First serious cycle.

[.EA.]

Hokay, so, after lurking on the forums for pretty much 3+months, and learning the DOs and DO NOTs, I have finally decided on my first serious cycle.

I have run a lighter cycle before for sports/Muay Thai. This would basically be Winnie and Anavar...


...never doing that again. Even with Glucosamine and MSM, my joints were stiffer than a 14-year-olds morning wood.

So, to keep this short, I have decided to go with Sustanon 250. (It was between Sust and Test E).

Stats are:
Age:20
Weight:200 lbs
B/F%:Less than 7% at the moment
Height:6' 4"
*Very high metabolism (My resting metabolic rate is about 2300-2500 calories a day)

Cycle:
10 weeks of Sustanon 250 at 500mg/week, taken twice a week to take advantage of the short lasting ester, a.k.a the Test Prop. (I realize most people would run it every 3 days, but I figured I'm gonna take it easy on my first cycle).

Got Nolva on hand as well.

I was also thinking of throwing in some Anavar from Weeks 5-10.

Here is my question though. I talked to a lot of older guys and veterans, and some suggested to do a 28 day cycle of DBol as well, just to kickstart the cycle, and to help me bulk. This however I'm not too sure of, since if I throw in the 'Var, I would be starting it just as I get off of DBol, which is not the most liver friendly.

So, DBol or no DBol?

Supplements/liver or kidney care:
LiverCare (On Cycle)
Milk Thistle (After cycle, along with PCT)
Nitric Oxide (Superpump or NO Xplode)
Kre-Alkalyn Creatine

Diet/Nutrition:
3000-3500 (good) Calories daily
200g of Protein daily
400-600g of Carbs daily

PCT:
Clomid: 100mg/day for Week 1
50mg/day for weeks 2 and 3
Milk Thistle

All in all, my main questions are, (1) Anavar or not, (2) DBol or no DBol and (3) should I even use supplements on my cycle?

So what do you guys think?

P.S.: I realize I could do a lot more naturally, but it's one of those "I'm doing this anyways". I have done quite a bit of research and reading. Help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks guys.

[jbm]

IMO! too young only 20 yrs old bro...

good you research but you missed on age...

[.EA.]

IMO! too young only 20 yrs old bro...

good you research but you missed on age...

Turning 21 in a short while. And yes, I realize I'm young, but the cycle is happening.

And if I have to be on TRT for the rest of my life after the age of 40, let it be. I heard the benefits are great.

Edit: I got talked off it almost 3 times. But unfortunatelly by this time I had enough. I bench 260 for 3 reps, but with this metabolic rate it really does not show at all. I work as a bouncer. Been for almost over a year now. Haven't run into one problem, I have taken guys out who outweigh me by almost 70 lbs.

Only problem...size. The strength is there...but let's face it...the fact of the matter is, size matters.

[jbm]

ok this is my opinion

test e 12week 500mg 250 every 3.5days
14 days after last shot pct starts
PCT nolva 40/40/20/20/ clomid 100/100/50/50

[jbm]

still i hope you postpone this wait for a couple more years...

[jbm]

most members here will tell you... Too young!

[sigman roid]

Again as jbm said you still rather young, but i'll answer some of your questions i would not do the dbol for 4 weeks as a kick start if your using sus as you will have the prop in the sus to do that, supplements on cycle is ok ,your pct needs work imo you need to throw nolva in there and run it like this
clomid
100/50/50/50
nolva
40/40/20/20
I personally wouldnt use the var just stay with the sus but thats jmo

[.EA.]

Again as jbm said you still rather young, but i'll answer some of your questions i would not do the dbol for 4 weeks as a kick start if your using sus as you will have the prop in the sus to do that, supplements on cycle is ok ,your pct needs work imo you need to throw nolva in there and run it like this
clomid
100/50/50/50
nolva
40/40/20/20
I personally wouldnt use the var just stay with the sus but thats jmo

'Var was an option to put on a little more strength, and maybe reduce the "Testo" look. On top of that it's not cheap, so that's one thing that you guys can talk me off of. And the DBol is ditched, considering I haven't even picked it up.

The change to the PCT has been noted. Thank you for that.

Oh, and another question, how long should I wait after the last shot of Sust to start my PCT? It stays active for 3 weeks, so...just the 3 weeks?

[jbm]

just keep it simple....

[.EA.]

just keep it simple....

Simple it will be then. 500mg Sust/week only, plus supplements.

Still just curious about the start time of PCT due to the 21 day lasting esters in Sust.

[jbm]

Simple it will be then. 500mg Sust/week only, plus supplements.

Still just curious about the start time of PCT due to the 21 day lasting esters in Sust.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=94822

[.EA.]

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=94822

Yes well that was my mistake. Thank you.

[sigman roid]

18-21 days with sus bro

[kojak_x]

Alittle off topic but..You bench 260. Thats great... what do you sqaut, what do u deadlift. I have a buddy who's 170lbs never on gear who does bench-295x6. deads-405x6 squats-350x6,


as for the supplements, I would save them for after to help you try and retain your gains after your cycle.

[.EA.]

Alittle off topic but..You bench 260. Thats great... what do you sqaut, what do u deadlift. I have a buddy who's 170lbs never on gear who does bench-295x6. deads-405x6 squats-350x6,

Squats-385x5

Deadlift- 355x5 (as of right now with my back)

[hankdiesel]

to take advantage of the prop you'd have to shot 1/2ml eod.

[ninesecz]

You should have gone with test E if you do not like the fact of having to shoot EOD which is the way sust should be shot due to it contianing prop. Shooting sust every 3 days is wasting the short esters IMO! Test would be more properly suited for you I think!

[sigman roid]

to take advantage of the prop you'd have to shot 1/2ml eod.

Agreed x2

[seriousmass]

Injecting the Sust twice a week is fine. The prop will still be relatively effective @ 2x per week. This is what I think you should do:

Sust (weeks 1 - 10) @ 500mg EW
D-bol (weeks 1 - 4) @ 40mg ED
Anavar (weeks 8 - 15) @ 80mg ED
Nolva & Clomid (weeks 16 - 20)

Should be a good little cycle. You'll definitely pack on some mass, and strength. good luck, peace.

[starboots]

You really need to up your protein. I would aim for ~2g of protein per pound, so 200lbs = 400g daily. Just add an extra meal or take in an extra protein shake or two. Good luck.

[TractionIssues]

You really need to up your protein. I would aim for ~2g of protein per pound, so 200lbs = 400g daily. Just add an extra meal or take in an extra protein shake or two. Good luck.

There's no need for that much protein....

[TractionIssues]

Injecting the Sust twice a week is fine. The prop will still be relatively effective @ 2x per week. This is what I think you should do:

Sust (weeks 1 - 10) @ 500mg EW
D-bol (weeks 1 - 4) @ 40mg ED
Anavar (weeks 8 - 15) @ 80mg ED
Nolva & Clomid (weeks 16 - 20)

Should be a good little cycle. You'll definitely pack on some mass, and strength. good luck, peace.

Omg... For christ sake it's his first cycle and he's ONLY 20 YEARS OLD! I wouldn't advise him on ANY cycle, and you go and recommend sust, d-bol and anavar... Why would he even need anavar if he wants size anyway? Would you let the damn kid just do a simple cycle of Test E since he is so stuborn to do it, instead of having him do 2 orals, and a multi-ester test that should be shot ED? I've been trying really hard not to jump in the hate bandwagon about you that everyone has had towards you, but you are making it damn difficult.

[CptAmericaX]

Omg... For christ sake it's his first cycle and he's ONLY 20 YEARS OLD! I wouldn't advise him on ANY cycle, and you go and recommend sust, d-bol and anavar... Why would he even need anavar if he wants size anyway? Would you let the damn kid just do a simple cycle of Test E since he is so stuborn to do it, instead of having him do 2 orals, and a multi-ester test that should be shot ED? I've been trying really hard not to jump in the hate bandwagon about you that everyone has had towards you, but you are making it damn difficult.

I agree with this, its his first cycle and hes 20, if hes going to run anything maybe dbol week 1-4 and test cyp week 1-12 at 500 mg a week. With clomid and Nolvadex pct. But anything else. why?

[TractionIssues]

I agree with this, its his first cycle and hes 20, if hes going to run anything maybe dbol week 1-4 and test cyp week 1-12 at 500 mg a week. With clomid and Nolvadex pct. But anything else. why?

Even D-Bol with cyp makes more sense, but why would you even use D-bol if your using Sust? The prop will kick in right away...

[.EA.]

Even D-Bol with cyp makes more sense, but why would you even use D-bol if your using Sust? The prop will kick in right away...

So far the Prop is doing its job just like it should. And I'd rather not put extra pressure on my liver if I don't necessarily need to.

Also, I realize most people would recommend Test E over Sust. As of right now I'm liking Sust, but then again, I could front-load Sust for a couple of weeks then switch to Test E.

[Immortal Soldier]

Injecting the Sust twice a week is fine. The prop will still be relatively effective @ 2x per week. This is what I think you should do:

Sust (weeks 1 - 10) @ 500mg EW
D-bol (weeks 1 - 4) @ 40mg ED
Anavar (weeks 8 - 15) @ 80mg ED
Nolva & Clomid (weeks 16 - 20)

Should be a good little cycle. You'll definitely pack on some mass, and strength. good luck, peace.

Terrible, terrible advice once again by seriousmass.

But hey what do I expect from someone who does two cycles back to back and yells at others for not following "time on + pct = time off" protocol?

We recommend every beginner do a single ester test perf. eth or cyp (NOT SUST) and we recommended no orals for first cycle, though a dbol kickstart is allowed.

OP no need to run two orals or whatever seriousmass says just do this.

1-12 Test-e @ 500mg/week (250mg every monday and thursday)

PCT
Nolva 40/20/20/20
Clomid 100/50/50/50

That was my first cycle and with diet and training I gained 20lbs+ while getting leaner. (Initially I bloated than I lost it and got leaner)

MORE. IS. NOT. BETTER

[anabolictonic]

I had a mate who was a muay thai champ and used winnie and it ruined his joints

[Hephens]

I'm not to sure if you want to bulk or not but haveing body fat around 7% is farely low, should be bulking at least abit higher body fat. Yes i would chuck in dbol as it will really get your estrogen going n add abit of fat and will help you gain more wieght. Anavar no cause you already have low body fat, save for soemthing later on.

[Immortal Soldier]

I'm not to sure if you want to bulk or not but haveing body fat around 7% is farely low, should be bulking at least abit higher body fat. Yes i would chuck in dbol as it will really get your estrogen going n add abit of fat and will help you gain more wieght. Anavar no cause you already have low body fat, save for soemthing later on.

Why would he want to gain fat?

The point is to gain muscle not fat, I never go into a cycle saying "Oh let me throw this compound in it will give me a bit of fat so I look bigger"

[HIITB$]

what r u trying to gain out of this like in relation to MT?

[Hephens]

Why would he want to gain fat?

The point is to gain muscle not fat, I never go into a cycle saying "Oh let me throw this compound in it will give me a bit of fat so I look bigger"

You bulk much better at a higher bf around 10-14% i believe so there is more estrogen floating around to help build more muscle. gaining muscle and not fat is lbm gains. Some people bulk in 2ways BULk and gain some fat or lbm bulk no fat, i'm not sure what hes trying to do.

[TractionIssues]

OP could you post a picture of yourself, front, back legs, flexing and not?

[HIITB$]

OP could you post a picture of yourself, front, back legs, flexing and not?

really?

[Immortal Soldier]

really?

Traction just wants to see a half naked muscular man

[TractionIssues]

Traction just wants to see a half naked muscular man

Maybe.... lol. I'm just wondering a few things.

[TractionIssues]

He said he could squat 585 5x, that must mean his 1 rep max should be like 700+, for a natural 20 year old kid at only 200lbs on a 6"4 frame... Also not alot of people really know what 7% bf is...

[T-MOS]

Injecting the Sust twice a week is fine. The prop will still be relatively effective @ 2x per week. This is what I think you should do:

Sust (weeks 1 - 10) @ 500mg EW
D-bol (weeks 1 - 4) @ 40mg ED
Anavar (weeks 8 - 15) @ 80mg ED
Nolva & Clomid (weeks 16 - 20)

Should be a good little cycle. You'll definitely pack on some mass, and strength. good luck, peace.

As you can tell by his avy picture, HE HA NO MASS so he shouldn't' be telling others how to obtain what he can't

You are way too young.......BUT if you are hell bent on doing it, keep it to ONE compound for your first go so you can at least learn how your body reacts and so you know what compound is doing what to your body

you go starting off with 3 or 4 compounds how the hell will you know what is and isn't working for you , or what is or isn't giving you bad side effects?????

Mass will come with DIET !!! You need to learn to EAT TO GROW FIRST !!!

the steroids are JUST an aid to that, not a substitution for it!!

Make sure you have proper AI on hand and PCT compounds IN hand before you go starting things

[.EA.]

I had a mate who was a muay thai champ and used winnie and it ruined his joints

Winstrol is a terrible option for any Martial Art. That's been established already. I got stiff as ****.

Why would he want to gain fat?

The point is to gain muscle not fat, I never go into a cycle saying "Oh let me throw this compound in it will give me a bit of fat so I look bigger"

My aim as of right now is to gain pure muscle mass. I already have definition and an 8 pack, I'd rather not climb up to 10-14% bodyfat just for the sake of looking bigger.

He said he could squat 585 5x, that must mean his 1 rep max should be like 700+, for a natural 20 year old kid at only 200lbs on a 6"4 frame... Also not alot of people really know what 7% bf is...

I said 385 bro. And yes, I do have 7% bodyfat. I have a very high metabolism, and I do run on a regular basis. I'm from Hungary, I'm built like an Eastern European. No offense, but back where I'm from most people have a low bodyfat %.

As you can tell by his avy picture, HE HA NO MASS so he shouldn't' be telling others how to obtain what he can't

You are way too young.......BUT if you are hell bent on doing it, keep it to ONE compound for your first go so you can at least learn how your body reacts and so you know what compound is doing what to your body

you go starting off with 3 or 4 compounds how the hell will you know what is and isn't working for you , or what is or isn't giving you bad side effects?????

Mass will come with DIET !!! You need to learn to EAT TO GROW FIRST !!!

the steroids are JUST an aid to that, not a substitution for it!!

Make sure you have proper AI on hand and PCT compounds IN hand before you go starting things

I do have both Nolva and Clomid on hand, and I can obtain Letro or most other AIs or SERMs as well on a very short notice. As I said, I already have everything on hand. It was my decision to start this cycle, I understand the risks, understand what it may do to my body in the short and the long term, understand the possible side effects and everything else related to it.

My mother is a nutritionist, she knows that I'm doing this, she's not the one to judge, but when you have a Bipolar son, you know he will do what he wants one way or another; there is not too much she can do but help out. I told her exactly what my needs are diet wise, including eating clean, calorie, carb and protein requirements and so on. I prepared and set up for everything. I'm prepared to succeed and to get the most out of my cycle.

And yes, I do acknowledge that any exogenous substance taken is just an aid, and without a proper base, it will only be utilized as decided by other factors. Think of it as an Engine if you will. You can probably draw the metaphor.


2 years of Combat Engineering in the Armed Forces teaches you a thing or two, including assessing the goals, understanding the goals, "brainstorming" of the best and worst possible scenario and carrying it out. We're thinkers.


Plus, being Bipolar, and with increased amounts of Testosterone inducing a euphoric like hypomanic effect, I really can't say no to 10 weeks of stability, heightened mood and no crash/depression.

Well...while staying on the meds of course...

So as you can probably see, I'm not exactly stupid. An adrenaline junkie and a big risk taker, yes, but I got a head on my shoulders.

[ninesecz]

I do not like to flame nyone but I am starting to think SeriousMass Is a total Irony Statement! Seems to always be giving horrible advice for no reason! Why i that? And bty the look of his Avy I do not see to much serious mass there

[Immortal Soldier]

I do not like to flame nyone but I am starting to think SeriousMass Is a total Irony Statement! Seems to always be giving horrible advice for no reason! Why i that? And bty the look of his Avy I do not see to much serious mass there

Funny thing is, he never comes back to the threads he gets called out in.

Then he calls people liars when we tell him he gives bad advice and says show me the evidence.