Is prescription testosterone causing heart attacks,strokes & premature death? (Pic)

[suprarob]

A little while back I met a hair dresser who said her dad died of a heart attack. She said he had gotten into great shape and then died of a heart attack suddenly. I probed and found out he was on TRT. When I first started TRT I felt great and look great. But recently my Hematocrit is up and my doc is concerned. So am I. I feel a pulsing in my body,mental fog,ringing in my ears,fatigued and inability to sleep at times. Then today I get this suggestion from a FB ad. It says you are legally entitled to money if you or a loved one has suffered. I don't want to be paranoid but I have to ask;

1) Is it just a coincidence with the hair dresser?
2) Do I need to bleed out or rest from TRT?
3) Are these ads misleading or fact?
4) Are we addicted and avoid the truth of side effects?
5) First I just needed TRT,then HCG,then Estro blockers and now a self bleed or regular blood donation. Is it worth it?

[BallSak]

When RBCs are up, donate blood. Pretty simple. Otherwise you run the risk of stroke and heart attack.

[suprarob]

When RBCs are up, donate blood. Pretty simple. Otherwise you run the risk of stroke and heart attack.

Simple for most @BallSak. But if your religion forbids blood donations or transfusion not so simple.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

I might get flamed for what I am going to write but....

There are risks associated with running testosterone levels too high.
If one's blood consistently gets too thick, one should lower their dose.
If one needs an AI because E2 gets above normal range, one should lower their dose and/or lose bodyfat.

Now I also want to note that there are risks with having low testosterone levels.

The idea is to get into a healthy or optimal level.
More is not necessarily better.

[GSXRvi6]

I said yes, here is why

The protocols I see people posting on here for their TRT are insane, I don't think it's TRT so much as stupid doctors.

If your RBC and hemocrit are running high your probably running more test than your body is meant to handle. Doctors saying "I want you at around 1000" is some scary shit. If your Low T symptoms go away with free T at 18 and serum at 500, then why the hell would you run more??

The problem is, some of us depend on TRT to "be normal" and others appear to use TRT as "anti-aging treatment" and they run shit to the limits.. well golly gee I wonder why people are having problems.

TRT is not new, it's been around a REALLY long time, it's becoming a hot topic now in the news because they are pushing it like candy on the street corner.

I work with some guys that are looking into TRT, they are running around 300 serum levels, I asked them, are you experiencing XYZ symptoms, they say no, and I'm like, don't touch it then.

I just hope this street corner peddling of this new " miracle drug" doesn't screw shit up for those of us that need it.

[kelkel]

I might get flamed for what I am going to write but....

There are risks associated with running testosterone levels too high.
If one's blood consistently gets too thick, one should lower their dose.
If one needs an AI because E2 gets above normal range, one should lower their dose and/or lose bodyfat.

Now I also want to note that there are risks with having low testosterone levels.

The idea is to get into a healthy or optimal level.
More is not necessarily better.

Could not have said it better. Far more risks with low testosterone.
The hairdresser needs to step away from the salon and breath some fresh air. It's effecting her.

[slates]

I believe so. After all, androgens are taxing on the body. If a report came out saying that trenbolone increased the odds of having a heart attack, no one would be surprised. Why is it hard to imagine that a less potent but still powerful androgen like testosterone does the same?

[kelkel]

I believe so. After all, androgens are taxing on the body. If a report came out saying that trenbolone increased the odds of having a heart attack, no one would be surprised. Why is it hard to imagine that a less potent but still powerful androgen like testosterone does the same?

Tren and test are two completely different animals. Here, we're talking about normal physiologic levels of testosterone. If you want taxing on the body. Live without testosterone.

This is a great read for anyone in the beginning of TRT. Abraham Morgantaler's "Testosterone For Life."

http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Suppleme...-For-Life.html

Or, "Testosterone, A Man's Guide" by Nelson Vergel. Great read.

http://www.amazon.com/Testosterone-M.../dp/B003JBI22A

[Metalject]

I believe so. After all, androgens are taxing on the body. If a report came out saying that trenbolone increased the odds of having a heart attack, no one would be surprised. Why is it hard to imagine that a less potent but still powerful androgen like testosterone does the same?

Here's a good way to look at it. If you eat lots of white fish every day, that's a healthy diet. If you eat lots of deep fried white fish every day, that's a very unhealthy diet. But how can that be? Both are food, both come from the same fish, so how can that be? Obviously "how can that be" is not a serious question....we can all easily understand the difference in eating white fish and deep fried white fish. But testosterone and and trenbolone, while both androgens are not equal any more than the two fishes.

Note: If you ate 48lbs of white fish every day, baked with nothing on it, that would be bad for you....same as taking butt loads of testosterone every day would be bad for you.

[GSXRvi6]

I believe so. After all, androgens are taxing on the body. If a report came out saying that trenbolone increased the odds of having a heart attack, no one would be surprised. Why is it hard to imagine that a less potent but still powerful androgen like testosterone does the same?

This is what I was trying to get at, if your TRT target is to be normal, there should only be benefits. If your pushing it higher because, well 200/wk just makes me feel that much better even though 100/wk causes me to be symptom free so I'll just run 200/wk, imo your now outside the bounds of "TRT" and your getting into low dose long running cycles, which is widely known to have undesirable side effects.

My body is built to operate with certain levels of androgens, if I'm keeping within those ranges why would it be stressful on my body?

It's just like anything else, you abuse tylenol and it will mess you up.

[kelkel]

You know what's interesting Metal? Low dose Tren has actually been studied for testosterone replacement. I could not imagine that. Still have the report I believe.

[GSXRvi6]

You know what's interesting Metal? Low dose Tren has actually been studied for testosterone replacement. I could not imagine that. Still have the report I believe.

Wow, I couldn't imagine the combination of low T plus tren, that has to suck! Does the study talk about the psychological effects that were observed?

[slates]

This is what I was trying to get at, if your TRT target is to be normal, there should only be benefits. If your pushing it higher because, well 200/wk just makes me feel that much better even though 100/wk causes me to be symptom free so I'll just run 200/wk, imo your now outside the bounds of "TRT" and your getting into low dose long running cycles, which is widely known to have undesirable side effects.

My body is built to operate with certain levels of androgens, if I'm keeping within those ranges why would it be stressful on my body?

It's just like anything else, you abuse tylenol and it will mess you up.

I think the issue is that the decline in testosterone levels with age is normal and healthy. An older man's body can't handle a testosterone level of 800 ng/dl like a young man's can. However, a lot of doctors are bringing 60-year-old men up to this level or even higher! Now if a man has low testosterone for his age, that could be an issue and he'd probably benefit from having it brought up to normal. However, if his levels are low compared to a young man, that's the way it's supposed to be.

[kelkel]

Wow, I couldn't imagine the combination of low T plus tren, that has to suck! Does the study talk about the psychological effects that were observed?

I dug it up. About 50 pages total.....

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/conten....2010.full.pdf

[slates]

You know what's interesting Metal? Low dose Tren has actually been studied for testosterone replacement. I could not imagine that. Still have the report I believe.

Believe it or not, the study actually concluded that low dose Tren has significant benefits over testosterone. The name of the study is "17β-Hydroxyestra-4,9,11-trien-3-one (trenbolone) exhibits tissue selective anabolic activity: effects on muscle, bone, adiposity, hemoglobin, and prostate."

[BallSak]

I might get flamed for what I am going to write but....

There are risks associated with running testosterone levels too high.
If one's blood consistently gets too thick, one should lower their dose.
If one needs an AI because E2 gets above normal range, one should lower their dose and/or lose bodyfat.

Now I also want to note that there are risks with having low testosterone levels.

The idea is to get into a healthy or optimal level.
More is not necessarily better.

Agree with TDD. Testosterone levels are an individualistic thing. We all have a different optimal level of T. Some guys need to be at 600, some at 1100. More is not better, less is not better, better is better.

[kelkel]

I think the issue is that the decline in testosterone levels with age is normal and healthy. An older man's body can't handle a testosterone level of 800 ng/dl like a young man's can. However, a lot of doctors are bringing 60-year-old men up to this level or even higher! Now if a man has low testosterone for his age, that could be an issue and he'd probably benefit from having it brought up to normal. However, if his levels are low compared to a young man, that's the way it's supposed to be.

I assume this is just your opinion or do you have studies to back this up? The way it's supposed to be? How do you know that? It's called modern medicine. Do you refuse all medicines if you become ill? Is this a religious thing? Our parents generation didn't have the advantage that we do today and everyone here (except you) seem to be thrilled with the ability to restore youthful test levels.

So we assume you will not be on testosterone replacement? Ever?

[kelkel]

Believe it or not, the study actually concluded that low dose Tren has significant benefits over testosterone. The name of the study is "17β-Hydroxyestra-4,9,11-trien-3-one (trenbolone) exhibits tissue selective anabolic activity: effects on muscle, bone, adiposity, hemoglobin, and prostate."

It also says future research is needed. And it's one study that obviously went nowhere.

[BallSak]

I think the issue is that the decline in testosterone levels with age is normal and healthy. An older man's body can't handle a testosterone level of 800 ng/dl like a young man's can. However, a lot of doctors are bringing 60-year-old men up to this level or even higher! Now if a man has low testosterone for his age, that could be an issue and he'd probably benefit from having it brought up to normal. However, if his levels are low compared to a young man, that's the way it's supposed to be.

Who is to say what your testosterone should be at any given age? I would put money on the 60 yr old guy with 800 T level to outlive all of his friends with naturally declining T, given he takes care of his health responsibly.

[BallSak]

I believe so. After all, androgens are taxing on the body. If a report came out saying that trenbolone increased the odds of having a heart attack, no one would be surprised. Why is it hard to imagine that a less potent but still powerful androgen like testosterone does the same?

Completely inaccurate and irrelevant.

[Bonaparte]

Simple for most @BallSak. But if your religion forbids blood donations or transfusion not so simple.

Well, does it?
If so, just have the blood discarded. Surely your god would be ok with that...

[GSXRvi6]

I think the issue is that the decline in testosterone levels with age is normal and healthy. An older man's body can't handle a testosterone level of 800 ng/dl like a young man's can. However, a lot of doctors are bringing 60-year-old men up to this level or even higher! Now if a man has low testosterone for his age, that could be an issue and he'd probably benefit from having it brought up to normal. However, if his levels are low compared to a young man, that's the way it's supposed to be.

His levels would be lower than a younger mans but not really "low". There is a post somewhere on this forum with a chart and test of men's test levels at various ages. Just because you get old doesn't mean your test slams down to the bottom, lowering due to age isn't quite the same as tanking for other reasons.

I could potentially see issues where you have an 80 year old, out of shape, doc puts him on TRT, he starts feeling younger and gets after it, but does not have the cardiovascular health to keep up with "how young he feels". Combine that with some RBC increase and you've got a mix for a heart attack. I say this completely speaking out of my ass of course, assumption on my part.

But if his health is good, and 800 puts his body at homeostasis, I can't fathom why there would be issues. If it's causing an RBC increase, negative impact on lipids etc, then clearly the risk is going up and 800 is not where he needs to be to achieve homeostasis

My body can't tolerate levels of 900, it's too much, drives my iron and rbc through the roof. I'm much better at ~700. Now I FEEL a whole lot better when I'm at say ohhhhh 3,000 :-) but I am SYMPTOM FREE at 700, any higher is increasing my risk, so I have no desire to run higher than 700 for TRT, the increased risk is not worth it for me.

Some men may find they need 900, some 600. When doc's just throw a dart and say "I want you at 1000" it smells like trouble to me. Minimum amount of drug required to be symptom free = less risk of side effects.

If that old man walked into a TRT clinic and the doc said ok you have low T we are shooting for 800, I would consider that reckless, if the old man was symptom free at 500, why take on the additional risk. Or maybe he needs 1000?

[lovbyts]

I think the issue is that the decline in testosterone levels with age is normal and healthy. An older man's body can't handle a testosterone level of 800 ng/dl like a young man's can. However, a lot of doctors are bringing 60-year-old men up to this level or even higher! Now if a man has low testosterone for his age, that could be an issue and he'd probably benefit from having it brought up to normal. However, if his levels are low compared to a young man, that's the way it's supposed to be.

Seriously? That is pretty narrow minding thinking IMO. That's like saying it's normal with age for your vision to fail so you should not get glasses to correct it. OSTEOPOROSIS is normal with age so you should not take Vid D or Calcium to prevent it. Should I go on?

You may be OK with these age related issues but some of us prefer quality of life.

This is part of what I consider quality of life.

Before TRT


After TRT.

[NEFLRick]

Simple for most @BallSak. But if your religion forbids blood donations or transfusion not so simple.

There are also religions which forbid medical care of any kind. And, those people die of things which others would be treated for and be fine.

Not to knock anyone's religion but, if a religion stops you from doing something which may save your life then maybe it's time to question what that religion is asking you not to do.

[NEFLRick]

Also, from what I'm learning, there are a LOT of docs out there who know very little about test and how to administer a proper TRT program. I wonder how many of the problems come from that.

For example, it seems most docs don't watch hematocrit levels--my own doc included. If I hadn't done the research myself--something most people DON'T do--I wouldn't know about it and would run the risk of all of the bad things associated with high levels.

You read countless threads from people who's doc won't prescribe HCG because it's that diet fad thing.

How many don't address estrogen levels?

The list goes on and on. I'm guessing this may be the bigger problem, not the actual treatment.

[suprarob]

This is good. Seems tweaking to fit ones body and needs are necessary but being neglected by doctors and us alike. I am going to lower my dose voluntarily and see if my RBC's improve. I will look for that "magic" number that is right for me. Seems no use in feeling better,looking better and getting bigger is of no value if I drop dead of a heart attack or stroke. The whole reason for getting on TRT is to sustain health and life so as to be around a while for my progeny.

[BallSak]

Seriously? That is pretty narrow minding thinking IMO. That's like saying it's normal with age for your vision to fail so you should not get glasses to correct it. OSTEOPOROSIS is normal with age so you should not take Vid D or Calcium to prevent it. Should I go on?

You may be OK with these age related issues but some of us prefer quality of life.

This is part of what I consider quality of life.

Before TRT


After TRT.

Best before and after pics ever!

[kelkel]

I favor the middle pic. Such a nice pic of Lov and his three daughters.

[lovbyts]

I favor the middle pic. Such a nice pic of Lov and his three daughters.

LoL. If that was the case (daughters) then I would be guilty of incest since I slept (had sex with) all three in the same bed at the same time. :-p. No they aren't my daughters... Thank you trt

[kelkel]

Humor Lov, humor.....
Never get tired of that pic. Jealous maybe, but not tired.

[EasyDoesIt]

Also, from what I'm learning, there are a LOT of docs out there who know very little about test and how to administer a proper TRT program. I wonder how many of the problems come from that.

For example, it seems most docs don't watch hematocrit levels--my own doc included. If I hadn't done the research myself--something most people DON'T do--I wouldn't know about it and would run the risk of all of the bad things associated with high levels.

You read countless threads from people who's doc won't prescribe HCG because it's that diet fad thing.

How many don't address estrogen levels?

The list goes on and on. I'm guessing this may be the bigger problem, not the actual treatment.

I think your correct on that assumption. Also, every time a new industry starts to do well and get attention, someone or some governing body has to start shooting holes in it. it is still in it's infancy and there is still tweaking that will go on.

[Low Testosterone]

Interesting thread. Not much else to add. But yes, Tren had an enormous amount of therapeutic success for nearly 25-30yrs in many different areas. Like many hormones today, it's far more often misunderstood than not.

[suprarob]

LoL. If that was the case (daughters) then I would be guilty of incest since I slept (had sex with) all three in the same bed at the same time. :-p. No they aren't my daughters... Thank you trt

[suprarob]

Also, from what I'm learning, there are a LOT of docs out there who know very little about test and how to administer a proper TRT program. I wonder how many of the problems come from that.

For example, it seems most docs don't watch hematocrit levels--my own doc included. If I hadn't done the research myself--something most people DON'T do--I wouldn't know about it and would run the risk of all of the bad things associated with high levels.

You read countless threads from people who's doc won't prescribe HCG because it's that diet fad thing.

How many don't address estrogen levels?

The list goes on and on. I'm guessing this may be the bigger problem, not the actual treatment.

I agree. It's funny how I indirectly educate my doc and he takes the credit for it when he recommends it.

[lovbyts]

Humor Lov, humor.....
Never get tired of that pic. Jealous maybe, but not tired.

I like the video better. :-D

[APIs]

I read the same advertisement on FB. It mentions "two recent studies" which I believe were discredited on this very forum. Needless to say, the ad is written by lawyers. That alone speaks volumes.

Any medicine or treatment comes with a set of inherent risks. One must weigh the risks and base their decision to accept treatment based on their own comfort level. Medicine affects people in different ways. No one can look at you and state how a certain drug will affect you. Look at this forum, there's some people with higher E2, some with higher Hematocrit, Blood Pressure, PSA and the list goes on. Most though, appear to get by with a little AI and an occasional trip to the Red Cross. Small price to pay IMO, but that's coming from my own "comfort level". In the end, managing these facets with proper medical oversight is the key IMO. That's why I pay a 'good' professional money to manage it for me.

TRT has literally improved my life soo much I couldn't imagine going back...

[bullshark99]

^^^^very well said! I too saw the/a TV commercial by attorneys claiming the same thing, funny thing injectables were never mentioned only topicals. First thing I could think of was ambulance chasers ( no offense meant to any attorneys here) but first thing I could think of was a voulcher.
As stated^^^ a good Dr., stay knowledgeable and informed, cost benefit analysis and comfort level.

[kelkel]

I like the video better. :-D

There's a video? Feel free to pm it. Just be kind and blur yourself out first please.

[kelkel]

I read the same advertisement on FB. It mentions "two recent studies" which I believe were discredited on this very forum. Needless to say, the ad is written by lawyers. That alone speaks volumes.

Any medicine or treatment comes with a set of inherent risks. One must weigh the risks and base their decision to accept treatment based on their own comfort level. Medicine affects people in different ways. No one can look at you and state how a certain drug will affect you. Look at this forum, there's some people with higher E2, some with higher Hematocrit, Blood Pressure, PSA and the list goes on. Most though, appear to get by with a little AI and an occasional trip to the Red Cross. Small price to pay IMO, but that's coming from my own "comfort level". In the end, managing these facets with proper medical oversight is the key IMO. That's why I pay a 'good' professional money to manage it for me.

TRT has literally improved my life soo much I couldn't imagine going back...

On the money API! Where you been? Would like to see you around here more.

[bartman314]

i agree - a good discussion. some of this is fact based and some of it has some philosophy built in. ideally everything would be facts and decisions would be so much easier...

after 4 months of trt, i am a true believer that it can have a significant beneficial impact on one's quality of life - and my recent bw suggests my current dosage is a bit high. as i work to dial in homeostasis (which i believe is a great sustainable goal), i am very tempted to add test boosts/cycles to the mix to push my own performance to the next level. i guess the test must be working. ;-)