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Thread: An interesting article i found on Nolva.....

  1. #1
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    An interesting article i found on Nolva.....

    Nolvadex is the trade name of a drug containing a molecule called Tamoxifen. Its primary use by male bodybuilders is to prevent gynecomastia (the growth of the breast tissue). It was introduced by steroid guru Dan Duchaine 25 years ago. After a quarter of century, it is time for an update about its use. What I am going to demonstrate is it is high time to eliminate Nolvadex from the bodybuilder's drug stacks.


    A little bit of history


    Back in the late 70's, more and more bodybuilders developed strange lumps around their mammary glands. At first, no one really took notice but more and more competitors grew a gynecomastia. In 1981, the M Olympia had a pretty serious gyno. This was shortly after the introduction of this new drug by Dan Duchaine. At the time, it was a pretty good idea as no one else could came up with a solution in order to prevent this growing problem. Nolvadex was popularised by Dan's first Underground Steroid Handbook. Dan even states that "this drug has a lot of potential but hasn't been used enough yet to find it". After more than 25 years of intensive usage, it is my opinion that it is time to forget about Nolvadex. Why? First, because newer and more effective drugs have been developed. Second, because it seems obvious that Nolvadex impairs muscle growth.


    Nolvadex and muscle growth


    After so many years of usage, it seems pretty clear that if Tamoxifen helps prevent the growth of the nipples, it also weakens the anabolic properties of steroids in a majority of bodybuilders. We are frequently said that this weakening effect is due to the anti-estrogenic action of Nolvadex. According to the fantasy, muscles require both testosterone and estrogens to grow at an optimal rate.


    This belief is derived from the results of studies showing that without estrogens, testosterone alone possesses minimal anabolic properties. By increasing the density of androgen receptors, estrogens render the muscles much more sensitive to testosterone (1). This has been demonstrated in a very specific muscle called the levator ani. But this muscle does not reflect what happens in the muscles bodybuilders are interested in (2). Estrogens have even been shown to reduce muscle fiber size (3-4). I think this effect of estrogens is closer to what we experience on bodybuilders.


    Another popular explanation of the weakening action of Nolvadex is provided by studies which have shown that it reduced the plasma level of IGF-1. I do not think this is a primary explanation.


    What Nolvadex truly is?


    Most lifters assume Nolvadex is a pure estrogen antagonist (which would mean it prevents estrogens from acting on their receptors). As far as bodybuilding is concerned, this assumption is very wrong as Nolvadex is both an estrogen receptor agonist and an antagonist. It all depends upon the tissues. Along with the nipples, on which Nolvadex acts mainly as an antagonist, we are also interested by its behaviour on skeletal muscles, on the liver and on the fat cells.


    Nolvadex has been shown to behave as estrogens in skeletal muscles (5). This is a very good thing for every athlete except bodybuilders. You see, estrogens protect muscle cells from the training-induced damages (5-6). It means that one can train more without damaging his muscles. Recovery will also be much faster. But for bodybuilders, the training-induced damages are a key ingredient to trigger growth. Nolvadex will therefore reduce the muscle building effects of resistance training.


    As for the impact of Tamoxifen on IGF-1, it simply demonstrates another estrogen-like action of Nolvadex. By rendering the liver less sensitive to growth hormone (probably by reducing the liver density of GH receptors), estrogens and tamoxifen diminish the production of IGF-1. This action of estrogens explains why women produce less IGF-1 than men even though they have a higher GH level.


    Nolvadex and muscle definition


    Within 24 to 48 hours, Nolvadex is able to greatly increase muscular definition. As a result, bodybuilders assume Nolvadex will help them reduce their bodyfat level. But this rapid cutting action of Nolvadex is due to an anti-estrogenic action on water retention. Estrogens will make you hold water. Nolvadex will produce the opposite effect. But it says nothing about the impact of Tamoxifen on bodyfat. Depending upon your own production of estrogens and your estrogen receptor density on adipocytes, Nolvadex can act as an antagonist (which would help you lose fat) or an agonist. In that case, Nolvadex will make you fatter especially in the lower body area.


    Conclusion: if the introduction of Nolvadex 25 years ago was a brilliant idea, times have changed. Very effective anti-aromatase drugs (such as Letrozole or Anastrazole) have been introduced. They will fight gynecomastia, help prevent the anti-anabolic actions of estrogens, fight fat and water retention. They will also boost natural testosterone production far more effectively than Nolvadex. So, it is up to you to decide whether you wish impair your rate of progression with an outdated drug or move on to the 21st century.

    Bibliography:

    (1) Max SR. Androgen-estrogen synergy in rat levator ani muscle: glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase.

    Mol Cell Endocrinol. 1984 Dec;38(2-3):103-7.

    (2) Rance NE, Max SR. Modulation of the cytosolic androgen receptor in striated muscle by sex steroids.

    Endocrinology. 1984 Sep;115(3):862-6.

    (3) Kobori M, Yamamuro T. Effects of gonadectomy and estrogen administration on rat skeletal muscle.

    Clin Orthop Relat Res. 1989 Jun;(243):306-11.

    (4) Suzuki S, Yamamuro T. Long-term effects of estrogen on rat skeletal muscle. Exp Neurol. 1985 Feb;87(2):291-9.

    (5) Koot RW, Amelink GJ, Blankenstein MA, Bar PR. Tamoxifen and oestrogen both protect the rat muscle against physiological damage. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 1991;40(4-6):689-95.

    (6) Naessens G, De Slypere JP, Dijs H, Driessens M. Hypogonadism as a cause of recurrent muscle injury in a high level soccer player. A case report. Int J Sports Med. 1995 Aug;16(6):413-7.


    Discuss...

  2. #2
    for one thing this says on cycle how about PCT?

    so you need estrogen to grow? so youre saying if i run test alone ill grow more than if i run test and an AI, or test and masteron? i dont think so

    its good to examine the use of it after such a long time but i dont think its fair to say eliminate completely

    i was expecting to see [R] at the bottom of that article

  3. #3
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    Well i did find it off the S.A.N. Supplement website haha

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    Quote Originally Posted by one8nine
    so you need estrogen to grow? so youre saying if i run test alone ill grow more than if i run test and an AI, or test and masteron? i dont think so
    yes, estrogen is needed for proper muscle growth and general health, the purpose of an AI is to keep estrogen from exceeding normal levels that are healthy, not to eliminate all estrogen from the body.

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    Conclusion: if the introduction of Nolvadex 25 years ago was a brilliant idea, times have changed. Very effective anti-aromatase drugs (such as Letrozole or Anastrazole) have been introduced. They will fight gynecomastia, help prevent the anti-anabolic actions of estrogens, fight fat and water retention. They will also boost natural testosterone production far more effectively than Nolvadex. So, it is up to you to decide whether you wish impair your rate of progression with an outdated drug or move on to the 21st century.
    I was browsing some side effects of Nolvadex...

    For males only
    decreased interest in sexual intercourse; inability to have or keep an erection; loss in sexual ability, desire, drive, or performance -- Loss of libido and impotence have resulted in discontinuation of tamoxifen therapy in male patients.

  6. #6
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    so would AI be more effective during pct then SERMs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by briansauras
    so would AI be more effective during pct then SERMs?
    Apparently

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    Nolva is a bit 'outdated' yeah but is still useful for PCT when combined with an A.I. Aromasin seems to be the best choice when choosing an A.I.

    (Look up 'Hooker's PCT')

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by BajanBastard
    Nolva is a bit 'outdated' yeah but is still useful for PCT when combined with an A.I. Aromasin seems to be the best choice when choosing an A.I.

    (Look up 'Hooker's PCT')
    i agree it just another tool

    i have friends that dont go on boards and dont know anythign about anyhting but test deca winny and nolva and every other word is like a foreign language to them and i tell them to try to throw an AI into pct and they are like why

    and im like..
    its just another tool man
    its just another tool

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by one8nine
    and im like..
    its just another tool man
    its just another tool
    From what I got from the article, is that Nolvadex can be replaced completely with one of the newer AI's out. yes? no?

  11. #11
    Everyone reacts differently to each compound.. IMO you must try each on their own and in conjuction to see for yourself.
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    I was trying to prove this very same point with clomid and people thought I was crazy lol.. I do believe that both nolva and clomid are a bit outdated and not the safest compounds to use anymore..

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    Quote Originally Posted by IBdmfkr
    Everyone reacts differently to each compound.. IMO you must try each on their own and in conjuction to see for yourself.
    If i tried each compound separately as well as in conjunction with each other, wouldn't I be on my 5th or 6th cycle by the time i realize what works?

  14. #14
    Yep.. it takes years bro. Nothing good happens over-night.. although I feel some ppl on this board cycle way too much and are deff missing other links, therefore they don't make gains year after year.. I personally like Nolva at a lower dosage, say 10mg/day during cycle and 20mg/day inbetween. Aromasin is a great AI as well. Don't care for l-dex or Letro much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBdmfkr
    Don't care for l-dex or Letro much.
    How come? Did you have a bad experience with them?
    Last edited by rake922; 08-09-2006 at 03:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by briansauras
    so would AI be more effective during pct then SERMs?
    About SERMs and PCT. I think eventually most PCT protocols will leave out SERM and concentrate more on using AI's. Whats the point in blocking estrogens effects, when one can reduce it? From a cost point of view, it doesnt seem wise. Whilst most, if not all, AIs also exert actions where they raise LH/FSH, Testosterone or both.

    Quote Originally Posted by rake922
    How come? Did you have a bad experience with them?
    Liquidex's and Letro's effectivness can be compromised by the use of Nolva.

    Letro will also lower your estrogen levels so low, sides, such as, lowered labido, joint pains, an estrogen rebound and damaging the immune system can become evident.

    I think its that their are better alternatives now, like Aromasin.

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    so should i only get Aromasin for a pct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by italianplayboy09
    so should i only get Aromasin for a pct?
    I thought my post may lead to this sort of question.

    For a newbie, I think Nolva/Aromasin/Proviron is an excellent start. If recovery isnt sufficient with that group of compounds, add HCG into the mix for future PCT protocols.

    It depends greatly on the individual. One person may strugle to recover off of Nolva alone. Whilst another will reocver very well.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liftnainez
    I was trying to prove this very same point with clomid and people thought I was crazy lol.. I do believe that both nolva and clomid are a bit outdated and not the safest compounds to use anymore..
    I highly agree on that one. Clomid is the devil anyways. lol.

  20. #20
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    So will 10mg/ED inhibit gains while on cycle?

  21. #21
    Well put Swifto.

  22. #22
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    to reduce the confusion....

    aromasin is the brand name for exemestane
    femara is the brand name for letrozole
    arimidex is the brand name for anastrozole

  23. #23
    Does anastrozole reduce exsisting gyno

  24. #24
    whats the brand name of ldex and how bad will .25 EOD affect my gains on a dbol test e cycle

  25. #25
    Arimidex (Anastrozole)

    .25 shouldn't inhibit gains by much, It'll help keep the water retention down a bit.

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