Coming Off Steroids Sucks Ass

[SomeRandomGuy]

I'm taking my Nolvadex and my Clomiphene Citrate at 50/50mg's a day, but my sex drive is terrible, my nuts haven't regained their size, I feel lethargic, I get sore easily (whereas before on the cycle and even before it I never got sore). Even though I'm eating well, I still dropped about 20lbs. It sucks.

The worst part is the sex drive. It's lame. I don't have insurance right now, but when I do I guess I'll get my bloodwork checked. Maybe I'll just wait a few more weeks and jump back on. Doing the PCT for 5 weeks.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I guess this is already known... I'm feeling it right now.

Time on equals time off is the wrong thing to do imo as you gain then lose just about everything (yo-yo effect)!

[Flier]

What was your cycle?
How much of your gains have you kept?

[SomeRandomGuy]

I mean I'm about as strong as I was naturally, but now I'm even a little worse on the muscle recovery than I was naturally, and my sex drive is terrible. Lame, huh? The 12 week cycle I did last time I recovered really quickly with clomid, but this 20 weeker just f'd me.

[SomeRandomGuy]

What was your cycle?
How much of your gains have you kept?

I did an 8 week, 2 week, 8 week, 2 week STS cycle... Basically 8 weeks of 500mg Test E, 400mg Deca. Then 2 weeks of 250mg Test E. Then 1g Test E/800mg Deca for the next 8 weeks, although I cut the Deca off about 4 weeks prior to the end. The last 2 weeks I just shot Test Propionate.

I would say I kept 0% of the gains. They fell off gradually, but like Ronnie says; your body will only hold on to the gains for about 2 weeks. He's pretty damn right about that. I noticed a big drop after 2, then after 3, 4, I dropped 20 lbs.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I guess if I had some advice, at least for what's happening to me would be this:

If you want to do time on=time off, then keep your cycle to 12 weeks, and don't do a 20 weeker.

The difference is night and day. I was just suppressed too long on the 20 weeker, and I hope I will return to homeostasis at some point... It sucks.

[SomeRandomGuy]

But it's a catch 22. You want time off between cycles so that your receptors are fresh next time and you won't need 3g of Test to get gains, and suffer all the sides. But if you're just yo-yo'ing every time, then wtf does it matter? I guess I just don't buy that people keep gains. I say no. Maybe you think you do, but I'm skeptical at best. I guess some day I'll be on for life, especially if I stay like this for long.

[Flier]

So smartest would be to wait 4 weeks after PCT do BW, and if still shutdown do this per Swifto:

I'd get some HCG and run it for 1-2 weeks with low dose Tamox/Aromasin, then begin a proper 5-6 weeks PCT protocol with your SERMs.

wk 1-3 500ius/ED (weekends off)
wk 1-3 Tamox 10mg/ED
wk 1-3 Aromasin 10mg/EOD

PCT

wk 3-8 Tamox 20mg/ED
wk 3-8 Tore 60mg/ED (120mg/ED first 2 weeks)


Or...if u´re really set on doing another cycle...incorperate this, per Swifto:


3. Aggressive PCT (shutdown for 16-52+ weeks)

wk 1-8 Tamox 20mg/ED (40mg/ED first 7 days)
wk 1-8 Tore 60mg/ED (120mg/ED first 14 days, 100mg/ED next 7 days)
*HCG 250ius 2-3 times/wk (on cycle, every 8-10 weeks take a 2-3 week break [E2/PgR])
*HCG should also be ramped to 500ius 14-21 days from PCT
*Aromasin 10mg/EOD (on cycle)

[SomeRandomGuy]

Yeah, great advice. I guess I should use bloodwork as the determining factor in doing an encore PCT...

I mean what if I just stepped my clomid up to 100mg a day, would it work better?

Last time I PCT'ed clomid got my nuts huge in just 3 weeks or so... It's been 4, and I'm nearing the end of the PCT.

[Flier]

I guess I should say, I´ve never done a cycle...getting ready for my first in 3 weeks.
So I have no experience. Go to Swifto´s q & a, and post your q there.
My own BW is a little f..... up so, I might have to go into a PCT myself and let my Cyp collect dust for another 6 mts :-(

[Dr..]

my self i dont run clomid .did you run hcg at all?

[Matt]

my self i dont run clomid .did you run hcg at all?

Care to share why??

[38jumper38]

Need HCG really bad, 1.000ui/week during 4 weeks will do the trick.

[Pac Man]

Yes coming off cycle does suck, I dread it every time. I run Clomid on any cycle that will shut me down hard, so long cycles, 19 nors, etc. I also run hcg starting week 6.
I'm curious what were your stats before and after cycle?

[SomeLiveForTheBill]

It sounds like you've answered your own question, my friend. I ran an 11-week test prop/var cycle my for my first and hit HCG at 1000 IU week 5, then 500 IU per week until the end of cycle. That being said... as soon as I started my clomid/nolva pct, i took a lay-off from the gym for two weeks and ate like shit thru the holidays (regrettably). When I got back to the gym near the end of week 3 in the PCT, I had almost no endurance in my muscles and I had lost considerable strength and size. (almost to pre-cycle levels)

MY experience was... freaking out about the losses and busting my ass in the gym again with determination to get back to cycle-level strength by the end of my time off. I'm now 3 weeks removed from the end of my PCT and I am almost there. I went through a couple of weeks of mild depression (feeling sappy about ex girlfriends and the like) and stunted sex drive, but it's all raging back now. Like I said, I'm nearing cycle-level strength barely 3 weeks removed from PCT.

What I'm taking from this is: the HCG helped keep my boys working... the pct re-started natural production, BUT it still took some time for my body to get through the estrogen rebound and back to homeostasis. As evidenced by the amount of acne that came on strong during PCT, the body went through a major hormonal shift. It takes time to rebound from that and that was an 11-weeker.

What you did was a 20-weeker and it will likely take a little longer for you to bounce back. Make sure you're running that HCG. It's cheap and effective.

Quite honestly... if I can run 11 week cycles, and get back to CYCLE level strength at some point during my post-PCT time off... I've won. Just because you lose gains right after a cycle doesn't mean your muscles are not ready to get them back. I'm making all this progress after taking two weeks off from the gym during PCT and eating like shit during that time.

Reduce your cycles to 11 or 12 weeks. I'm feeling almost better now than I did on CYCLE because I'm almost back. Just think what my 2nd cycle will be like... I might hit 400 lbs on the bench press!

[songdog]

I would use the HCG bro.I think it works the best.For me anyways.

[Black]

I did an 8 week, 2 week, 8 week, 2 week STS cycle... Basically 8 weeks of 500mg Test E, 400mg Deca. Then 2 weeks of 250mg Test E. Then 1g Test E/800mg Deca for the next 8 weeks, although I cut the Deca off about 4 weeks prior to the end. The last 2 weeks I just shot Test Propionate.

I would say I kept 0% of the gains. They fell off gradually, but like Ronnie says; your body will only hold on to the gains for about 2 weeks. He's pretty damn right about that. I noticed a big drop after 2, then after 3, 4, I dropped 20 lbs.

I don't have any personal experience with these sling-shot cycles, I've only read about them. Unless you are on TRT or plan on NEVER coming off (ever), they are just longer cycles than normal. So coming off would eventually yield the same results, if not worse, than coming off a basic 12 week cycle. I do think there is a lot of science behind the theory though and would work well if followed correctly.

[SomeRandomGuy]

OK, to answer everyone's questions about the HCG; I ran 250 i.u. 2x/week throughout my cycle. It did keep me from atrophying to a large extent. Maybe a little drop in size and softer, lol.

I have a bottle left over of HCG, but at this stage in my PCT, I don't think it makes sense to run it. HCG itself does not restore testicular function. In fact it is suppressive in and of itself, and it can cause a rebound. I was always told to quit HCG prior to the nolvadex/clomid PCT.

Even SERM's don't necessarily bring back your natural test. At least according to my endocrinologist, only time does that. . I guess if after my PCT I still don't have normal function, I could start out a new PCT with HCG on the front end and start over.

I just don't think HCG at this point would be a good idea, any opinions?

[SomeRandomGuy]

Yes coming off cycle does suck, I dread it every time. I run Clomid on any cycle that will shut me down hard, so long cycles, 19 nors, etc. I also run hcg starting week 6.
I'm curious what were your stats before and after cycle?

You run Clomid during the cycle? Why? Anyhow, my stats were 5'10", 230 before and I ballooned up to 258. Now I'm back down to the mid 230's. Probably 15% bf.

[SomeRandomGuy]

In response

It sounds like you've answered your own question, my friend. I ran an 11-week test prop/var cycle my for my first and hit HCG at 1000 IU week 5, then 500 IU per week until the end of cycle. That being said... as soon as I started my clomid/nolva pct, i took a lay-off from the gym for two weeks and ate like shit thru the holidays (regrettably). When I got back to the gym near the end of week 3 in the PCT, I had almost no endurance in my muscles and I had lost considerable strength and size. (almost to pre-cycle levels) Hell yes, same experience.

MY experience was... freaking out about the losses and busting my ass in the gym again with determination to get back to cycle-level strength by the end of my time off. My strength is still there, I can still rep 315 for 10 on bench and squat 405 with ease, but I was even stronger while on... But it's not as easy as it was . I'm now 3 weeks removed from the end of my PCT and I am almost there. I went through a couple of weeks of mild depression (feeling sappy about ex girlfriends and the like) and stunted sex drive, but it's all raging back now. Like I said, I'm nearing cycle-level strength barely 3 weeks removed from PCT. Yeah, maybe the strength, but what about the size? And the ex-girlfriend thing, I hear you. I hate caring about that kind of thing .

What I'm taking from this is: the HCG helped keep my boys working... the pct re-started natural production, BUT it still took some time for my body to get through the estrogen rebound and back to homeostasis. As evidenced by the amount of acne that came on strong during PCT, the body went through a major hormonal shift. It takes time to rebound from that and that was an 11-weeker. I experienced a major onslaught of acne during my cycle, especially at the high doses, and now it's clearing considerably during my PCT.

What you did was a 20-weeker and it will likely take a little longer for you to bounce back. Make sure you're running that HCG. It's cheap and effective.

Quite honestly... if I can run 11 week cycles, and get back to CYCLE level strength at some point during my post-PCT time off... I've won. Just because you lose gains right after a cycle doesn't mean your muscles are not ready to get them back. I'm making all this progress after taking two weeks off from the gym during PCT and eating like shit during that time.

Reduce your cycles to 11 or 12 weeks. I'm feeling almost better now than I did on CYCLE because I'm almost back. Just think what my 2nd cycle will be like... I might hit 400 lbs on the bench press!

Yeah, I repped 405 for 3... I would like to have it be 10 .

[SomeRandomGuy]

my self i dont run clomid .did you run hcg at all?

Care to share why??

lol. What SERM do you run on PCT then? Tamoxifen Citrate? It's known that Clomid is superior to Nolvadex for restoring testicular function... Yeah, I ran HCG throughout my cycle 250i.u./wk.

[Dont wanna be old]

OK, to answer everyone's questions about the HCG; I ran 250 i.u. 2x/week throughout my cycle. It did keep me from atrophying to a large extent. Maybe a little drop in size and softer, lol.

I have a bottle left over of HCG, but at this stage in my PCT, I don't think it makes sense to run it. HCG itself does not restore testicular function. In fact it is suppressive in and of itself, and it can cause a rebound. I was always told to quit HCG prior to the nolvadex/clomid PCT.

Even SERM's don't necessarily bring back your natural test. At least according to my endocrinologist, only time does that. . I guess if after my PCT I still don't have normal function, I could start out a new PCT with HCG on the front end and start over.

I just don't think HCG at this point would be a good idea, any opinions?

My TRT DR. dose BW every 6 months . Last time he said I could save money by not using HCG , besides I'll never have kids again . ( SOB charges a ton and I was complaining about cost )
4 months after I decided I missed my jewels . I called and requested some HCG . Took 1000iu 2x/week first week . 500iu 2x/week 2nd week and now I take around 500 iu /week.
I think mine are hanging around and doing a fine job now .
Not sure how much they help , but I feel better having them .

Good luck
Dont wanna be old

[Far from massive]

Don't wanna be old,

Even though you are on TRT and get your Test through legit channels (a good thing) since the HCG is barely illegal and easy to get shipped into the US why not just go ahead and order some off the web and save the money mine works out to less than 10 bucks a month delivered.

[J-Crane]

did you change your workout? a lot of people over work there muscles while on pct and after. you got to let the nuts therefor test comeback 2 heavy sets and 1 drop set per body part is all that should be done compound movement at this stage is not good either without the test natural or injected muscle is easy to lose...vary! all the other parts seem to have been covered if you did change your work out the lenth of the cycle could be the issue with muscle lose body coundt bounce back fast enough, at your waight you may have maxed out your genetics and there unwilling to hold more muscle, everyone is different
to mush stress will wear down the muscles and mind be to much time at the gym to stress at work or home

[toooosmall]

(GAWDDD, this sux. so many fkn opinions about the use of nolva, clomid, hcg, how much, how often wtf, why is it this confusing??) i am 1 month into my first cycle, and I'm still wonderin what to do with my 15000 ius hcg! why are these kinda issues not cut n dry?? (ok, yea, that's asking too much, but why isn't it at least easier to get a rough idea of what to do??)

[sixoner]

(GAWDDD, this sux. so many fkn opinions about the use of nolva, clomid, hcg, how much, how often wtf, why is it this confusing??)nobody can really answer with any degree of certainty why you are confused its you that is confused i am 1 month into my first cycle, and I'm still wonderin what to do with my 15000 ius hcg!why did you purchase it then what did you plan on doing with it? why are these kinda issues not cut n dry??because different people do things differently. sometimes the results are about the same some times the results are different good or bad either way. choose your advice wisely and research extensively then make an educated guess at which way is going to best suit the results you are after (ok, yea, that's asking too much, but why isn't it at least easier to get a rough idea of what to do??)it seems fairly easy to me im not confused at all, if I was i would not proceed with taking/buying compounds and then wondering what i am going to do with them or what they are going to do to me if used incorrectly

theres different schools of thought and different theories out there bro. thats why it's best not to rush into things especially when it involves taking compounds that can effect you in a negative way if used improperly.

much respect bro

[boundup]

I guess this is the reason why I love being on TRT. I came off a Test-E & Var cycle about four weeks ago and I have kept all my strength and weight gains. The time I came off and ran PCT, I hated life and lost nearly everything. Can't wait to blast again and do a massive cut as it gets warmer around here.

[Flier]

(GAWDDD, this sux. so many fkn opinions about the use of nolva, clomid, hcg, how much, how often wtf, why is it this confusing??) i am 1 month into my first cycle, and I'm still wonderin what to do with my 15000 ius hcg! why are these kinda issues not cut n dry?? (ok, yea, that's asking too much, but why isn't it at least easier to get a rough idea of what to do??)

Go with this....and don´t read anything else...confusion gone!
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...mportant-is-it

[SMcB]

lol. What SERM do you run on PCT then? Tamoxifen Citrate? It's known that Clomid is superior to Nolvadex for restoring testicular function... Yeah, I ran HCG throughout my cycle 250i.u./wk.

Really? Other people seem to swear by tamoxifen and feel it is superior to Clomid. What articles are you refering to when you say Clomid is superior?