Congestive heart failure and AAS

[BBJT200]

Congestive heart failure is a big deal to begin with. It's not really something that can be cured...but treated.

Will AAS use have a major effect on worsening the issue?

[Bonaparte]

Bad idea. It will increase BP, adding more strain to an already failing heart. Heavy lifting in general should be avoided, IMO, as it contributes to left ventricular hypertrophy. Stick to light cardio if you want to live a while.

[Times Roman]

I think most would agree that the answer is "NO".

Where you see it in the news quite often are the pros that use massive amounts, and for very long periods of time, without breaks.

If you use it sensibly, with moderate doses, and sufficient breaks between cycles, you'll be ok.

[Times Roman]

OK. I read the question wrong. I thought he was asking if AAS will increase the risk of congestive heart failure

[BBJT200]

Wonderful. I've got some thinking to do.
f****

[Hazard]

Wonderful. I've got some thinking to do.
f****

If you have congestive heart failure it would seem to me that you don't have much thinking to do. I sure as hell would't be starting any cycles.

~Haz~

[BBJT200]

I've had the signs of it for a little over 6 months
Shortness of breath, fluid retention, irregular heartbeat, bad ekg results, etc. but haven't officially been diagnosed. I've been avoiding getting to cosy with the doc because I had a hard enough time getting my ADHD treated because of my EKG results. Honestly, i'd rather die in five years with managed ADHD than die in 50 and be (practically)mentally handicapped like I am with out meds

I just did a bloodletting session in my sink and my blood is thicker than refrigerated table syrup. 150mL took me about fifteen minutes....
I already feel SO much better it's dumb.--and no, i'm not dehydrated.
Thinking clearer, I can breathe easier, my eyesight is actually noticeably better? I'm thinking that if I had waited much longer I could have landed in the ER....

Going to try to fill a liter of blood tonight and see how things play out. Judging by how much better I feel right now even after that small amount, it could just be as simple as that causing the symptoms of CHF

Once I get paid again, i'm going to order a private blood panel on RBC and all that good stuff.

[BBJT200]

F***

I haven't felt 'good' in months. thank you to Bass who made that post on self-bleeding.

[Sgt. Hartman]

If you don't trust your dr, that's fine, I get it, but find one that you can.

This is not something you're capable of diagnosing and/or treating on your own.

And I'd forget about steroids altogether until you figure out what's going on.

Are you on trt?

[crazy mike]

Wow Eric, that's too bad about your illness. My father was an MD and was crying one night when he was taking his BP with my mom the in the room. She say he was so mad and upset he cried to her and said you know I'm dying and I'm a good doctor and I can't do anything to stop this, I'm just going to die here with you some night. Well he did just that watching TV with my mom 6 months later.
....crazy mike

[Bonaparte]

How old are you?
Stats?

[Java Man]

OK. I read the question wrong. I thought he was asking if AAS will increase the risk of congestive heart failure

As opposed to someone who had already been diagnosed? Because that's how I read.it too at first. I disagree either way. Lifting heavy increases left ventricular hypertrophy, but to say something like that I should be citing sources. I don't have time nor the inclination to do so.at the moment but top that with known effects on raising bp and hypercholesterolemia from aas use I believe that.it does increase the risk of CHF and Atherosclerosis later on in life when compared to a healthy individual who does.not use exogenous hormones and only exercises moderately ie not extremely heavy. Such as Jack Lallane. Incredible endurance and very strong but not huge and I'd bet my retirement he never used. He also lived to be 97 and was probably doing chin-ups in his hospital bed when he passedd on.

[Java Man]

Oh and OP, if you think you may already have symptoms of CHF I would advise you to tell your doctor immediately of your symptoms and suspicions and by no means start an exercise plan or even consider hormones until you know exactly what its going on with your cardiovascular system. I'm going to stop there because I'm not a physician, even so I wouldn't be your physician even if I was one therefore I can't advise you to do anything except see your physician! Now! And don't mess with aas if you have LVH or CHF.

[BBJT200]

I've been messing with AAS since August. The symptoms have gotten worse with higher dosages i've noticed. After the last few hours and feeling SO INCREDIBLY WELL after feeling so incredibly sick for so long, I am seriously convinced that it had something to do with high RBC

I'm going to talk to my physician next week depending on how things play out over the next few days. I drained about half a liter of blood, and 3/4 of it ended up as a solid gel by the time i was done bloodletting.
I'm going to do this a few times more over the next few days until my blood is a normal viscosity...otherwise i'm going to talk to my doctor.

*My heart is beating at a normal intensity, rather than thumping in my chest like it has been for a while
*my shortness of breath is gone
*energy levels are through the roof like they should be
*my head is clear for the first time in months

honestly I feel f****** amazing. i havent felt this well in 4-5+ months

[BBJT200]

How old are you?
Stats?

I'm 21. On TRT as of last fall - primary
5'9" 198lbs currently. estimated 15-16% bodyfat, picture comparison
About a month ago I was at 188lbs 10-11% bodyfat, water tested.
Since then ive felt worse, and worse, and worse and just been binge eating my feelings away and sleeping and feeling terrible.
gained in the ballpark of 10lbs, probably all fat.

[BBJT200]

Wow Eric, that's too bad about your illness. My father was an MD and was crying one night when he was taking his BP with my mom the in the room. She say he was so mad and upset he cried to her and said you know I'm dying and I'm a good doctor and I can't do anything to stop this, I'm just going to die here with you some night. Well he did just that watching TV with my mom 6 months later.
....crazy mike

We may be in luck. Those signs and symptoms that i've been hiding from for the last 6ish months because I was afraid of what i'd find may be less of an issue than I thought.
After bloodletting, a ton of those symptoms are gone. May have just been extremely high RBC as my blood is 75% solids in the jar I drained it into...

[BBJT200]

If you don't trust your dr, that's fine, I get it, but find one that you can.

This is not something you're capable of diagnosing and/or treating on your own.

And I'd forget about steroids altogether until you figure out what's going on.

Are you on trt?

Yes, I'm on TRT.
I was put on it last fall.
Since then, i've been forced financially to do it myself. I make my own and it costs almost nothing, whereas TRT is nowhere near affordable for me at the moment. I'm on the verge of losing my apartment and my car if my work situation doesnt improve soon. I worked as a model but lost my job over feeling so ill and destroying my body over the last month with comfort food. Just couldn't control myself, its unlike my usual self

[ChelseaNYC]

Yes, I'm on TRT.
I was put on it last fall.
Since then, i've been forced financially to do it myself. I make my own and it costs almost nothing, whereas TRT is nowhere near affordable for me at the moment. I'm on the verge of losing my apartment and my car if my work situation doesnt improve soon. I worked as a model but lost my job over feeling so ill and destroying my body over the last month with comfort food. Just couldn't control myself, its unlike my usual self

This is all a real sad story.

You need help bro. This is addiction speaking and clouding your mind. You're 21. You're poor. You can rack up $100K in medical bills today and declare bankruptcy next year with no serious consequences. I can tell you that you're not going to be buying a house anytime in the next 7 years if this is where you're at right now.

You need to quit all substances and get to a doctor, ASAP. I seriously hope you're not taking amphetamine right now for ADHD. That would be profoundly stupid.

Positive: the RBC is a real possibility. I have experienced similar side effects and donating blood helped. I still think you need to see a doctor.

[Bonaparte]

You don't have CHF at 21.
And you don't have a hematocrit of 75. That's impossible. Blood always coagulates into a gel outside the body (though you probably did have an elevated hematocrit).
You need psychiatric help for this stress you're under that is triggering your hypochondriasis and histrionic behavior (I'm serious).

And what does this TRT protocol of yours involve?

[BBJT200]

You don't have CHF at 21.
And you don't have a hematocrit of 75. That's impossible. Blood always coagulates into a gel outside the body (though you probably did have an elevated hematocrit).
You need psychiatric help for this stress you're under that is triggering your hypochondriasis and histrionic behavior (I'm serious).

And what does this TRT protocol of yours involve?

I don't disagree with you, Bonaparte.
I've had psychiatric help, and it did nothing but make me worse. I know, there are better doctors out there. One step at a time, though.
I'm completely on my own and am trying not to drown financially before I worry about tackling those issues again.
I have always been an extremely high-stress individual, and definitely has helped initiate to a lot of my poor choices.

I don't understand the scale that hematocrit is measured on, but when blood doesn't flow and merely drips from an artery as your heart pumps, it's pretty damn thick.
Almost immediately after draining, I felt a very noticeable difference in my breathing and fatigue levels, as well as mental clarity. I've been basically bedridden since Thursday.


My TRT protocol involves 75mg test E, 2x/week.
Keeps me in mid-to high range. I've had bloods done three times since I swapped to my own brew, and it's on par with what I received at the pharmacy.

[tigerspawn]

I have worked as a RN for 8yrs. I have spent over 20000 hrs. working in the clinical setting not counting nursing school and working as an LPN from my senior year of high school until I received my BSN. I have never seen or heard of anyone having CHF before their 50. I don’t believe that’s what you suffer from. What’s Attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) have to do with CHF? Why would your doctor be running an electrocardiogram on you? Do you have a preexisting heart condition that you haven’t told us about? He would not run an EKG for ADHD. Why were you seeing a psychologists? What other co-existing conditions do you possess along with your ADHD? I agree with Bonaparte your jumping from one medical condition to another and never believing the doctors that are responsible for your care are classic signs of being a hypochondriac. You need to seek professional help from a psychologists before you hurt yourself.

[BBJT200]

I have worked as a RN for 8yrs. I have spent over 20000 hrs. working in the clinical setting not counting nursing school and working as an LPN from my senior year of high school until I received my BSN. I have never seen or heard of anyone having CHF before their 50. I don’t believe that’s what you suffer from. What’s Attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) have to do with CHF? Why would your doctor be running an electrocardiogram on you? Do you have a preexisting heart condition that you haven’t told us about? He would not run an EKG for ADHD. Why were you seeing a psychologists? What other co-existing conditions do you possess along with your ADHD? I agree with Bonaparte your jumping from one medical condition to another and never believing the doctors that are responsible for your care are classic signs of being a hypochondriac. You need to seek professional help from a psychologists before you hurt yourself.

ADHD is unrelated to CHF.
Before being turned down for treatment for ADHD, I was given an EKG test. I was explained to that it's a standard thing in the clinic I went to.
I do not have a known preexisting heart condition. There had been a misunderstanding when I explained my use of ephedrine and caffeine as an over the counter method of treatment for my ADHD. It actually works alright, but it's inconsistent enough not to be reliable. Somehow, after explaining that, I have meth and heroin use in my file. I would assume that another plausible reason for the EKG test was those incorrect records--making sure I hadn't "done any damage with my drug use"

The clinic I used was a college-campus clinic. They ran a program to help people get through diagnosis and treatment for ADHD if they had it. The process took around two months, as everything was scrutinized as much as it could be. The cool thing to do around here is get on adderall for false adhd to use on finals etc. Another reason for them to find any reason not to treat me.

The EKG test was done about an hour after I had taken 24mg ephedrine and 400mg caffeine, but I had no prior knowledge that they intended to do an EKG. I also did not get the chance to explain the situation when presented with the results. Since then, i've been labeled a 'drug user' and nothing I have to say is listened to at the clinic due to the mistake in records. I fought it for a while, but found it was pointless and went elsewhere even though I couldn't afford it. I still have a lot of unpaid bills from this new clinic, but at least I have my medication pretty stable and a doctor who cares about making me into a functional human being more than that extra paperwork they have to do to prescribe stimulants.

The hypochondriac indicators have been there for a few years, but as my ADHD has been treated, I am noticing a big difference personally, as well as others. It caused me to jump from one thing to the next, all day long. My memory was so awful that it was like starting over every day from scratch, so you can probably see where the jumping to conclusions could come from that. I was always on a new venture from day to day, week to week. I couldn't hold a job long because I would get so bored and distracted that I'd have to quit to work somewhere new, in order to keep my sanity.

I never stated that I have CHF. I stated that I have the symptoms of it and that I guess I had some thinking to do.
This meant that regardless of ability to pay, I would be thinking about how to get it looked into and confirmed (or hopefully not)
The symptoms were something I was aware of all the way back to last summer, but was probably related to my ephedrine use.

And no, I am not a recreational drug user. Now that i'm stable on my adderall, I actually have zero desire to drink, do drugs, etc...whereas before it was a constant struggle to convince myself away from the 'why not, everything sucks anyway' mentality.

I was on antidepressants because I was originally diagnosed as having depression. I was in the Air Force for about 4.5 months; half way through basic training I developed an eating disorder due to stress and the way that we were forced to consume entire meals in (I'm serious here) 60 seconds. Otherwise, you'd go hungry. So your choice was to feel seriously ill, or be extremely hungry. The eating disorder progressed as a way to cope with stress, and from there I developed depression (see below). I was discharged for 'adjustment disorder' and given no help whatsoever in regards to my issues that I developed while in. Prior to enlisting, I had a relatively normal life, and no psychological issues. Yes, I had ADHD symptoms but they had not been noticed as a kid and I thought what I went through was normal. Now, I have an "Entry Level Separation," which looks like I gave up or failed in training. This is going to follow me forever, labeling me as a failure. (Thus being even harder to find a job to support myself)

Turns out I had little to no testicular function (due to an accident I had a while back) and extremely low T.
Once I had my test levels back into the healthy range, I felt considerably better. I was still struggling hard with the ADHD, but now that has been taken care of, I do not suffer from depression whatsoever.
I'm stressed out all the time, as I always have been, but not depressed. My entire family is high-strung and stressed out.

I've had psychiatric help. I was "depressed" as they saw. Antidepressants did nothing whatsoever except give me E.D. and turn me into a zombie that felt nothing.
It doesn't help, and I don't feel that I need it to be honest. What did help was getting my test levels back up, and getting treatment for ADHD.
What I need is to get myself into a position where I can reasonably get these issues managed by a doctor, rather than myself.

Because of the blasting and cruising I was doing (due to being on TRT anyway...), I ended up with elavated hematocrit. This returned my lethargy, depression, mood swings, and definitely impaired my ability to think clearly.
After the phlebotomy, I feel great. All of those symptoms are gone. If I had been able to afford treatment from a doctor, the hematocrit would have already been noticed and taken care of.

It's unfortunate that once you get labeled as having depression, legitimate or not, you are also labeled a headcase. Anything you say is less credible, and it's incredibly frustrating.

[tigerspawn]

I understand where you’re coming from. I have suffered from ADHD my entire life also. Like you I take nothing for it. I have the hyper focused aspect of the condition that makes it hard for you to multitask. Fortunately for me ever since I was young my family has forced me to multitask.
The lethargy, depression, mood swings, and impaired ability to think clearly can all be symptoms or related aspects of ADHD. From some of your own statements above I believe that you were depressed. It’s nothing to be ashamed of we all suffer from depression from time to time. The thing to remember is never give up never stop moving forward. The reason that your antidepressants weren’t working is that people with ADHD react differently to m***. Most doctors don’t take that into consideration when treating patients. Most believe that the same m*** should work for everyone.

You Cleary have had ADHD for years and it has made life difficult for you. Have you applied for disability based on your ADHD? You clearly qualify for it. You should be able to get state medical insurance and money to help you pay bills.

[BBJT200]

You Cleary have had ADHD for years and it has made life difficult for you. Have you applied for disability based on your ADHD? You clearly qualify for it. You should be able to get state medical insurance and money to help you pay bills.

seriously? I qualify to work with the disability center on campus to help with testing, quiet classrooms, etc...but I didn't know I could actually get disability and insurance because of it.
I'm definitely going to look into that. thank you for your advice!