
Meal 4;
tuna(albacore)____________________________________ _____175-------2.5g------0g-------0g----------45g
w/ tbsp. light mayo______________________________________40-------4.5g------.5g-------0g---------0g
__________________________________________________ total: 215------7g-------.5g-------0g---------45g
Meal 5;
45g whey pro-amino w/ water_____________________________196-------1g--------0g-------3g---------45g
peanut butter and celery_________________________________215-------16g-------3g--------7g---------7g
_________________________________________________t otal: 411-------17g-------3g-------10g--------52g
Meal 6;
tuna(albacore)____________________________________ _____175-------2.5g------0g-------0g----------45g
w/ tbsp. light mayo______________________________________40-------4.5g------.5g-------0g---------0g
__________________________________________________ total: 215------7g-------.5g-------0g---------45g

UPDATED TOTAL:_______CALORIES_______TOTAL FAT_______SAT FAT______CARBS_______PROTIEN
--------------------------2212g-------------64.5g--------------11.5g-----------78g-----------338g

ive read and believe milk is no good cuz of processed sugar so no milk. no carrots and corn because of starch. i basically am staying away from carbs and sugar. carbs only when i need them in the morning and after workout. multivitamin everyday.

please let me know where or if im f*cking up in any areas. i eat till im satisfied i dont stuff myself. i cheat on sunday sometimes ill eat jsut 3 meals all considered cheating to me meals with bread. i can cut this out entirely if it will get me to where i want i just need some more direction. im looking to get my body to, i hate to sound cliche, but brad pitt in fight club level.

thanks

[Merc..]

I recalled you saying that in the past



The b-complex vits, aside from being the 'stress complex' is primarily used for the release of energy from food...Correct?

Afterall... that's the primary reason i push the supplementation of the b-complex to all my clients.

Each individual b-vitamin has a specific role.

It just so happens that b6 is involved the transport of amino acids.

Digging through my references:



^^There are vitamin b-6-dependant enzymes involved in process(es) related to amino uptake and use.

Taking 10 mg of b6 with your BCAAs sounds like a plug for the sale of b6.

Personally I have my clients use 50-100mg of b-complex in multiple meals... So it isn't necessary to supplement b6 individually IMO.

Furthermore... the it would be more beneficial to supplement the entire complex imo.

-CNS




References:

Braunstein, A. E. (1960) in The Enzymes, 2nd edn (Boyer, P. D., Lardy, H. & Myrbäck, K., eds) p. 113, Academic Press, New York.

International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (1960) J. Am. Chem. Soc. 82, 5581.

"Nomenclature for Vitamins B-6 and Related Compounds" http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/misc/B6.html#r2

B6 hinders your gains .. see this thread .. See A-Robs post about it ( post #43).. He suggest only getting about the RDA amount .. I just wanted to point this out about b-6 as I know peeps that take huge amounts of it ..

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...=hinders+gains

Merc.

[Narkissos]

B6 hinders your gains .. see this thread .. See A-Robs post about it ( post #43).. He suggest only getting about the RDA amount .. I just wanted to point this out about b-6 as I know peeps that take huge amounts of it ..

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...=hinders+gains

Merc.

^^

^^There are vitamin b-6-dependant enzymes involved in process(es) related to amino uptake and use.

Taking 10 mg of b6 with your BCAAs sounds like a plug for the sale of b6.

Personally I have my clients use 50-100mg of b-complex in multiple meals... So it isn't necessary to supplement b6 individually IMO.

Furthermore... the it would be more beneficial to supplement the entire complex imo.

-CNS

[Narkissos]

Stunning response,very technical analysis as always,pure science.Need to reconsider things on the b complex,the Proposal of leucine is very interesting too.

Np mate.

This thread is where science meets real world experience.

I will not pretend that I know the answer to all questions... because chances are, I don't.

I will however try to answer as many as possible...as honestly as possible, and as detailed as possible.

Hopefully people read the entire thread as it progresses so that not too much has to be repeated.

Keep the questions coming.

-CNS

[Narkissos]

Sup bros?

Ive been playing around A LOT with diets. I came up with this and am hoping to drop 2lbs a week on it.

Please rip away, hahaha:

Will do

age: 31

weight: 193

bodyfat percentage: 10% (caliper)

daily activity: moderate (3 on 1 off, 7-10min. hard cardio pwo)

duration of training sessions: 45ish

Ok... Noted.

Your 45-minute session duration includes the cardio?

Or is this weight-training only?

I'd peg your project kcals @ 2316 kcals for fat-loss

..and 2900 kcals on the re-feed day.

As outlined below, your diet is pretty good I'd say.

PRO CHO FAT
MEAL 1:
1 Cup Oats 10 54 5
1 Tbs Olive Oil 0 0 14
1 Cup Egg Whites 24 4 0
1/2 Scoop Whey 12 1.5 0.5

MEAL 2:
1 Cup Oats 10 54 5
1 Tbs Olive Oil 0 0 14
6oz Tuna 37.5 0 2.5

MEAL 3: PWO
1.5 Scoops Whey 36 4.5 1.5
1 Banana 1.5 35 1
1oz Whole Almonds 6 6 14
1/2 Cup Oats 5 27 2.5

MEAL 4: PPWO
6oz Tuna 37.5 0 2.5
1 Tbs Olive Oil 0 0 14
1 Cup Rice 5 45 0

MEAL 5:
4oz Chicken Breast 25 0 0.5
1oz Whole Almonds 6 6 14



Totals: 2571kcals 215.5 237 91

What i don't like... is how high the fat is: <>30%

I's subtract 6gr from each meal listed...That'd free up 270kcals (as well as lowering your fat allotment to <>20% of the overall kcals for the day).

My initial suggested kcal total for you was: 2316kcals

This is 255 kcals less than your current total.

So... dropping the 270 kcals would put you closer to where you should be.

5 meals... Hm... what's your meal-timing like?

-CNS

[Narkissos]

I must state prior to responding to this... That this is not a drug thread.

It is a performance nutrition thread primarily.

So what you're on, while important, is only of secondary importance.

Hi Narkissos
i was using 2iu of HGH for 8weeks and now ive upped it to 5iu of HGH 5 on 2 off 400mg of deca per week 250mg primo depot 20mg danabol daily 50mg of t4 before bedtime

I'm sure you mean 'mcg'.

And only 50 mcg of t4?

Are you sure you're using t4 as opposed to t3?

(I'm aware that t4 is the norm for HGH use... but the dose your incorporating is a bit on the low side... So clarify thanks)

i am shredding body fat none stop and i dont know why

Well.. You are running androgens, plus a thyroid hormone, and a peptide.. plus a clean diet

I'd look at the your overall kcal intake if i were you.

My diet consists of
730am
oats in the morning with 2 scoops of protien
10am
fish and rice or cheicken and rice
12pm
fish and rice or chicken and rice
2pm or 230pm
same as above
5pm
same as above
PWO
1 scoop of protien
3 scoops of pure carb no suger
30 mins after PWO
chicken and rice or fish
before bed
4 or 5 mince chicken or beef balls

i weigh 83kgs 175cms

These numbers tell me nothing to be honest.

How much protein are you getting per meal?

How many carbs?

How much fat?

How much cardio are you doing, and how many times per week...and when?

How regularly are you weight-training? etc.

dont get me wrong i look great but i should be putting on more size

Are you not gaining.. or are you not gaining fast enough for your likes?

help me please mate
what else do i need

See above.

-CNS

[Narkissos]

I've gotta pop out for a couple hours.

I'll address the unanswered question then.

Feel free to add any in my absence.

-CNS

[Braunstein]

Hello Nark,
Thanks for taking the time to field these questions.
1. Do fruits and vegetables have any place in a cutting diet? If so, which types and at what portions?
2. I’m currently injured and cannot weight train but I also have a high level of body fat I’m trying to reduce… Is it safe to continue my cutting diet without any type of training? (no juice)

[Johny-too-small]

Sa-weet!!! Yes, the 45min includes cardio and training. Thanks for the excellent advice! ..I think I'll add in another meal to help with the hunger pains.

Will do



Ok... Noted.

Your 45-minute session duration includes the cardio?

Or is this weight-training only?

I'd peg your project kcals @ 2316 kcals for fat-loss

..and 2900 kcals on the re-feed day.

As outlined below, your diet is pretty good I'd say.



What i don't like... is how high the fat is: <>30%

I's subtract 6gr from each meal listed...That'd free up 270kcals (as well as lowering your fat allotment to <>20% of the overall kcals for the day).

My initial suggested kcal total for you was: 2316kcals

This is 255 kcals less than your current total.

So... dropping the 270 kcals would put you closer to where you should be.

5 meals... Hm... what's your meal-timing like?

-CNS