NOLVADEX actually INCREASING ESTROGEN LEVELS????

[Magnum357]

This quote is from Anabolic Review's steriod description of Nolvadex....???

"A very rare but all the more serious problem of Nolvadex is that in some cases it does not lower the estrogen level but can increase it."

What do ya think? I've experienced worsening bitch tit symptoms with Nolvadex before....

Anyone ever hear of "AROMASTIN 25mg"..... My connection says these are the BEST anti-estrogens, but they are $300 for 20 tabs!!!!

[PunkRawk]

aromasin supposedly completely blocks estrogen forever..."supposedly" ever hear how you can turn off the mystatin in muscles...thsi drug supposedly turns off the conversion for ever...

[NightOp]

not sure about the validity of that punkrawk.. no flame, but that is hard to believe. From what I understand about aromasin it permanetly binds to the aromatase enzyme, whereas arimidex/liquidex and femara temporarily bind to it. Im not sure that this means there will be no more aromatase period after the aromasin is stopped... maybe someone else knows this.

If it did permanetly block aromatase forever (life span) then cholesterol levels and bone density would end up very very bad due to the lack of estrogen.

Regardless, arimidex/liquidex is what I would use.

[Dr.Evil]

nolva will never decrease your estrogen levels. it just prevents estrogen receptors from binding to estrogen. if estrogen levels increase it shouldn't matter because the receptors would be occupied by nolva and estrogen wouldn't be able to bind.

[jbrand]

Originally posted by Magnum357
This quote is from Anabolic Review's steriod description of Nolvadex....???

"A very rare but all the more serious problem of Nolvadex is that in some cases it does not lower the estrogen level but can increase it."

What do ya think? I've experienced worsening bitch tit symptoms with Nolvadex before....

Anyone ever hear of "AROMASTIN 25mg"..... My connection says these are the BEST anti-estrogens, but they are $300 for 20 tabs!!!!

food for thought:

Kiang DT; Kollander RE; Thomas T; Kennedy BJ. Up-regulation of estrogen
receptors by nonsteroidal antiestrogens in human breast cancer. Cancer Res 1989
Oct 1;49(19):5312-6.

Development of resistance to hormonal therapy in breast cancer is frequently
associated with a decline or loss of cellular estrogen receptors. Agents which
up-regulate the receptor may reduce the incidence of hormonal resistance.
Antiestrogens at concentrations ranging from 0.1 to 1 microM produced a 2- to
4-fold increase of estrogen receptors in MCF-7 and T-47D breast cancer cells.
This increase, which occurred as early as 3 h and was sustained throughout the
4 days of continuous exposure to tamoxifen, was primarily due to an enhancement
in receptor synthesis.

[Magnum357]

BUMP

Originally posted by jbrand


food for thought:

Kiang DT; Kollander RE; Thomas T; Kennedy BJ. Up-regulation of estrogen
receptors by nonsteroidal antiestrogens in human breast cancer. Cancer Res 1989
Oct 1;49(19):5312-6.

Development of resistance to hormonal therapy in breast cancer is frequently
associated with a decline or loss of cellular estrogen receptors. Agents which
up-regulate the receptor may reduce the incidence of hormonal resistance.
Antiestrogens at concentrations ranging from 0.1 to 1 microM produced a 2- to
4-fold increase of estrogen receptors in MCF-7 and T-47D breast cancer cells.
This increase, which occurred as early as 3 h and was sustained throughout the
4 days of continuous exposure to tamoxifen, was primarily due to an enhancement
in receptor synthesis.

[Nate_Dog]

Dr Evil,.... please clarify jbrand's post.

It says that is certain dosages that Nola up-regulates the estrogen receptors,.. is that correct.

Pls help us out on this one.

Thx

[NightOp]

Originally posted by Nate_Dog
Dr Evil,.... please clarify jbrand's post.

It says that is certain dosages that Nola up-regulates the estrogen receptors,.. is that correct.

Pls help us out on this one.

Thx

bump

[latman49]

Bump, this need's to be up with the HCG thread.

[flex321]

if nolvadex isnt taken long enough when you come off it all the estrogen that was blocked will all of a sudden be free and bind.

[jbrand]

please note: i have yet to start a cycle without 10-20mg nolvadex EOD despite this evidence I found. i was just putting some conflicting information I found out there for debate, despite the contradicting experience I have had with this particular substance.

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Nate_Dog
Dr Evil,.... please clarify jbrand's post.

It says that is certain dosages that Nola up-regulates the estrogen receptors,.. is that correct.

yes, that is correct, but if the receptors are occupied by nolva, estrogen wouldn't be able to bind and do its damage.

clomid also has the ability to upregulate the ER.

[NightOp]

but then do the receptors down regulate or go back to normal once the nolva or clomid is stopped. I read a study where they used nolva for six months on pubertal gyno and it reduced the gyno in many of the cases, but after six months it became less effective the longer they used it and eventually did nothing, is this most likely related to the up-regulation?

I'm just not clear as to what down and up regulate really means and what affects it. I have the general idea, but what are the specifics if you don't mind.

[BodybuildingMD]

The receptors should down regulate once off the nolva. Therefore the way most people cycle this should not be an issue for BBers.

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by NightOp
but then do the receptors down regulate or go back to normal once the nolva or clomid is stopped.

i don't know. i can check on that.

[NightOp]

[Dr.Evil]

found nothing

[NightOp]

well thnx for the effort anyway

[Animal Cracker]

I hate estrogen conversion!

[Dr.Evil]

here's a thought. post cycle, total hormone levels are low so the body produces more hormones (including testosterone and estrogen) to compensate. when nolva and clomid blocks estrogen recetpors in the hypothalamus it sends a signal to your body that hormone levels are still low, so it produces more hormones (more estrogen). this cycle will stop when natural testosterone reaches a level that is satisfactory to your feedback sensors to stop producing any more hormones.

this is only a post cycle scenario where nolva and clomid may actually increase estrogen levels, but that shouldn't matter too much if all the receptors are blocked and don't allow estrogen to bind.

[NightOp]

isnt' that one of the reasons why liquidex/arimidex or femara post cycle along with clomid is a good idea.

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by NightOp
isnt' that one of the reasons why liquidex/arimidex or femara post cycle along with clomid is a good idea.

kind of, but not really. arimidex will take care of any aromatizing androgens that are still left over from the end of the cycle. during post cycle estrogen peaks, the body is actually making its own estrogen from scratch and not totally counting on aromatizing testosterone into estrogen.

[NightOp]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil


kind of, but not really. arimidex will take care of any aromatizing androgens that are still left over from the end of the cycle. during post cycle estrogen peaks, the body is actually making its own estrogen from scratch and not totally counting on aromatizing testosterone into estrogen.

wow... interesting, I was unaware of other methods of estrogen production besides aromatase. I've always been told that arimidex/liquidex post cycle works great to bringing back test production. So does the clomid alone (no nolva) effectively block whatever estrogen is being produced (despite any use of arimidex) (at the site naturally)? Just curious, thnx for the info.

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by NightOp


So does the clomid alone (no nolva) effectively block whatever estrogen is being produced (despite any use of arimidex) (at the site naturally)? Just curious, thnx for the info.

yes it should.

but remember, endocrine recovery depends on a lot more than blocking estrogen. if the endocrine is shut down for a long time it will just require a long time to start back up. blocking estrogen at the hypothalamus just prevents this process from being delayed, but realize that this process is still going to take some time even with clomid

[Sicilian30]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
nolva will never decrease your estrogen levels. it just prevents estrogen receptors from binding to estrogen. if estrogen levels increase it shouldn't matter because the receptors would be occupied by nolva and estrogen wouldn't be able to bind.

Zactly...

[Billmister]

wait i was going to take nolvadex only if i feel the symtoms of itchy tits. So nolva will hold it but not stop gyno(estrogens)? what do i take then?

[Dr.Evil]

just do as you planned bill. free floating estrogen shouldn't hurt you if all your receptors are blocked by nolva.