Using S4 in pct, perfect recovery?

[Amorphic]

I'm not sure how many of you guys have been following the development of SARM's, but for those of you that are aware, S4 is out in the ugl scene.

Brief summary, S4 is a selective androgen receptor modulator. This is the new experimental type of drug to use in hrt etc to eliminate hpta suppression and other complications of trt.

S4 is as anabolic as testosterone but 1/3 as androgenic. That being said, it would be a nice non hormonal androgen replacement but the lack of negative androgenic effects also diminishes the muscle building capabilities of it.

Some of the reading ive gone through suggests that S4 may lower fsh and lh activity but i have been considering a few interesting ideas.

1. S4 might be a great addition to pct. While it may not help in gaining muscle the effects on libido/mood/energy and hormonal replacement may be a huge advantage to keeping your gains.

2. combining S4 with nolva/aromasin/hcg? If S4 is mildly suppressive to lh and fsh it may not be that helpful in recovery by itself but if you combine it with a solid pct perhaps it may be extremely beneficial?

I've thought about getting this compound to try it out in a pct. Have any of you guys thought about this or tried it yet?



Just some idle thoughts on the subject, feel free to add or correct me if i made any factual errors.

[Amorphic]

bump

[peachfuzz]

Pharmacodynamics of selective androgen receptor modulators.
Yin D, Gao W, Kearbey JD, Xu H, Chung K, He Y, Marhefka CA, Veverka KA, Miller DD, Dalton JT.

Division of Pharmaceutics and Pharmaceutical Chemistry, College of Pharmacy, The Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio, USA.

The present study aimed to identify selective androgen receptor modulators (SARMs) with in vivo pharmacological activity. We examined the in vitro and in vivo pharmacological activity of four chiral, nonsteroidal SARMs synthesized in our laboratories. In the in vitro assays, these compounds demonstrated moderate to high androgen receptor (AR) binding affinity, with K(i) values ranging from 4 to 37 nM, and three of the compounds efficaciously stimulated AR-mediated reporter gene expression. The compounds were then administered subcutaneously to castrated rats to appraise their in vivo pharmacological activity. Androgenic activity was evaluated by the ability of these compounds to maintain the weights of prostate and seminal vesicle, whereas levator ani muscle weight was used as a measure of anabolic activity. The maximal response (E(max)) and dose for half-maximal effect (ED(50)) were determined for each compound and compared with that observed for testosterone propionate (TP). Compounds S-1 and S-4 demonstrated in vivo androgenic and anabolic activity, whereas compounds S-2 and S-3 did not. The activities of S-1 and S-4 were tissue-selective in that both compounds stimulated the anabolic organs more than the androgenic organs. These two compounds were less potent and efficacious than TP in androgenic activity, but their anabolic activity was similar to or greater than that of TP. Neither S-1 nor S-4 caused significant luteinizing hormone or follicle stimulating hormone suppression at doses near the ED(50) value. Thus, compounds S-1 and S-4 were identified as SARMs with potent and tissue-selective in vivo pharmacological activity, and represent the first members of a new class of SARMs with selective anabolic effects.

PMID: 12604714 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[T_Own]

ahh yes, and i thought s4 was just a ballin car

i don't have anything to add, but i would like to see who else does, so this can be considering a bump

[Dobie-BOY]

Wow, I dunno shart about it, but it sure sounds good..

[Kratos]

I would say to some extent SARM is a marketing buzz word. Their chemical sturcture is not steroidal and thier activity is bias towards anabolic, at least the ones that are currently being concidered for marketing. I would suspect if someone finds a use for a more androgenic SARM they may have to rename the catagory or make SARM a sub catagory...for example male contraception. Being bias towards anabolic rather than androgenic is not unique to non-steroidal chemicals. For example would you tell someone to throw T-bol into their PCT, although I'm not going to prentend to have the data to say it's a horrible idea for the right canditate. There is no purely anabolic SARM. At this time I wouldn't use it in PCT but rather cycle it on it's own possibly along with clomid and nolvadex or an AI or something like that. There will be some inhibition. S-4 doesn't inhibit FSH levels to any great extent but it does inhibit LH levels and testosterone production although not greatly. For example: gonadotropin levels in C-6-treated groups were significantly lower than control values.
C-6 also significantly decreased serum testosterone concentration, mimicing the endocrine effects of testosterone while maintaining the oral bioavailability and tissue-selective actions of nonsteroidal SARMs.

[Kratos]

You could do something like 1 week on 3 days off protocol with this stuff and stay on that way for a long time.

[peachfuzz]

im a little confused. these sarms have mixed agonist/antagonist properties like most serms do correct? doesnt this allow us to utilize higher doses of AAS without the negative androgenic side effects?

[Kratos]

im a little confused. these sarms have mixed agonist/antagonist properties like most serms do correct? doesnt this allow us to utilize higher doses of AAS without the negative androgenic side effects?

no, it's not an androgen blocker like say nolvadex blockes estrogen. You don't add it to a stack to cut down on sides. Although you could stack s-4 or any of the other SARMs with more androgenic compounds.

[Kratos]

and next time start your own thread fuzz, this isn't the post whore thread, jk.

[peachfuzz]

no, it's not an androgen blocker like say nolvadex blockes estrogen. You don't add it to a stack to cut down on sides. Although you could stack s-4 or any of the other SARMs with more androgenic compounds.

well then why the hell doesnt someone make one of those?

[JiGGaMaN]

ahh yes, and i thought s4 was just a ballin car

i don't have anything to add, but i would like to see who else does, so this can be considering a bump

In a sense, a sports car is a type of androgen replacement therapy

[T_Own]

In a sense, a sports car is a type of androgen replacement therapy

good point. i think the way i drive sometimes can boost my test through the roof. a nice spooling turbo really gets the test flowing.

bump for anything a little more relevant

[mholla]

http://www.superhumanradio.com/core/shr_archive.htm

listen to #244, it has some great info about S-4.

also see link: http://www.sarms.cn/
(hopefully posting that link is not a problem, because the stuff is legal for now).

[mholla]

i'm thinking of running it during pct to help me keep my gains (100mg/day for 4-8 weeks). also, as a bridge to next cycle. i've read the major sides are yellow vision and poor night vision, which is serious but seem to be temporary. also, i've read that supplements for vision such as Lutein and Bilberry extract work to reduce the vision sides. s-4 has passed the first stage of fda testing which is a good sign as well.

[Andro9]

i'm thinking of running it during pct to help me keep my gains (100mg/day for 4-8 weeks). also, as a bridge to next cycle. i've read the major sides are yellow vision and poor night vision, which is serious but seem to be temporary. also, i've read that supplements for vision such as Lutein and Bilberry extract work to reduce the vision sides. s-4 has passed the first stage of fda testing which is a good sign as well.

we need a guinea pig let us know how it goes, lol. i think im going to wait until its more widely avalible so the price goes down.

[mholla]

i'm thinking hard about it. its not too expensive. maybe just running it alone for a month or so to see what happens. i've read that people experience a moderate loss of body fat and and moderate gain in lean body mass, although it is dependent on training and diet.

[Carlito B]

http://www.superhumanradio.com/core/shr_archive.htm

listen to #244, it has some great info about S-4.

also see link: http://www.sarms.cn/
(hopefully posting that link is not a problem, because the stuff is legal for now).

Domain is chinese.

C

[FallenWyvern]

Anybody order this for their rats yet?

[mholla]

That is my friend's site, I know who he is.

C

have you tried it out?

[Carlito B]

have you tried it out?

Yes I have and FYI and others, THERE IS ONLY ONE SUPPLIER OF SARMS . Also, there is a reason why nobody in China even wants to mess with it but I won't go into details . The actual chemist who developed it is a friend and a business partner of mine.

C

[smokeyd]

eh this post just has the delet button hovering over it lol

[peachfuzz]

nevermind...

[T_Own]

eh this post just has the delet button hovering over it lol

well not many people have any info on it, and even less exp with it

[nyjetsfan86]

where can s4 be purchased

[jimmyinkedup]

id personally at this stage be very suspect of s4 that is available. Very suspect. I think we will have to wait for the real human pharma , im talking REAL S4, to be approved and released. JMO

[MuscleScience]

id personally at this stage be very suspect of s4 that is available. Very suspect. I think we will have to wait for the real human pharma , im talking REAL S4, to be approved and released. JMO

I agree, although the chemical formula is out there for everyone to view. It wouldnt be out of the question for someone with a good chemistry background and access to a descent lab to make it.

[Carlito B]

I agree, although the chemical formula is out there for everyone to view. It wouldnt be out of the question for someone with a good chemistry background and access to a descent lab to make it.

Exactly!

[jimmyinkedup]

As far as sarms any minor change in chemical structure may change it from an agonist into an antagonist. This last remark should be a warning for chemically enhanced sportsmen that are offered designer SARM's. They just as well may have an opposite effect. It took pharmceutical companies years to correctly and consistently synthesize these sarms .it wasnt a matter of oh we have the chem formula lets just duplicate it..to expect a ugl or simply a knowledgeable chemist to do so IMO is not realistic or prudent.


to document some research info acquired re: the above statements:
[1] Gao W.; Kim J. and Dalton J.T. Pharmaceutical Research (2006) 23, 1641-1658. .
[2] Gao W.and Dalton J.W. Drug Discovery Today (2007) 12, 241-248 .
[3] Bohl C.E.; Miller D.D.; Chen J.; Bell C.E. and Dalton J.T. J. Biol. Chem. (2005) 280, 37747-37754.

[Carlito B]

As far as sarms any minor change in chemical structure may change it from an agonist into an antagonist. This last remark should be a warning for chemically enhanced sportsmen that are offered designer SARM's. They just as well may have an opposite effect. It took pharmceutical companies years to correctly and consistently synthesize these sarms .it wasnt a matter of oh we have the chem formula lets just duplicate it..to expect a ugl or simply a knowledgeable chemist to do so IMO is not realistic or prudent.


to document some research info acquired re: the above statements:
[1] Gao W.; Kim J. and Dalton J.T. Pharmaceutical Research (2006) 23, 1641-1658. .
[2] Gao W.and Dalton J.W. Drug Discovery Today (2007) 12, 241-248 .
[3] Bohl C.E.; Miller D.D.; Chen J.; Bell C.E. and Dalton J.T. J. Biol. Chem. (2005) 280, 37747-37754.

That is correct! It took my friend @ 2 years to develop it, almost gave up on it. The guy owns a lab and not only he is a scientist he is also an afficionado bodybuilder. Is true this is nothing just any ugl or any chemist for that matter can produce, it takes time and also obtaining some of the raw materials needed can be tricky since some of them are restricted in China but not in the UK

[Tesla]

That is correct! It took my friend @ 2 years to develop it, almost gave up on it.

Are you saying that the S4 that's out there now is your friend's own creation? Is it an exact duplicate of the S4 that's in the pipeline with the major pharm companies or is it his own creation?

[MuscleScience]

As far as sarms any minor change in chemical structure may change it from an agonist into an antagonist. This last remark should be a warning for chemically enhanced sportsmen that are offered designer SARM's. They just as well may have an opposite effect. It took pharmceutical companies years to correctly and consistently synthesize these sarms .it wasnt a matter of oh we have the chem formula lets just duplicate it..to expect a ugl or simply a knowledgeable chemist to do so IMO is not realistic or prudent.


to document some research info acquired re: the above statements:
[1] Gao W.; Kim J. and Dalton J.T. Pharmaceutical Research (2006) 23, 1641-1658. .
[2] Gao W.and Dalton J.W. Drug Discovery Today (2007) 12, 241-248 .
[3] Bohl C.E.; Miller D.D.; Chen J.; Bell C.E. and Dalton J.T. J. Biol. Chem. (2005) 280, 37747-37754.

I dont see it being any more difficult to mimic than SERMs.....

[FallenWyvern]

Well AR's review is suspect, just look at the ads on his blog site.

[jimmyinkedup]

I dont see it being any more difficult to mimic than SERMs.....

hmmm a serm for all intensive purposes binds to the receptor w/o the dramatic effects of the normal homone that would bind..a "blocker' say.. kind of like like opioid blockers (or at least similar).... .much easier.The other effects of serms are simply coincidentally, benficial in some cases medically, side effects of that mechanism. Sarms, on the other hand, must not only bind but it must create the positive effect of a traditional anabolic w/o the negative sides..tricky to say the least. As we know even milder androgens cause undesirable androgenic side effects ( shutdown of hpta etc..).. so we know the coincidental sides of normal , weaker androgens. Plus in this case by binding to recpetor we wish to create a pronounced androgenic/anabolic response...not a diminished one like with serms and estrogen receptors, and we want to tailor the sides to be beneficial ..not the natural, detrimental, coincidentally occurring sides associated with the compound. Def more difficult. Theoretically i see your rationale but there is a big difference. I could go on but these factors and more , plus if u look at the difficulties they had in synthesis, well ...lets say its JMO ..

[MuscleScience]

hmmm a serm for all intensive purposes binds to the receptor w/o the dramatic effects of the normal hoomone that would bind..a "blocker' say.. kind of like like opioid blockers (or at least similar).... .much easier.The other effects of serms are simply side effects of that mechanism....this (sarm) must not only bind but it must create the positive effect of a traditional anabolic..w/o the negative sides..tricky to say the least. As we know even milder androgens cause undesirable androgenic side effects ( shutdown of hpta etc..).. So theoretically i see your rationale but there is a big difference. I could go on but these factors and more plus if u look at the difficulties they had in synthesis, well ...lets say its JMO ..

I will take your word for it, I dont think I could have an intelligent debate about chemistry I just barely understand the simplest of reactions....

[jimmyinkedup]

^^ either way -i know u are a science guy in some way...anyway i saw your logic ...i kept adding info even after u posted looking at the posting times i guess..*L*.anyway...

[Carlito B]

Well AR's review is suspect, just look at the ads on his blog site.

AR he just sampled it and gave his own personal review although he did give the heads up about Sarms and to be precised at that time when he forwarded the data on Sarms it was S-1 then after doing more research it was determine the S-4 was the one to be produced, AR just found out about this S-4 finally being produced this year and as a common courtesy a sample was sent to him.

Tesla, the S-4 that is sold is not his creation of course he researched the chemical and the formula was forwarded to the chemists to reproduce from scratch, that is what I meant so he was the innovator who brought it to the market but not the one who actually discovered these SArms.

C

[FallenWyvern]

AR he just sampled it and gave his own personal review although he did give the heads up about Sarms and to be precised at that time when he forwarded the data on Sarms it was S-1 then after doing more research it was determine the S-4 was the one to be produced, AR just found out about this S-4 finally being produced this year and as a common courtesy a sample was sent to him.

Tesla, the S-4 that is sold is not his creation of course he researched the chemical and the formula was forwarded to the chemists to reproduce from scratch, that is what I meant so he was the innovator who brought it to the market but not the one who actually discovered these SArms.

C

My comment was about the ads.

[Drummerboy]

anybody talking about the visual side effects of this? People seeing colours and whatnot? I wouldnt touch it.

~DB~

[Carlito B]

anybody talking about the visual side effects of this? People seeing colours and whatnot? I wouldnt touch it.

~DB~

People get similar side effects from using Cialis, Viagra and SERMS such as Clomid..they still use them, right?

C