hCG new discovery!

[bass]

this may not be a new discovery for most of you but for me it was! when i stared doing SQ injection i got in a habit of rubbing/massaging the injection site for about a minute or so, it worked great for testosterone shot, but not so good for hCG! because i developed the massaging habit and without thinking i did it for hCG as well. not good! i recently complained about my hCG maybe going bad, but the truth is i was killing it by massaging the injection site. as many of us know hCG is very fragile and CAN NOT be disturbed. while i was massaging my hCG injection site i lost effectiveness and my boys were melting away and wasn't feeling as good as i was, once i stopped massaging the site my boys have bounced back! so my advice for newbies, do not massage the injection site for hCG, also draw very slowly so to lessen the disturbance of proteins in the hCG!

[JohnnyVegas]

Interesting! I always forget to massage any of my injections. Turns out it is for the best.

[Mario L]

While were on the sq injection subject. How fast should the HCG and the test be injected? Like how Many cc per second of each med?

[redz]

It's always better to shoot slowly but there is no exact time.

[bass]

since the proteins in hCG are so fragile I'd say the slower the better!

[steroid.com 1]

Interesting and makes sense.

How hard were you massaging the injection site bass?

[J DIESEL3]

Wow never really thought about that! I can say that now no massaging for me.thanks bass

[bass]

Interesting and makes sense.

How hard were you massaging the injection site bass?

like an idiot, pretty hard for about 30-45 seconds!

[steroid.com 1]

like an idiot, pretty hard for about 30-45 seconds!

Yep, that will do it.

The massage should be moderate at best...

Well, you got it fixed now but great post my friend keeping everyone aware!

[ecdysone]

OK, I don't buy any of it.

Where is it written that aqueous HCG solutions are fragile or unstable? The product insert sheet that comes with mine does say anything about shock sensitivity. When I used to work with the pure stuff from Sigma, they never implied it was an unstable protein. Anybody have a reference?

I bet if you could calculate the hydrodynamic force required to squirt the HCG solution through a narrow bore needle into your subcutaneous fat/muscle it would easily exceed anything you could approach by massaging your skin.

So bass, bro, here's my theory, you are injecting what? a 1/4 cc? When you vigorously massage the area you are squeezing out the solution but it's so little, you can't see/feel it.

[bass]

OK, I don't buy any of it.

Where is it written that aqueous HCG solutions are fragile or unstable? The product insert sheet that comes with mine does say anything about shock sensitivity. When I used to work with the pure stuff from Sigma, they never implied it was an unstable protein. Anybody have a reference?

I bet if you could calculate the hydrodynamic force required to squirt the HCG solution through a narrow bore needle into your subcutaneous fat/muscle it would easily exceed anything you could approach by massaging your skin.

So bass, bro, here's my theory, you are injecting what? a 1/4 cc? When you vigorously massage the area you are squeezing out the solution but it's so little, you can't see/feel it.

GD can answer your question better than i can, but everything i've read about hCG including instruction from my clinic says we can not shake it and we must handle it with care. just the other day (not scientifically backed) GD mentioned not to store it in the fergurator door so it doesn't get disturbed. the proteins in hCG are fragile and that is scientifically supported. and you are so right about squirting hCG through the small needle, thats why it was suggested to draw and inject slowly.

[OutLaw8.5]

INteresting piece of information... I recently finished my first bottle of 10,000 iu and I felt like it was getting weak. MY boys started to ache a bit so I figured it was just because it had been mixed longer than 90 days.

so now I mixed up new 5000iu that I out sourced.. still a little tenderness in my boys... SO I was wondering if I got some junk hcg.... HOwever this looks like pharmacy grade, came with same instructions and everything...

WIth that being said, I wasn't exactly gentle mixing the solution of water into the powder, and I do keep it on the door of the refrigerator. Wonder if it's completely trashed? I'm on 250 eod... Maybe step it up or go ed for a few weeks and see what feels like?


Thanks for bringing this to my attention

[steroid.com 1]

In all honesty everything I've read and discussed with my Physician is that the molecules within hCG are fragile and care should be taken.

Hell, do a Google search on it and you will read the exact same thing pretty much everywhere.

That being said what ecdysone makes sense especially the velocity the fluid travels through the needle barrel and potential for molecule damage.

I have seen only a few discussions that "hCG fragile molecule" is more Internet lore than anything else...but like I said the belief that it's fragile far far out ways what one can find opposite.

I'd like to see more on this...

[ecdysone]

I have seen only a few discussions that "hCG fragile molecule" is more Internet lore than anything else....

Well, I think it's "Internet Lore."

Tell you why: some (and by no means, all) the manufacturers instruct you to gently swirl the reconstituted vial, but not to shake it. My experience with peptide solutions is they will foam if you shake them. So an inexperienced user might inadvertently draw up the foam. Just browsing through several HCG package insert sheets, I can't find anywhere they warn you to be careful about handling the reconstituted vial - you would think a critical piece of information like that would be in the form of a bold warning label. Additionally, there a couple companies that supply and ship HCG in reconstituted form, so you would wonder how their stuff would survive the postal system.

It is possible to agglutinate some protein solutions by shaking them, but I don't believe a peptide like HCG has that issue either.

From a chemical-only viewpoint, the molecular forces needed to cleave bonds are impressive if translated to a external physical force.

[JD250]

I try to be careful with it regardless, to address the other issues this is something that I started doing that helps a bunch, never buy more than 5000 unit vials and use less water when diluting and in turn decrease the amount of fluid being injected, I inject 250iu eod and with my mixture that comes out to 1/10 of a cc/ml or .10ml the small fluid amount won't leave a bump or feel like it needs massaged.

[kelkel]

Great thread from something so simple! Ecd thank you. I now do not have to flip my word of the day calender. I'm using agglutinate. Looked that baby right up!

[DaRoq]

I honesty don't know anything at all about the physical properties of hCG, except that it's a powder that needs to be reconstituted in bacteriostatic water. So how exactly is that accomplished? Shaken, stirred? And is it completely dissolved once mixed?

[bass]

I honesty don't know anything at all about the physical properties of hCG, except that it's a powder that needs to be reconstituted in bacteriostatic water. So how exactly is that accomplished? Shaken, stirred? And is it completely dissolved once mixed?

put the vial between your hands and roll it gently, no shaking!

[bass]

Well, I think it's "Internet Lore."

Tell you why: some (and by no means, all) the manufacturers instruct you to gently swirl the reconstituted vial, but not to shake it. My experience with peptide solutions is they will foam if you shake them. So an inexperienced user might inadvertently draw up the foam. Just browsing through several HCG package insert sheets, I can't find anywhere they warn you to be careful about handling the reconstituted vial - you would think a critical piece of information like that would be in the form of a bold warning label. Additionally, there a couple companies that supply and ship HCG in reconstituted form, so you would wonder how their stuff would survive the postal system.

It is possible to agglutinate some protein solutions by shaking them, but I don't believe a peptide like HCG has that issue either.

From a chemical-only viewpoint, the molecular forces needed to cleave bonds are impressive if translated to a external physical force.

excellent point, but until i find a piece of information states otherwise I'll treat it with care!

[bass]

Well, I think it's "Internet Lore."

Tell you why: some (and by no means, all) the manufacturers instruct you to gently swirl the reconstituted vial, but not to shake it. My experience with peptide solutions is they will foam if you shake them. So an inexperienced user might inadvertently draw up the foam. Just browsing through several HCG package insert sheets, I can't find anywhere they warn you to be careful about handling the reconstituted vial - you would think a critical piece of information like that would be in the form of a bold warning label. Additionally, there a couple companies that supply and ship HCG in reconstituted form, so you would wonder how their stuff would survive the postal system.

It is possible to agglutinate some protein solutions by shaking them, but I don't believe a peptide like HCG has that issue either.

From a chemical-only viewpoint, the molecular forces needed to cleave bonds are impressive if translated to a external physical force.

excellent point, but until i find a piece of information states otherwise I'll treat it with care!

[ecdysone]

I suppose I could also make the point that if you Goggle anything like HCG + fragile + solution all you get is bodybuilder/AAS sites that say it's a fragile peptide, but they never give a scientific reference.

In my former clinical lab days I used the stuff all the time and never gave the "fragility" of the solution a second thought.

One thing for sure, the manufacturers are 'bend over backwards' conservative and careful about warnings of potential degradation of their stuff for liability reasons. Having worked for FDA in the past, I would be 99% certain the product insert sheet would have been required to comment about it.

So I'm going to say "Internet lore" unless someone can produce a study or two that proves otherwise.

[956Vette]

Simple point taken is do not massage sub-q injections - it's not because HCG is fragile, it's poor/inadvisable practice

[steroid.com 1]

Simple point taken is do not massage sub-q injections - it's not because HCG is fragile, it's poor/inadvisable practice

I need you to explain this statement to me with something supporting Vette.

[steroid.com 1]

I suppose I could also make the point that if you Goggle anything like HCG + fragile + solution all you get is bodybuilder/AAS sites that say it's a fragile peptide, but they never give a scientific reference.

In my former clinical lab days I used the stuff all the time and never gave the "fragility" of the solution a second thought.

One thing for sure, the manufacturers are 'bend over backwards' conservative and careful about warnings of potential degradation of their stuff for liability reasons. Having worked for FDA in the past, I would be 99% certain the product insert sheet would have been required to comment about it.

So I'm going to say "Internet lore" unless someone can produce a study or two that proves otherwise.

Over the years I have looked for anything anecdotal that explains the fragility of hCG and I can't find a thing...nothing.

I can find, as you point out ecd, a ton of forums and diet sites where the same discussion about the fragility of hCG and caring for it is rampant...but no supporting research

But to your point on the warning packaging I think goes a long way to explain the "Internet lore" factor.

Ecd, all of your points are valid and common sense.

I am going to call my Doc and get his position on it, he's a well known TRT Physician and I trust almost 100% of his counsel.

[ecdysone]

I need you to explain this statement to me with something supporting Vette.

Where I used to work, the nursing students were taught not to massage SQ injections because it might force the drug into the cutaneous layer (from the underlying fat) and alter its absorption. Often this increases the absorption rate which, depending on the substance administered, might/might not be an important consideration. I know insulin patients are usually told not to massage or squeeze the injection site for this reason.

I'd have to think about the consequence of increasing the absorption of HCG and whether forcing it into the cutaneous layer is a good or bad concept.

[flatscat]

I think it probably came from the handling procedures of GH. Are you also saying that the peptide in GH is not as sensitive as was once thought? Remember that the instructions of HCG are much like that of GH, with regards to reconstitution. And if the only concern was the foaming, why wouldn't they explain that - seems pretty straight forward to me. Hey 956vette, what are your thoughts on the peptides in MTII or PT141 and this subject?

[HRTstudent]

very interesting... wonder if rough sex is out of the question too...

[steroid.com 1]

Where I used to work, the nursing students were taught not to massage SQ injections because it might force the drug into the cutaneous layer (from the underlying fat) and alter its absorption. Often this increases the absorption rate which, depending on the substance administered, might/might not be an important consideration. I know insulin patients are usually told not to massage or squeeze the injection site for this reason.

I'd have to think about the consequence of increasing the absorption of HCG and whether forcing it into the cutaneous layer is a good or bad concept.

Excellent.

When injecting SC with Testosterone the thought was to massage the ester ball out under the skin. I wonder if the absorption rate is of concern here as opposed to other drugs like insulin where uptake rates are critical.

I would think for hCG and Testosterone it wouldn't be such a concern as long as the drug finds its way into the bloodstream.

Thanks man...

[JD250]

very interesting... wonder if rough sex is out of the question too...

Why are you trying to have sex with your vial of HCG? Try a woman and see if that helps with your issue.

[keep fightin]

great thread! based on the nut-o-meter index age of refrigerated HCG might be biggest concern?

[zaggahamma]

Why are you trying to have sex with your vial of HCG? Try a woman and see if that helps with your issue.

lmao jd

good post bass...good to know ...should be finally taking the hcg plunge...should be an interesting story since been on trt for almost 6 years without

[flatscat]

Gonna be interesting what differences if any you notice JP - what made you decide to start now? Just curious.....

[956Vette]

thoughts on the peptides in MTII or PT141 and this subject?

Melanotan II and PT-141 peptides should be injected subq w/ proper procedure, not massaging post injection. this is important because you want Melanotan peptides to absorb into the system at a slower rate. had either MTII or PT141 enter the body via the muscle, effects can be immediate...meaning vomiting within seconds (had too much be administered, too quick) potentially. In my experience water soluble peptide hormones that are not long chain/etc are durable, more than less

[flatscat]

thanks bro

[zaggahamma]

Gonna be interesting what differences if any you notice JP - what made you decide to start now? Just curious.....

really?, would have thought i would have heard doubts before now

[bass]

lmao jd

good post bass...good to know ...should be finally taking the hcg plunge...should be an interesting story since been on trt for almost 6 years without

good for you JP, keep us posted! is this prescribed by your doc or you doing it on your own, and what is your dose and frequency?

[zaggahamma]

good for you JP, keep us posted! is this prescribed by your doc or you doing it on your own, and what is your dose and frequency?

i havent got it yet! will prolly be asking you guys for a starting dose in about a month maybe a lil less