Post PCT, High Estrogen, WTF?

[Keep_It_Moving]

So let me try and make this short and straight to the point...
Taking a 420mg test C cycle, was taking Adex .5mg 3x week, I aborted in the 5th week and waited two weeks then hit it with my PCT, nolva 40/40/20/20 and clomid 50/50/50/50

Now I aborted due to gyno like symptoms... which have come and gone depending on the day, lol....

I'm still on 40mg/day of Tamoxifen to ward off any lingering gyno, (I've read a lot of articles that this can be effective, so I'm giving it a try) if it doesn't work I'll switch to Raloxifene 60mg/day.

Had bloodwork done in 2nd week post PCT (2 weeks after PCT was completed)
and here is where my results are at that are alarming!!!
E2 = 96 range <39
Total test = 1152 range 248-850

What's the deal? and should I be taking an AI to help lower my e2?
Thanks guys!

[songdog]

I would have to say your Adex was bunk.

[Turkish Juicer]

^^^ Most likely.

As is, 0.5mg of Arimidex is more than enough for even the most estrogen sensitive juicer when the dosage of weekly Test is only 420mg, which leaves me also thinking that your Arimidex was bunk.

[BBrian]

Wouldn't his estrogen rebound once he halted the intake of an AI? Nolvadex will compete for the E2 receptors, but do nothing to lower estradiol. Help me out here, because this looks normal to me in regards to taking Arimidex.

[auswest]

Did you continue adex upto pct?

[Keep_It_Moving]

Did you continue adex upto pct?

I did continue adex up until PCT

[AD]

i suggest you decrease your nolva or maybe even stop it if your gyno is already gone. at 40mg ed, its almost like you're still on a PCT. this will continue to raise your natty test, which will naturally aromatise into estro.

after you stop the nolva, your test will return to baseline, estro will also decrease, hopefully back to normal.

[AD]

if your bf% is high, that may contribute to the aromatisation too.

[Keep_It_Moving]

if your bf% is high, that may contribute to the aromatisation too.

It is a little bit more than I would like 15% ish....

[gearbox]

When exactly did you stop using the ai. And start the serm.
Cause you did pct at the right time

[Keep_It_Moving]

When exactly did you stop using the ai. And start the serm.
Cause you did pct at the right time

Stop using the AI 48 hrs before starting PCT. I've popped a few aromasin 12.5mg here and there throughout pct to help when I started feeling aches and sensitivity in chest/nips area.

[Keep_It_Moving]

Here are my results guys.... My endo said my pituitary is overcompensating and this is normal (she knows the deal)... but said that I have a bit of Hypothyroidism (based on labs prior to me taking Tetosterone) and prescribed me levothyroxine 25mcg 1x day... any advice on this? I don't know anything about a slightly over active thyroid.

5/13/13
Estrogen 177 range 130 or less
FSH 11.0 range 1.6-8.0
LH 26.6 range 1.5-9.3
Total Testosterone 1032 range 241-827

5/17/13 ( I had another blood test a few days later to compare )
Estradiol (e2) 96 range 39 or less
FSH 12.7 range 1.6-8.0
LH 29.2 range 1.5-9.3
Total Testosterone 1152 range 241-827

thanks guys

[AD]

Are you currently still on nolva?

[Keep_It_Moving]

20mg 2x day by my endo

[AD]

20mg 2x day by my endo

is she using it to treat your gyno or to boost your natty test?

i think all your levels (estro, totalT, FSH LH) will return to baseline when you stop the nolva.

[Keep_It_Moving]

is she using it to treat your gyno or to boost your natty test?

i think all your levels (estro, totalT, FSH LH) will return to baseline when you stop the nolva.

she's having me take it for the gyno symptoms... i asked her if tamoxifen would increase these numbers and she said no. ?

[AD]

she's having me take it for the gyno symptoms... i asked her if tamoxifen would increase these numbers and she said no. ?

why else would we be using nolva in pct.

[Keep_It_Moving]

why else would we be using nolva in pct.

to prevent estrogen from binding to the receptors?

[AD]

Fertil Steril. 2009 Apr;91(4 Suppl):1427-30. doi: 10.1016/j.fertnstert.2008.06.002. Epub 2008 Aug 9.

The effect of selective estrogen receptor modulator administration on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia.
Tsourdi E, Kourtis A, Farmakiotis D, Katsikis I, Salmas M, Panidis D.

Source

Second Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Division of Endocrinology and Human Reproduction, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, Thessaloniki, Greece.

Abstract

This study evaluates, compares, and contrasts the effects of three selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs), namely, tamoxifen, toremifene, and raloxifene, on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis in 284 consecutive subfertile men with idiopathic oligozoospermia using three therapeutic protocols: [1] tamoxifen, 20 mg, once daily (n = 94); [2] toremifene, 60 mg, once daily (n = 99); and [3] raloxifene, 60 mg, once daily (n = 91). The antiestrogenic effects of SERMs at the hypothalamic level result in a statistically significant increase of gonadotropin levels, which is more marked for tamoxifen and toremifene compared with raloxifene.

[Keep_It_Moving]

Fertil Steril. 2009 Apr;91(4 Suppl):1427-30. doi: 10.1016/j.fertnstert.2008.06.002. Epub 2008 Aug 9.

The effect of selective estrogen receptor modulator administration on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia.
Tsourdi E, Kourtis A, Farmakiotis D, Katsikis I, Salmas M, Panidis D.

Source

Second Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Division of Endocrinology and Human Reproduction, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, Thessaloniki, Greece.

Abstract

This study evaluates, compares, and contrasts the effects of three selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs), namely, tamoxifen, toremifene, and raloxifene, on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis in 284 consecutive subfertile men with idiopathic oligozoospermia using three therapeutic protocols: [1] tamoxifen, 20 mg, once daily (n = 94); [2] toremifene, 60 mg, once daily (n = 99); and [3] raloxifene, 60 mg, once daily (n = 91). The antiestrogenic effects of SERMs at the hypothalamic level result in a statistically significant increase of gonadotropin levels, which is more marked for tamoxifen and toremifene compared with raloxifene.

so its just increased levels due to my tamoxifen use? i was doing 60mg/day when i took those tests....

[AD]

so its just increased levels due to my tamoxifen use? i was doing 60mg/day when i took those tests....

from what you've described earlier, i think this is the only explanation.

if you gyno is under control, i suggest you decrease or stop the nolva and check your levels again 2 wks later. good luck.

[Keep_It_Moving]

from what you've described earlier, i think this is the only explanation.

if you gyno is under control, i suggest you decrease or stop the nolva and check your levels again 2 wks later. good luck.

still have a lil gyno symptoms that come and go...thank you for your advice!

[AD]

still have a lil gyno symptoms that come and go...thank you for your advice!

try tailing off the nolva slowly then. go to 30mg ed this wk, 20mg next wk, 10mg after that, then off. if you feel gyno acting up again, try throwing in some AI.

just a reminder. when you stop nolva, your natty test will decrease to baseline. it is going to be a little lower than now. no way around that.

and you're most welcome!

[Keep_It_Moving]

So my PCT ended on 5/13 and I had blood work done again on 5/31 and here are my results... (I'm also taking Tamoxifen 40mg/day for gyno symptoms but will be tapering that slowly at 30/30/20/20/10/10)

5/31 blood work

Total Test 1187
Estradiol 115
LH 23.6
FSH 11

5/17 blood work

Total Test 1152
Estradiol 96
LH 29.2
FSH 12.7

My endo knows my situation and I'm trying to get her to prescribe me an AI like anastrozole to help lower my estrogen, but she isn't budging.

Can anyone tell me why I'm experiencing this elevated levels and why my estrogen isn't coming down to normal levels? I feel like I may need to take matters into my own hands if this doesn't lower.... or am I just not being patient and need to wait longer for my levels to return to normal?

Thank you all...

[Keep_It_Moving]

bump

[jimmyinkedup]

6-8 weeks post pct till blood work is stabilized.

[AD]

how bad is your gyno now? did the doc confirm its gyno and not just fats?

[Keep_It_Moving]

how bad is your gyno now? did the doc confirm its gyno and not just fats?

The doctor confirmed - small lump behind my right nipple, and very small one behind my left. I had a mammogram done of my chest and no visible gyno was present but there was a little more fatty tissue in the chest area than normal...

Still at 40mg Tamoxifen, will be tapering and switching over to Raloxifene 60mg/day shortly...

[AD]

The doctor confirmed - small lump behind my right nipple, and very small one behind my left. I had a mammogram done of my chest and no visible gyno was present but there was a little more fatty tissue in the chest area than normal...

Still at 40mg Tamoxifen, will be tapering and switching over to Raloxifene 60mg/day shortly...

prescribed by your doc? that should help. i believe its better for gyno and yet less stimulating to your natty test than tamox.

[Keep_It_Moving]

my endo wont prescribe it but I can get it through 'clinics' which I'm going to do this week... will cost an arm and a leg, but shit - I'm running out of options....

lol

thanks for your input.... will have another blood test on the 14th, keep you posted sir.

prescribed by your doc? that should help. i believe its better for gyno and yet less stimulating to your natty test than tamox.

[AD]

my endo wont prescribe it but I can get it through 'clinics' which I'm going to do this week... will cost an arm and a leg, but shit - I'm running out of options....

lol

thanks for your input.... will have another blood test on the 14th, keep you posted sir.

do you mean ar-r?

[Keep_It_Moving]

::Update::

My endo said no on the AI and recommended me to continue on the Tamoxifen at 40mg/day and said if I wasn't happy with her advice I could get a second opinion. I'm going to get that second opinion, switch to Raloxifene 60mg/day and bring out the big guns- letro....

[Keep_It_Moving]

Updated values:

6-14-2013 blood work
Total test 1176 range 248-1100
e2 24 range <39
LH 29.8 range 1.5-9.3
FSH 11.6 range 1.6-8.0
TSH 3.38 (Don't have paper results so I don't know the range, will have them on Friday)
Free T4 1.1 (Don't have paper results so I don't know the range, will have them on Friday)

Currently taking letro suicide run to reverse gyno and switched from Tamoxifen 40mg/day to Raloxifene 60mg/day on 6-15-2013.
Prior to this my e2 was at 115, I believe this can be attributed to the Tamoxifen.

My endo wouldn't prescribe anything to lower my e2 levels so I took it upon myself to give Cbino's gyno reversal a shot...

Can anyone comment on me possibly being diagnosed with hypothyroidism? My endo says that it is a possibility and prescribed me levothyroxine, but I told her I want to run a few more bloods to get an average.... any thoughts? KelKel?

[AD]

what unit is your fT4 in? are the LH and FSH still way over the limit?

[Keep_It_Moving]

what unit is your fT4 in? are the LH and FSH still way over the limit?

Unfortunately I don't have the ranges for the fT4 (first time testing this with her) because my doctor just e-mailed me the #'s but I do have the ranges for LH and FSH (from previous ranges tested with her)
LH range 1.5-9.3 mIU/mL
FSH range 1.6-8.0 mIU/mL

[AD]

if your fT4 is in ng/dL, and your TSH is in mIU/L, it seems like both are within range. which means i don't see how that can indicate hypothyroidism.

[Keep_It_Moving]

if your fT4 is in ng/dL, and your TSH is in mIU/L, it seems like both are within range. which means i don't see how that can indicate hypothyroidism.

I'll find out the ranges this Friday when I see her and I'll be sure to post them. Thank you AD for replying...

[AD]

any improvement to your gyno yet? with your estro under control and ralox in the system, how do you feel?

[Keep_It_Moving]

any improvement to your gyno yet? with your estro under control and ralox in the system, how do you feel?

I think it's too soon to tell although my chest area doesn't ache as often and, it could be in my head, but my nipples appear to stay harder longer....haven't ventured around to feel if my lumps have dissolved any.

Going to give it another week or two then re asses the medications... i know the ralo takes months and the letro can take up to 4 weeks to build plasma levels in the blood, correct?

[AD]

I think your letro is already working since your estro has dropped a whole lot even though your totalT still remain sky high. When you get off tamox, your LH, FSH and totalT will all drop to baseline. These should show up on your next bloodwork.

How long your gyno will take to resolve may depend on how long it has already been there. Newer gyno resolves much faster than old ones.