Hcg and testicle shutdown?

[Fireguy40]

Hello all. I have been on Trt for about 2 years now, and just recently added Hcg to my protocol (no thanks to my doc.) I tried 250iu, 2 days before and 1 day before my weekly 100mg test cyp injection. I honetly didnt notice any difference in testicular size, they are pretty atrophied and was wondering if there comes a time when hcg is of no help? Can TOTAL shutdown of testes happen? I was wondering if I need to upmy dose, but unfortunately I am out and need to reorder. But if I am in total shutdown I am wondering if it will help? Thanks guys!

[kelkel]

If damage has been done there's no guarantee that HCG will reverse it, although you're always better off with it to keep some production of intra-testicular testosterone. Also, just because they've atrophied doesn't mean they won't still somewhat function. You have to try. I'd consider upping your dose on your twice weekly protocol for now and see how it goes. Read the below excerpt from a current study. I can post the whole thing if you like but it's more geared toward fertility:

Human chorionic gonadotropin therapy
A known critical element in the development of healthy spermatogenesis is high intratesticular testosterone.13 In men using exogenous testosterone, these levels can be greatly diminished. Intramuscular human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) therapy is an option shown to protect against, or at least to diminish, the impact that exogenous testosterone has on intratesticular testosterone levels. In a randomized, controlled trial of 29 healthy men randomly assigned to four groups, testosterone enanthate was given 200 mg per week plus either intramuscular saline, 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day. Sperm, intratesticular testosterone levels, and gonadotropins were measured at day 0 and day 21. Intratesticular testosterone levels were suppressed by 94% in the placebo group, 25% in the 125 IU hCG treatment group, and 7% in the 250 IU hCG treatment group, and they were increased 26% from baseline in the 500 IU hCG treatment group.13 Thus, even with supraphysiologic doses of testosterone replacement, healthy levels of intratesticular testosterone were maintained by low-dose hCG therapy.
The benefits of hCG therapy are not limited to maintaining healthy levels of intratesticular testosterone levels alone. These benefits also include maintenance of spermatogenesis in males receiving testosterone supplementation. We have previously demonstrated the ability of hCG therapy to maintain spermatogenesis in men receiving TST. When 26 hypogonadal men receiving TST via transdermal patches or intramuscular injections and concomitant low-dose hCG were studied retrospectively, factors such as serum and free testosterone, estradiol, serum parameters, and pregnancy rates were evaluated. Results showed no differences in semen parameters during 1 year of follow-up, and none of the men became azoospermic during the treatment.14
These studies indicate that low-dose hCG may be beneficial for men requiring testosterone supplementation therapy during their reproductive years and that intramuscular or transdermal TST does not necessarily significantly impact spermatogenesis. Further studies are needed to determine whether this benefit is sustained both qualitatively and quantitatively.

[Fireguy40]

Thanks for the reponse Kelkel. I do however have one more quetion that I would like to add to this post. At one time during my Trt I did add Clomid to the mix as well. I did notice that my testicles did infact plump up quite a bit (sorry I still look at testicles plumping up as a sign that they are somewhat responding to meds), does Clomid and Hcg both work in the same way? I know lotsof people on here feel strongly against using Clomid with Trt, but I was wondering if maybe it works for me better than. Hcg does.??? Thanks again.

[Fireguy40]

I also want to add. I am a Trt for lifer. I am not interested in having more children( actually I like the fact that I probably shoot blanks). I really dont care about the size of my testicles, BUT what I do care about is the Much weaker orgasms that I have been noticing lately. The orgasms are not anywhere near the same intensity they once were. (even on Hcg I didn't notice this improved that much). I also dont care about how much semen comes out ( I see alot of guys commenting on this as well).I just want my orgasms to feel good again!!!

[Mr.BB]

Orgasms dont have much to do with testicles, its the prostate which contributes with 98% of volume for semen.

But try orgasming 15-30 minutes after the hcg shot.

Hopefully your hcg is not fake/expired.

Also, all men should supplement zinc and vit c.

[kelkel]

Thanks for the reponse Kelkel. I do however have one more quetion that I would like to add to this post. At one time during my Trt I did add Clomid to the mix as well. I did notice that my testicles did infact plump up quite a bit (sorry I still look at testicles plumping up as a sign that they are somewhat responding to meds), does Clomid and Hcg both work in the same way? I know lotsof people on here feel strongly against using Clomid with Trt, but I was wondering if maybe it works for me better than. Hcg does.??? Thanks again.

Negative Fireguy. Clomid will do nothing for you when on TRT as it simply cannot overpower the exogenous testosterone that is shutting down your HPTA. The cause of your "plumping" would have to be elsewhere. No, they do not work the same way. Clomid (a SERM) increases LH by basically tricking the Hypothalamus that there's no estrogen causing it to ramp up LH production which in turn signals the testies to produce testosterone. HCG mimic's LH function at the pituitary level, not the hypothalamus and can be suppressive to natural LH production over time. Which is why you don't mix the two.

[mikeyv72]

i've been having similar prob using tes ethanate and npp. testicles hurt like blue balls and swollen. hcg was recommended and was assured it will fix my problem..other suggestions? i cut tes from 750 to 500 mg a week too

[Youthful55guy]

Thanks for the reponse Kelkel. I do however have one more quetion that I would like to add to this post. At one time during my Trt I did add Clomid to the mix as well. I did notice that my testicles did infact plump up quite a bit (sorry I still look at testicles plumping up as a sign that they are somewhat responding to meds), does Clomid and Hcg both work in the same way? I know lotsof people on here feel strongly against using Clomid with Trt, but I was wondering if maybe it works for me better than. Hcg does.??? Thanks again.

Clomid and HCG work by very different mechanisms. HCG is a gonadotropin with both LH and FSH like activity. In other words, it binds to both LH and FSH receptors and stimulates then to do their thing much like natural LH and FSH.

Clomind is a selective estrogen receptor modulator. It is very selective to binding to E2 receptors in the hypothalamus, which is the part of the brain where Gonadotropin Releasing hormone (GnRH) is produced. GnRH is a very short lived hormone that stimulates the pituitary gland to produce both LH and FSH. In both men and women, E2 is the primary negative feedback hormone controlling GnRH release (although androgens like testosterone also have a negative feedback effect). So, in theory you can use clomid while on TRT to stimulate some natural LH & FSH production, but I don't know there is any published proof of this. My experience is that it can, but has side-effects that I don't like. I much prefer HCG.

I have a hard time believing that gonadotropin suppression for just 2 years can have a permeant effect on viability of Ledig or Sortoli cells of the testicles. Per Kel's advice, I'd consider a longer trial at a higher dose. It simply may take a while for the cells to come back. 1000 IU per week seems to be about the right amount from what I've read and my personal experience. I'd break that up into at least 3 injections per week. Every other day is an easy to implement protocol.

Also keep in mind that HCG is very heat sensitive and must be refrigerated at all times, and the colder the better. It also has a limited shelf life. The activity decreases constantly, even while refrigerated. About 8 weeks is the maximum usable time. I like to purchase it in 5,000 IU vials, which is about a 5 week supply at 1000 IU per week. It's less expensive in 10,000 IU vials, but then you run into the shelf life guessing game.

Finally, I'd consider breaking up that 100 mg dose of T into 2X50 mg doses per week. It won't really help with the testicles but there are many other benefits that we've discussed in multiple other strings.

[Youthful55guy]

I also want to add. I am a Trt for lifer. I am not interested in having more children( actually I like the fact that I probably shoot blanks). I really dont care about the size of my testicles, BUT what I do care about is the Much weaker orgasms that I have been noticing lately. The orgasms are not anywhere near the same intensity they once were. (even on Hcg I didn't notice this improved that much). I also dont care about how much semen comes out ( I see alot of guys commenting on this as well).I just want my orgasms to feel good again!!!

In my experience, HCG does effect ejaculate volume and also in my experience, volume effects pleasure or the ejaculate. Enough said.

As for the biology involved, the bulk of the ejaculate (~50-60%) is produced by the seminal vesicles, the prostate comes in second (~30-40%) and the Cowpers gland and testicles dome in a distant last place (each about 5-7%). it is well documented in the literature that the seminal vesicles and prostate are lined with both androgen and LH receptors. Once can only surmise that both T and LH are required for them to function properly. Since our LH goes down to zero with TRT, Your will need an external source of gonadotropin (HCG) to make up for the lack of LH.

Oh, the Leydig cells only make up about 30% of the volume of the testicle. The other 70% are the Sertoli cells and supportive network of tubules for spermatogenesis. Fortunately, HCG does have some FSH activity (though mostly LH), so that may actually be where the increased bulk comes from.

[Youthful55guy]

i've been having similar prob using tes ethanate and npp. testicles hurt like blue balls and swollen. hcg was recommended and was assured it will fix my problem..other suggestions? i cut tes from 750 to 500 mg a week too

I'm not quite understanding this. npp?

Not sure why your testicles would swell with exogenous T, they should shrink unless you supplement with HCG as suggested. During periods where I've gone off HCG for more than 3 to 4 weeks (not very often) I have noticed some discomfort as they atrophy, but I wouldn't describe it as pain. I've also noticed the same thing when the process is revered and I start up on HCG again.

[kelkel]

Not sure why your testicles would swell with exogenous T.

It was a warm day.......smaller on cold days.....