Dont use AI's WITH Nolva!

[Swifto]

This only applies to 3rd generation AI's, Letro, Arimidex and L-Dex.

Interactions of antioestrogens and aromatase inhibitors.

Schmid P, Possinger K

Department of Oncology and Hematology, Charite Campus Mitte, Humboldt University Berlin, Germany.

Aromatase inhibitors and antioestrogens have shown substantial activity in primary and advanced breast cancer. Since they exhibit different modes of action, attempts have been made to combine them or to use them sequentially in order to potentially increase their efficacy. In preclinical studies, combined, sequential or alternating treatments with aromatase inhibitors and antioestrogens have failed to provide higher antitumoural activity. There are relevant pharmacokinetic interactions resulting in decreased plasma concentrations of third generation aromatase inhibitors when combined with tamoxifen. Several randomised clinical trials comparing single agent and combined treatment with tamoxifen and aminoglutethimide failed to show any benefit for the combination. Early results of the adjuvant ATAC trial indicate that single agent anastrozole is superior to tamoxifen or the combination of both. Several trials are ongoing which might help to further define the role of sequential or combined treatment with aromatase inhibitors and antioestrogens. However, to date, looking at the current evidence, combined treatment with aromatase inhibitors and antioestrogens does not appear to provide additional benefit compared to single agent treatment.

Run the AI and keep Nolva on hand. If sides arise, run them together to cover every base when reducing the chances of estrogen related gyno. But understand that using them together isnt optimal.

[MatrixGuy]

Thanks bro. I will keep that in mind for my next cycle

[Swifto]

Bump.

[baba_021]

What does resulting in decreased plasma concentrations of third generation aromatase inhibitors when combined with tamoxifen mean?
does sound serious:S

[Swifto]

It means Nolva makes third generation AI's less effective.

[goose]

Good thread....

[Outlaw**]

should be a sticky..

[Swifto]

Lets get this thread read!

[SS1476]

This is now bookmarked ,
thanks again swifto. All this
time here, and I have read
so many using both.

[Outlaw**]

its in the sticky for cycles for newbies to use both.

[Swifto]

should be a sticky..

Only board related topics are sticky's. Could go in the 'Educational Forum' for newbs though.

[Outlaw**]

what about a sticky in the pct section.

[Swifto]

what about a sticky in the pct section.

I dont know. If a Mod/Admin thinks its worthy, I'm sure it will be done.

[tcw]

This only applies to 3rd generation AI's, Letro, Arimidex and L-Dex.

Run the AI and keep Nolva on hand. If sides arise, run them together to cover every base when reducing the chances of estrogen related gyno. But understand that using them together isnt optimal.

For clarification.....

1) The AI's mentioned should not be used WITH Nolva...because Nolva impeeds the effectiveness of AI's....is this correct?



Thnsk...much appreciated...

[IBdmfkr]

I'm taking aromasin with Nolva with good results.

[RA]

Nice catch swifto. Good read.

[QuieTSToRM33]

what about in PCT ........ such as the case in PHEEDNO'S PCT

[Booz]

what about in PCT ........ such as the case in PHEEDNO'S PCT

and anthony roberts new pct???

[stupidhippo]

but really that study only states that its not any more effective in reducing tumor growth.. our situation is a lil different..

[Pinnacle]

but really that study only states that its not any more effective in reducing tumor growth.. our situation is a lil different..

lol..it took 19 posts before someone actually read the study..lmaoooooooooooo

[RA]

details pinn details.

[Pinnacle]

details pinn details.

Not sure I understand what you mean by that?

Anyway,I don't find the above advice sound by any means.Does this sound like sound advice to you?You mean to tell me based on this one study(which isn't relevant to BBers in the first place) this is what you'd recommend to a new person running thier first cycle and aren't sure if they are gyno prone or not?

Quote Swifto:"Run the AI and keep Nolva on hand. If sides arise, run them together to cover every base when reducing the chances of estrogen related gyno. But understand that using them together isnt optimal."End quote Swifto..


~Pinnacle~

[Georgie]

Not sure I understand what you mean by that?

Anyway,I don't find the above advice sound by any means.Does this sound like sound advice to you?You mean to tell me based on this one study(which isn't relevant to BBers in the first place) this is what you'd recommend to a new person running thier first cycle and aren't sure if they are gyno prone or not?

Quote Swifto:"Run the AI and keep Nolva on hand. If sides arise, run them together to cover every base when reducing the chances of estrogen related gyno. But understand that using them together isnt optimal."End quote Swifto..


~Pinnacle~

This is actually old news. Hooker states and cites studies in his "steroid profiles" that nolva reduces the effectivness of letro and arimidex.

EDITED: I just looked through his profiles, and I stand corrected, it is not in there. However, I remember him posting some studies and talking about how nolva reduces the effectivness of letro and arimidex by a very large percentage, somewhere around here.

[Georgie]

Can't find where hooker was talking about it, but found some info that
bask8kace posted awhile ago. Important part is in red.

Arimidex (Ldex, Anastrozole), Femara (Letrozole), Nolvadex(Tamoxifen) & Cholesterol

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ORIGINALLY POSTED BY SUPERCHICKEN, stolen by tony touch from crankenstein, and pilfered by BASK8KACE

There has been a lot of talk on other boards about this lately, and a lot of bad information thrown out as well. I wanted to share the good info.

Somone keeps posting how letrozole is the strongest and doesnt negatively affect cholesterol. This is not true. Letrozole is NOT the strongest and it DOES affect cholesterol/lipid profile negatively.

Aromasin (Exemestane) is the best. This is why:

Both Arimidex/Ldex/Anastrozole and Femara/Letrozole hurt your cholesterol. The way these 2 anti e's work is they inhibit the aromatase enzyme. By inhibiting the enzyme which converts testosterone to estrogen, you reduce or even come close to eliminating estrogen production. We need some estrogen to be healthy. The major drawback to this is without estrogen, your lipid profile gets F***ed.

Aromasin (Exemestane) works differently. It does not stop the body from producing estrogen. Rather, it makes it so the estrogen is unable to bind to receptors by deactivating the binding enzyme. If the estrogen cannot bind, you simply will not get bloated or get gyno. The estrogen is crippled due to exemestane. However, since the estrogen is still floating around, it will not negatively affect your lipid/cholesterol profile.

Anastrozole (Arimidex) doesnt cause a rebound effect, and neither does exemestane, but letrozole does. This means after you stop the letrozole, your estrogen rebounds and goes pretty high for a while, eventually it normalizes. You can avoid this by tapering your letro dose down before stopping it, but that is a pain in the ass. Higher than normal can mess many things up post cycle when you stop. Since the HPTA has a feedback loop is primarily controlled by estrogen, high estrogen will tell your HPTA to produce less testosterone, because it thinks the high estrogen is caused by too much testosterone. This is fact. Now post cycle, dont we want to raise our test levels, not lower them? Of course! So, rebounds are bad. If you use letro taper the dose off to zero over a couple weeks.

FYI- Nolvadex(Tamoxifen) is a SERM(Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator). This means on certain tissue it can act antagonisticaly or agonistically. In the case of lipid profiles, It acts agonistically. So, running tamoxifen with your anti e's will IMPROVE your cholesterol profile even if not on cycle or using any gear or other anti e's. It's just plain good for cholesterol.

One thing to keep in mind though when runing tamoxifen with letro is that letro reduces blood levels of tamoxifen by over 50%. a study showed 2.5mg letro ED made nolva levels drop to 40% of what they were before adding letro. This does not mean you cant use tamoxifen with letro, it just means you need to use more, about double. In other words, 20mg of nolva will act like 8mg if running letro. So, make sure you are aware of this because you will need to buy more nolva to compensate. This does not happen when mixing tamoxifen with anastrozole or exemestane, it only hppens with letro.
NOTE: After this was posted, Pheedno mentioned the following which has been placed here to shed light on this possible mistake made by the original author of this postNolva in full clinical doses(20mgED) reduces letro plasma levels by 37.6%(Not the other way around at 50%). Nolva in full clinical doses reduces anastrozol plasma levels by 27%.
Also, many people experince a reduction of libido on letro. This doesnt happen w/ ldex or exmestane as far as I know, and in my own experience, and I've run all 3 quite a bit.

The best combo is exemestane and tamoxifen together. Your cholesterol will be as good as can be considering your on a cycle of steroids. The dose of aromasin will vary depending on the users needs and how much aromatizing gear is being taken. Usually 10-25mg ed works well. Run 10mg ed nolva to improve your cholesterol.

Second best combo i feel is anastrozole(Ldex, Arimidex) and tamoxifen. Ldex dose ranges from usually .15mg ed to 1mg ed. run 10mg nolva ed to improve cholesterol.

Third best is letro and nolvadex. Letro doses usually range from 1-2.5mg ed. run 20mg ed nolva to improve cholesterol w/ letro.

You do not need to run nolva with any of these 3, i do recomend it though as it will improve cholesterol compared to using the anti e's alone without nolva.

So, in order of strength, on a dose per dose basis(not mg per mg) aromasin is def the strognest, next is letro, and then ldex.

I've been running aromasin now for about 4 months, I wont switch back to ldex or letro. It works much better and it's much healthier for cholesterol profiles.

I think we all need to stop only worrying about side effects that we can see visually. Cholesterol KILLS many people around the world everyday(well not directly kills but leads to it). steroids are hUrting us badly in this sense. steroids do mess our cholesterol up pretty badly, and we will pay for it later in life. Now not many of us are going to stop using gear because of that, but we should at least take the proper other drugs to help minimize.

Aromasin is only a little bit more expensive than ldex or letro, and its actually about the same price as many places sell ldex or letro for. But it's more powerful and healthier. People spend money all the time on steroids which dont have as many side effects as some of the harsher, cheaper steroids. A few extra bucks for the proper anti e's is def money well spent.

[Outlaw**]

more confusion....

[stupidhippo]

still, even if thats the case its still not good advise and the study certainly doesnt give very much useful info to this matter. I also remember that it is so that nolva reduces the effectiveness of AI's but it still doesnt mean they wouldnt be usable in certain situations together even.. they have completely diffrent mechanism of action...

I meant the first study in this thread..

I agree it is confusing and a lot more info is needed.. I think ppl like to oversimplify things and therefore sometimes make inaccurate conclusions. I bet in 10 years ppl will be looking at some of the things we do now the same way we look at pyramiding now. My point: at present we can make theories and all but it will take a lot more studies etc b4 we can say for sure what is the best and most effective way to do that..

[Outlaw**]

seems like everyone has a different opinion on this.

[Pinnacle]

Can't find where hooker was talking about it, but found some info that
bask8kace posted awhile ago. Important part is in red.

NOTE: After this was posted, Pheedno mentioned the following which has been placed here to shed light on this possible mistake made by the original author of this postNolva in full clinical doses(20mgED) reduces letro plasma levels by 37.6%(Not the other way around at 50%). Nolva in full clinical doses reduces anastrozol plasma levels by 27%.



ve been running aromasin now for about 4 months, I wont switch back to ldex or letro. It works much better and it's much healthier for cholesterol profiles.

Aromasin is only a little bit more expensive than ldex or letro, and its actually about the same price as many places sell ldex or letro for. But it's more powerful and healthier. People spend money all the time on steroids which dont have as many side effects as some of the harsher, cheaper steroids. A few extra bucks for the proper anti e's is def money well spent.

Agreed on the aromasin and what you stated as well.Couldn't have said it better myself

Outlaw..no confussion at all.Keep running your Nolv/ldex combo(or similar) and ignore the copy/paste nonsense.Some ppl try way to hard for recognition on this board,and it tends to backfire on them.

[Outlaw**]

So its cool to run .25 l-dex and 10 nolva through out my cycle. And for pct run .25 l-dex and bump the nolva to 20mgs.

[Pinnacle]

So its cool to run .25 l-dex and 10 nolva through out my cycle. And for pct run .25 l-dex and bump the nolva to 20mgs.

Yes..it's a tried and true therapy that works for thousands upon thousands of ppl.

[Outlaw**]

Thanks....

[dogfight]

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...d-nolvadex.htm

I'm taking aromasin with Nolva with good results.

this is ok i am doing the same! aromasin work differently than l-dex. i dont feel like going into is full detail but the link i have included has some good reading on pct!!

[Grizzly420]

So i shouldnt run small dosages of l-dex and nolvedex together during my next cycle.

[Pinnacle]

So i shouldnt run small dosages of l-dex and nolvedex together during my next cycle.

Oh my...I knew this fvkin thread would cause this type of shit the moment i saw it.

EVERYONE....CONTINUE TO RUN YOUR LDEX/NOLV COMBO AT YOUR DOSES>IF NEED BE UP THE LDEX TO .5 MGS AND THE NOLV TO 20 MG ED

[Booz]

Oh my...I knew this fvkin thread would cause this type of shit the moment i saw it.

EVERYONE....CONTINUE TO RUN YOUR LDEX/NOLV COMBO AT YOUR DOSES>IF NEED BE UP THE LDEX TO .5 MGS AND THE NOLV TO 20 MG ED

i did not quite hear that pinn can you say it again..........

[SS1476]

EVERYONE....CONTINUE TO RUN YOUR LDEX/NOLV COMBO AT YOUR DOSES>IF NEED BE UP THE LDEX TO .5 MGS AND THE NOLV TO 20 MG ED

ARRRGGGG!

Allright, back on track Pinn thank you

[Outlaw**]

hmmmm....

[Streaker]

Solid advice!

[RA]

Well I was kidding with you pinn but I dont see anything wrong with posting the study. All the info we can get is good and then we can decide what we personally want to do with it.

I suggest not running any anti e unless problems pop up until pct.

[sp9]

Also keep in mind the date of the study (not really a study but someones conclusions about studies) which was not posted and was Dec. 2002. Soon to be 3.5 years old:

Forum (Genova). 2002;12(1):45-59.

This has the info posted in the original thread and link to several other studies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...ExternalSearch