S-4 During PCT LOG

**adam15425** · 01-09-2010, 09:24 PM

Starting S-4 tomorrow @ 25mg/day. This week I will be running HCG @ 500iu EOD as well as Aromasin @ 12.5mg/day.
Next weeks are as follows:
16 Aromasin 12.5mg/day - Nolvadex 20mg/day - Clomid 50mg/day
17 Nolvadex 20mg/day - Clomid 50mg/day
18 Nolvadex 20mg/day - Clomid 25mg/day
19 Nolvadex 20mg/day - Clomid 25mg/day

Plan on running S-4 @ 25mg/day throughout up to week 23. May bump it up to 50mg/day. I'd like to run the S-4 for 8 weeks but we will see how the sides get. I am also dieting for a show. Stay tuned for pics and updates.

**bass** · 01-09-2010, 11:42 PM

thanks for logging this...

**biggerisbetter1827** · 01-10-2010, 01:46 AM

yes thank you indeed....i'm running a test e and deca cycle this summer and i have been considering adding s-4 to my pct...keep us posted
-D

**Okinawa_Power** · 01-10-2010, 06:26 AM

I would not run S4 during PCT. S4 will affect your HTPA just like AAS does. During PCT you are trying to restart your natural test levels, by taking S4 you are just complicating the process. S4 is starting to be used as a bridge for AAS cycles because of the ability to keep muscle and the fat breakdown going from one cycle to another. This should just be done by experienced users. Just my .02

**adam15425** · 01-10-2010, 01:10 PM

I thought that a low dose of S4 doesnt affext the HPTA

From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...8/?tool=pubmed
"The activities of S-4 on LH and FSH were similar to those produced by TP. S-1 and S-4 partially suppressed LH production at dose rates of 0.5 mg/day or higher."

An absolute dose of 0.5 mg/day is equivalent to 1.9 mg/kg/day in the rats studied. When corrected for body surface area and converted to dosing for humans, you get 0.31 mg/kg (1.9 * 0.162). As a theoretical extrapolation, for a 100 kg (220 lb) man, a dose of only 31 mg/day is where you'd start to see "partially suppressed LH production."

**adam15425** · 01-10-2010, 01:24 PM

Also found this on e l i t e f i t n e s s.com (jacshelb)

I've written about this a few times, but yeah, that's exactly what I did. I did a cycle in Jan, starting bw of 205 and got up to 235 or so and when I came off, with some pretty standard PCT, I lost weight and ended up at 210 lbs. That wasn't cool! I used sarms AFTER PCT right up to my next cycle at 75 mg per day 5 days per week for about 5-6 weeks. I lost 3-4 lbs of fat- at least- and gained 2-3 or more lbs of muscle. Basically it helpe me recomposition.

Like I say, I ran s4 right up till my next cycle. This time I did a very similar cycle, got up to around 240 lbs, but when I came off I used: Clomid 50 mg/day, s4 50 mg/day/5 x week, and DHEA (for mood etc). Instead of plummeting to 210 lbs like I did before I only lost my testosterone water weight, dropped to around 230-232 or so. After PCT I kept running the sarms. My libido came back as "normal" post cycle, everything was normal except I retained a great amount of size! I ran s4 right up to my next cycle... again.

This is probably how I'll do it. My balls come back to full size as they normally do, without hcg . I do NOT think s4 helps in hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - recovery, but that mine is recovering despite the s4. Side by side, a PCT for me, as far as I can tell about the size of my testes, sex drive, energy levels etc. is the same with or without s4, only difference is s4 helps me retain ALL gains- besides water. Or, at least that is the case thus far. I don't want to be without sarms!

Also, I had no vision trouble to speak of at 50 mg/day and only slight at 75mg-100mg. But, I've heard from others who had trouble at 50 mg, but went away 3 days after stopping.

**Necrosaro** · 01-10-2010, 02:20 PM

I also believe that sarms will not effect your hpta unless you run at a higher dose. If kep to a min dose you should be bale to complete your pct and keep most of the gains.

**Crulexis** · 01-10-2010, 02:42 PM

From many people I've been talking to on EliteF.com SARM'S are seeming more and more like a good idea for PCT.. It shouldn't shut you down at 50MG. ED but, of course that is all speculation at this point, and everyone's different... But a few guys I know used SARMS during PCT , it helped them drop the water weight, keep STR and maintain A LOT MORE muscle compared to not have used the SARMS...

Good luck man, I will def be following this log, as I am going to be using it in My PCT in 8 weeks time

**Triple Stack** · 01-10-2010, 04:08 PM

I'm following this thread too...thanks for the log! I have two bottles of S4 here with me, ready for my PCT starting in March. I've been debating with myself which would be better: Do PCT, then SARM'S....or both PCT & SARM'S together. I was planning 50mg/day for 2 months.

I'll stay posted here & keep researching, thanks for the info Adam!

**Necrosaro** · 01-10-2010, 07:20 PM

^ Personally we are all experimenting with sarms at the moment; when are you done your cycle? You could wait till you see the results of the original poster

**Triple Stack** · 01-10-2010, 07:29 PM

I'm done 2nd week of February, which means I'm starting PCT beginning March. I'm counting on seeing the results here of the OP. I'm really interested in seeing how this pans out!

**Necrosaro** · 01-10-2010, 07:34 PM

He might have at lease some results to give you an idea of how his progress is and give you a better idea as to what you might want to do before you start.

**Triple Stack** · 01-10-2010, 07:39 PM

I hope so, and if it's still inconclusive at that point, then I'll be the 2nd (or 3rd,4th,5th by that time) to post my own S4 PCT log!

**tballz** · 01-11-2010, 10:20 AM

Good stuff, Adam. Keep us posted.

**freakinhuge** · 01-13-2010, 11:35 PM

definitely keep us updated on this, a lot of logs on here are about running sarms by itself, would love to see how it affects your pct, good luck.

**adam15425** · 01-14-2010, 07:23 PM

SCRATCH THIS....... With all this misinformation going around I am not risking to be a test rat to possibly be on HRT if this "S-4" isnt what it is claimed by sellers. I'm just going to do my pct w/o "S-4" or whatever the hell it is. I will save the compound for when I recover to use as a standalone to see if its suppressive to myself at a dose of 50mg/day. Sorry fellas

**endus** · 01-14-2010, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by adam15425

SCRATCH THIS....... With all this misinformation going around I am not risking to be a test rat to possibly be on HRT if this "S-4" isnt what it is claimed by sellers. I'm just going to do my pct w/o "S-4" or whatever the hell it is. I will save the compound for when I recover to use as a standalone to see if its suppressive to myself at a dose of 50mg/day. Sorry fellas

Don't worry about - you put in lot of effort getting ripped. If unsure, save it for later. Better to be safe than sorry.

**adam15425** · 01-14-2010, 07:48 PM

Ill probably run the S-4 in the beginning of May....I'll be sure to keep a log

**adam15425** · 01-18-2010, 03:13 AM

Just figured I'd post this up: Guy running S4 during PCT. Bloodwork to come.

http://www.e l i t e f i t n e s s.com/forum/anabolic -steroids /my-sarms -s4-experience-681165-10.html

**adam15425** · 03-03-2010, 05:19 PM

well guys, I haven't said anything until now but I have been running s-4 and am still on it for my contest prep. Just got my lab results today and was astonished. Results were taken a few weeks after cessation of nolvadex and clomid pct of my last cycle but I was and still am on s4 at 20mg/day Heres the report. Maybe its not a bad idea to run during pct? Im going to get more blood work done the beginning of april after I finish the s4. i have been running S4 for a while.

**bass** · 03-03-2010, 05:58 PM

Adam, what were you levels before?

**adam15425** · 03-03-2010, 08:27 PM

680ish ng/dL test 34ng/dL estrogen

**bass** · 03-03-2010, 11:06 PM

That’s pretty damn good, now remember this is what my readings were after S4 cycle (higher number after cycle), the only difference is i did a poor PCT, if your stay the way it is three months from now then that would be awesome.

**adam15425** · 03-03-2010, 11:20 PM

I hope nothing changes. Im going to be running Primordial performances test recovery stack starting next week too. Ill retest probably the end of april to see where I stand a month after stopping the S4

**Swifto** · 03-04-2010, 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by adam15425

I thought that a low dose of S4 doesnt affext the HPTA

From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...8/?tool=pubmed
"The activities of S-4 on LH and FSH were similar to those produced by TP. S-1 and S-4 partially suppressed LH production at dose rates of 0.5 mg/day or higher."

An absolute dose of 0.5 mg/day is equivalent to 1.9 mg/kg/day in the rats studied. When corrected for body surface area and converted to dosing for humans, you get 0.31 mg/kg (1.9 * 0.162). As a theoretical extrapolation, for a 100 kg (220 lb) man, a dose of only 31 mg/day is where you'd start to see "partially suppressed LH production."

Correct.

**Swifto** · 03-04-2010, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by adam15425

well guys, I haven't said anything until now but I have been running s-4 and am still on it for my contest prep. Just got my lab results today and was astonished. Results were taken a few weeks after cessation of nolvadex and clomid pct of my last cycle but I was and still am on s4 at 20mg/day Heres the report. Maybe its not a bad idea to run during pct? Im going to get more blood work done the beginning of april after I finish the s4. i have been running S4 for a while.

You need to leave around 5-6 weeks for the Tamox and Clomid metabolites to no longer be active in the body, otherwise your readings arnt accurate.

I've done this 3 weeks after and 5-6 weeks after PCT using Tamox/Clomid and my levels were above baseline due to the SERMs.

SARMs are so new, I wont touch them. Research companies dont even know what the f*ck their selling the consumer. No way will I touch SARMs anytime soon. There selective in the ways the effect the prostate/subconscious glands, but nothing else. They will effect the HPTA over 30-35mg/ED.

**endus** · 03-04-2010, 03:55 PM

I don't think its worth it but be careful. Hopefully you don't have to do another PCT.

**endus** · 03-04-2010, 03:57 PM

Hey, you need a colon cleansed? I know a guy, who knows a guy...

**adam15425** · 03-04-2010, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by endus

I don't think its worth it but be careful. Hopefully you don't have to do another PCT.

Yea I was on the wire about it and just went with it. I didn't say anything because i figured I'd hear about still running it. After seeing my blood work I'm pretty damn impressed so far. But yea, hopefully I don't get suppressed from it. Just doesn't make sense that my levels are where they are, if it was suppressive to me at 20mg/day I don't think my levels would recover like they have. Time will tell, more blood work will be in order.

**tballz** · 03-04-2010, 04:45 PM

I've read another log on another board where it didn't suppress. He was doing like 50mg/day.

**teddykgb29** · 03-04-2010, 06:09 PM

wow great to see the test results come back, your levels came back big. Have you always been using 20 mg per day during pct.

**adam15425** · 03-04-2010, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by teddykgb29

wow great to see the test results come back, your levels came back big. Have you always been using 20 mg per day during pct.

This is the first time I've used it at all, and it's during PCT...I'm still on also.

**tballz** · 03-05-2010, 09:29 AM

Great stuff. I've read other logs where sarms didn't suppress them.

**Steroidman99** · 03-11-2010, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by adam15425

well guys, I haven't said anything until now but I have been running s-4 and am still on it for my contest prep. Just got my lab results today and was astonished. Results were taken a few weeks after cessation of nolvadex and clomid pct of my last cycle but I was and still am on s4 at 20mg/day Heres the report. Maybe its not a bad idea to run during pct? Im going to get more blood work done the beginning of april after I finish the s4. i have been running S4 for a while.

I have been a bit disappointed with S-4 so far. It didn't prevent strength loss during PCT at 16 mg/day (6 drops). I raised the dosage up to 10-12 drops (26-31 mg/day), but after 10 days, the effect is not much better. I am falling down, although only slowly, and not at all exercises. At the same time, Anavar can easily prevent strength loss at mere 10 mg/day in me.

**adam15425** · 03-11-2010, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Steroidman99

I have been a bit disappointed with S-4 so far. It didn't prevent strength loss during PCT at 16 mg/day (6 drops). I raised the dosage up to 10-12 drops (26-31 mg/day), but after 10 days, the effect is not much better. I am falling down, although only slowly, and not at all exercises. At the same time, Anavar can easily prevent strength loss at mere 10 mg/day in me.

Same here, although I am calorie restricted. I think it is a great addition to pct just not something to do as a standalone and to expect big things from. My strength is still there, lost a bit but that's expected after coming off 500mg test 400mg EQ a week. The strength loss just isn't as prominent as if I were doing pct without S4, so I think it is good to add in pct. Benching, I was repping 315 for 6-7, now I'm getting it for for 4. Keep in mind I am in contest prep so who knows, my strength may have stayed if I was in a caloric surplus. Biggest thing I noticed with S4 is the body recomp, I am harldy losing weight but 7 site skinfolds and the mirror say I'm losing bodyfat.

**Steroidman99** · 03-11-2010, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by adam15425

Same here, although I am calorie restricted. I think it is a great addition to pct just not something to do as a standalone and to expect big things from. My strength is still there, lost a bit but that's expected after coming off 500mg test 400mg EQ a week. The strength loss just isn't as prominent as if I were doing pct without S4, so I think it is good to add in pct. Benching, I was repping 315 for 6-7, now I'm getting it for for 4. Keep in mind I am in contest prep so who knows, my strength may have stayed if I was in a caloric surplus. Biggest thing I noticed with S4 is the body recomp, I am harldy losing weight but 7 site skinfolds and the mirror say I'm losing bodyfat.

I must add that I don't use anything else than S-4. I don't want to take Nolvadex , because it is not too healthy, and furthermore, it didn't help me at all after my previous cycle (Winstrol for 8 weeks). It seems that if I run any steroid in high doses for more than 6 weeks, my testosterone levels are practically zero and Nolvadex is too weak an aid. I would like to order exemestane from China, but it's relatively expensive.

What is curious, however, that I made personal bests during the first two weeks of my PCT - only on 6 drops of S-4/day. I thought that the PCT with S-4 would be fine - which was not. Interestingly, the same happened after my previous cycle with Winstrol, when I started to run Nolvadex - I made personal bests during the 1st week post-cycle, but I subsequently crashed very quickly during the 2nd-3rd week.

I am just running my 4th week of PCT and although the strength/muscle loses are relatively mild, it's still annoying. Without S-4, I would certainly lose everything very quickly, because my testosterone was virtually non-existent after the cycle (I ran Anavar , 60-80 mg/day, for 8 weeks). However, although I was not naive, I secretly hoped that I would not lose anything and that I could even gain some decent strength during the PCT. Unfortunately, the applicator in the bottle was crappy and during the first two weeks I took much less S-4 than I had originally planned (ca. 25 mg/day). On Monday, I will again check my blood values of tesosterone, and this will be crucial for my decision, what to do with S-4 further.

Many guys report positive results when combining S-4 with Nolvadex. So I think I will try S-4 + exemestane after my next cycle.

**adam15425** · 03-12-2010, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by Steroidman99

I must add that I don't use anything else than S-4. I don't want to take Nolvadex , because it is not too healthy, and furthermore, it didn't help me at all after my previous cycle (Winstrol for 8 weeks). It seems that if I run any steroid in high doses for more than 6 weeks, my testosterone levels are practically zero and Nolvadex is too weak an aid. I would like to order exemestane from China, but it's relatively expensive.

What is curious, however, that I made personal bests during the first two weeks of my PCT - only on 6 drops of S-4/day. I thought that the PCT with S-4 would be fine - which was not. Interestingly, the same happened after my previous cycle with Winstrol, when I started to run Nolvadex - I made personal bests during the 1st week post-cycle, but I subsequently crashed very quickly during the 2nd-3rd week.

I am just running my 4th week of PCT and although the strength/muscle loses are relatively mild, it's still annoying. Without S-4, I would certainly lose everything very quickly, because my testosterone was virtually non-existent after the cycle (I ran Anavar , 60-80 mg/day, for 8 weeks). However, although I was not naive, I secretly hoped that I would not lose anything and that I could even gain some decent strength during the PCT. Unfortunately, the applicator in the bottle was crappy and during the first two weeks I took much less S-4 than I had originally planned (ca. 25 mg/day). On Monday, I will again check my blood values of tesosterone, and this will be crucial for my decision, what to do with S-4 further.

Many guys report positive results when combining S-4 with Nolvadex. So I think I will try S-4 + exemestane after my next cycle.

It sounds as if your PCT approach is way off. Nolvadex only is a big no no in my book. At the very least run clomid. For anyone, I highly recommend HCG on cycle, it just makes pct a breeze. Throw in some aromasin if you want to be very thorough, but wacth as too much will drive estrogen levels into the ground. Any exogenous steroid even in the smallest amount is going to mess up the hpta and pretty much fully shut one down after 6 weeks, no ifs ands or buts about it. Your pct's from your previous cycles were horrible. Also, running S4 only pct is not so bright also IMO.

**Steroidman99** · 03-12-2010, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by adam15425

It sounds as if your PCT approach is way off. Nolvadex only is a big no no in my book. At the very least run clomid. For anyone, I highly recommend HCG on cycle, it just makes pct a breeze. Throw in some aromasin if you want to be very thorough, but wacth as too much will drive estrogen levels into the ground. Any exogenous steroid even in the smallest amount is going to mess up the hpta and pretty much fully shut one down after 6 weeks, no ifs ands or buts about it. Your pct's from your previous cycles were horrible. Also, running S4 only pct is not so bright also IMO.

Based on my previous experience, I would say that Nolvadex is O.K., if I don't run the cycle for more than 6 weeks, and if I don't use high doses. As I already said elsewhere, everything must be tested at first. If my experiment with S-4 fails, then I will have to make up something else. I don't plan to use HCG yet, although I considered it very seriously last year, after my heavy crash. It would be certainly fine to run it during the cycle, but it would raise the overall androgenic sides to which I am highly sensitive. I have run only 3 solid cycles so far, and I would like to try simpler methods at first. Sure, a small dose of S-4 + any sort of testosterone booster would be the best combination.

I also suspect that I started to use a sh*tty sort of creatine just after my current cycle, instead of my reliable brand. This itself can markedly influence my performance. I normally wouldn't believe it, but I found out that there are marked differences in the quality of creatine on the market (at least in my country). I can take a certain brand and be O.K., then I start to take another brand - and my performance is suddenly falling down, I can't sustain usual training loads at all, and I feel completely exhausted. Subsequently I start to take the old good brand again, and within few days I feel O.K. I will see next week, if the change of creatine brand changes my performance.