Slin timing post workout?

[zodiach]

It seems the going idea is to time your slin intake to correspond with your PWO shakes/meals to increase the anabolism PWO.

My question is, is the purpose of having the slin immediately PWO to increase the bodies ability to uptake the nutrients immediately PWO as opposed to waiting any given amount of time and losing the possible effects of the slin PWO?

When you look at the studies by (Tipton et al., 2001) and (Rasmussen et al., 2000) regarding carbohydrate and amino acid supplementation both immediately pre-workout, immediately post-workout, and 1 and 3 hours PWO. The studies show that consuming your PWO shake 1 hour after training had a higher protein synthesis than the one taken immediately after training.
Therefore if someone were to try this theory by having a pre-workout shake, train, then time their slin to coincide with their PWO shake 1-hour after training could this in effect raise the slins effectiveness as well considering our bodies response to the carb/amino supplement is naturally higher 1-hour post-workout as opposed to immediately post-workout?

Thoughts?

[Warrior]

By administering the exogenous insulin you are effectively stopping cortisol and providing more worker bees to shuttle nutrients into the muscle for repair and rebuilding. The longer you wait - the more opportunity cortisol has to break you down and the less effective the incoming nutrients can be.

Your study is based on spiking endogenous insulin and protein synthesis via diet. But your question is regarding you administering insulin yourself... which does give you more control over the whole PWO process. Basically, you can get the effects much faster than you can through dietary manipulations.

[zodiach]

That was exactly what I was thinking, I just wondered if the bodies insulin response nutritionally was so much greater by waiting if administering insulin with it would enhance the effects. But I agree with you, thanks Warrior.

[Warrior]

That was exactly what I was thinking, I just wondered if the bodies insulin response nutritionally was so much greater by waiting if administering insulin with it would enhance the effects. But I agree with you, thanks Warrior.

No problem, my take on it is this: a lot of damage within that hour can be avoided by not waiting that long.

[zodiach]

No problem, my take on it is this: a lot of damage within that hour can be avoided by not waiting that long.

That was where I was always a litte confused when regarding these studies, is cost/benefit ratio worth it? While the protein synthesis is higher by waiting 1-hr PWO is the cost you take by waiting the hour with the raised cortisol levels going to be balanced out by the higher synthesis, or is sacrificing the increased synthesis to ensure cortisol is effectively stopped immediately more beneficial in the long run? IMO until I see a study otherwise I will keep hitting the shake immediately PWO.

[Gear]

If you are using Humalog, then it would be a good to take any benefiting nutrients 1hr post training as at that time this kind of insulin is almost at its peek, therefore its effectiveness would be very high and therefore it would shuttle nutrients into cells at a very fast rate.

-Gear

[Whitey]

That's what I was thinking too - in other words, if there is still a benefit at the one-hour mark, you may be taking advantage of it with your PPWO meal, regardless.

Plus, you're stopping the catabolic process with slin/PWO - so maybe you're getting the best of both worlds. IMO, slin is so effective when administered like this that any "natural" advantages you might have to pass up pale in comparison, anyway.

[JohnnyB]

When I'm on LR3 I drink a shake with carbs/protein immediately after my WO, then a shake with just protein 1 hour later.

JohnnyB

[Seattle Junk]

When I'm on LR3 I drink a shake with carbs/protein immediately after my WO, then a shake with just protein 1 hour later.

JohnnyB

Johnny, when do you take your lr3 shot(s) and at what timing? PWO?

[Warrior]

That was where I was always a litte confused when regarding these studies, is cost/benefit ratio worth it? While the protein synthesis is higher by waiting 1-hr PWO is the cost you take by waiting the hour with the raised cortisol levels going to be balanced out by the higher synthesis, or is sacrificing the increased synthesis to ensure cortisol is effectively stopped immediately more beneficial in the long run? IMO until I see a study otherwise I will keep hitting the shake immediately PWO.

Cortisol will be stopped in it's tracks if blood insulin levels are elevated. Taking a fast acting insulin IM will get plasma levels up right away, stopping the body's release of cortisol and beginning the repair and recovery process to lead into growth. You will get increased protein synthesis as soon as insulin levels peak.

IMO, the limiter would be how effectively your digestive track can absorb nutrients right after training. For example, does the pump keep blood away from the stomach? Or does training increase stomach PH to level that would hinder proper nutrient uptake. I don't think that study is referring to insulin spiking at all... but other non-insulin mediated factors in protein sythesis... via nutrient absorbtion.

With insulin, the cost is minimal - so yes, in that regard it is very effective. It's the potential of permanently damaging your pancrease that would be the limiter.

[Neuromancer]

Lately I have been dosing my insulin AFTER I drink my PWO shake. I do drink my shake immediately after my workout, but one day I forgot my pre loaded insulin pin, so I drank my shake on the way home and pinned my insulin as soon as I got home. It was about 15mins after my workout and I had just finished my shake. I actually thought I liked it better...no guzzling my shake and feeling bloated at all.

Any thoughts?

[Warrior]

Lately I have been dosing my insulin AFTER I drink my PWO shake. I do drink my shake immediately after my workout, but one day I forgot my pre loaded insulin pin, so I drank my shake on the way home and pinned my insulin as soon as I got home. It was about 15mins after my workout and I had just finished my shake. I actually thought I liked it better...no guzzling my shake and feeling bloated at all.

Any thoughts?

I would never suggest taking the shake before the slin shot... it's that 10-15 minutes following the shot that is muy importante. You must have followed it with some form of food to feed your dropping blood sugar... how much slin are we talkin'? Any signs of hypo?

[zodiach]

Cortisol will be stopped in it's tracks if blood insulin levels are elevated. Taking a fast acting insulin IM will get plasma levels up right away, stopping the body's release of cortisol and beginning the repair and recovery process to lead into growth. You will get increased protein synthesis as soon as insulin levels peak.

IMO, the limiter would be how effectively your digestive track can absorb nutrients right after training. For example, does the pump keep blood away from the stomach? Or does training increase stomach PH to level that would hinder proper nutrient uptake. I don't think that study is referring to insulin spiking at all... but other non-insulin mediated factors in protein sythesis... via nutrient absorbtion.

With insulin, the cost is minimal - so yes, in that regard it is very effective. It's the potential of permanently damaging your pancrease that would be the limiter.

Aha, thats what I was getting at, maybe I wasnt saying it right, basically could you in essence take advantage of both windows via the nutrient uptake generated by the intake of slin as well as the stopping of cortisol, and then also garner the benefits of the 1-hr window with a post-post-workout meal/shake? Or does the slin intake change these factors and change the natural nutrient uptake alluded to in the studies??

[Warrior]

Aha, thats what I was getting at, maybe I wasnt saying it right, basically could you in essence take advantage of both windows via the nutrient uptake generated by the intake of slin as well as the stopping of cortisol, and then also garner the benefits of the 1-hr window with a post-post-workout meal/shake?Or does the slin intake change these factors and change the natural nutrient uptake alluded to in the studies??

I think if the former were true then a simple dextrose shake would be superior if not equal to using exogenous insulin. Bodybuilders have probably realized the power of administering insulin due to its rapid onset when taken intermuscularly right after training... boosting plasma levels immediately. Incoming glucose will first replensish liver glycogen which - I could be wrong, doesn't even require an insulin spike initially. And as I said earlier - rising insulin equals lowering cortisol... sooner the better PWO...

But a lot of this is specualtion for the sake of arguement and you bring up interesting ideas - I like roundtables like this. When I have some more time I will dig through the journals and PubMed and try and find something more. When I first joined here this is the type of stuff i would post constantly. Keep reading the abstracts, books by credible authors and discussing in Interent forums dude... then apply on yourself and document your results - and then share them!

[Seattle Junk]

I think if the former were true then a simple dextrose shake would be superior if not equal to using exogenous insulin. Bodybuilders have probably realized the power of administering insulin due to its rapid onset when taken intermuscularly right after training... boosting plasma levels immediately. Incoming glucose will first replensish liver glycogen which - I could be wrong, doesn't even require an insulin spike initially. And as I said earlier - rising insulin equals lowering cortisol... sooner the better PWO...

But a lot of this is specualtion for the sake of arguement and you bring up interesting ideas - I like roundtables like this. When I have some more time I will dig through the journals and PubMed and try and find something more. When I first joined here this is the type of stuff i would post constantly. Keep reading the abstracts, books by credible authors and discussing in Interent forums dude... then apply on yourself and document your results - and then share them!

Very good info and explaination Warrior. You hit the nail right on the head.

[Random]

Great info guys! This is very interesting and will hepl me in future cycles with insulin as a virgin to slin...

[Neuromancer]

I would never suggest taking the shake before the slin shot... it's that 10-15 minutes following the shot that is muy importante. You must have followed it with some form of food to feed your dropping blood sugar... how much slin are we talkin'? Any signs of hypo?

I really don't have any issues with signs of hypo with the dosages I use. Even when on the rare occasion my PWO meal schedule gets ruined for some reason or another, I never get any signs of hypo. I do get a slight shake and I can tell I have just dosed my slin about 10 mins after the shot, but I am already drinking my shake and that only lasts a min or so. But with this way I didn't even get that.

I use 8ius before breakfast (after a workout the previous night) and 12ius PWO. I am going to continue to try the slin dosing after I drink my shake just to make sure its not a fluke. I figure its only about 15 mins max since I finish my workout and it usually takes me that much time to finish my shake, sometimes a little less. So there is still the majority of the aminos and carbs in my gut at the time of my slin shot.

[zodiach]

I think if the former were true then a simple dextrose shake would be superior if not equal to using exogenous insulin. Bodybuilders have probably realized the power of administering insulin due to its rapid onset when taken intermuscularly right after training... boosting plasma levels immediately. Incoming glucose will first replensish liver glycogen which - I could be wrong, doesn't even require an insulin spike initially. And as I said earlier - rising insulin equals lowering cortisol... sooner the better PWO...

But a lot of this is specualtion for the sake of arguement and you bring up interesting ideas - I like roundtables like this. When I have some more time I will dig through the journals and PubMed and try and find something more. When I first joined here this is the type of stuff i would post constantly. Keep reading the abstracts, books by credible authors and discussing in Interent forums dude... then apply on yourself and document your results - and then share them!

Incoming glucose will replenish liver glycogen first, however insulin is needed to create glycogen, insulin acts on the glucose to create glycogen synthase which can then be stored as liver glycogen or dispersed to the body to be stored in muscle glycogen. As the glucose levels drop so do the insulin levels and in turn the glycogen. Which is why I wondered if spiking your natural insulin levels again 1-hr pwo nutritionally might be able to further enhance the glycogen output and protein synthesis to the muscles.

[Warrior]

So there is still the majority of the aminos and carbs in my gut at the time of my slin shot.

Theoretically, if the shake is cold - your gut would have to bring it to body temperature before metabolizing it... which could be why the delay is not leading to hypo when taking an insulin shot afterward. If you are drinking cold with success - I wouldn't advise switching to warm... you could have different results. I have usually used water at room temperature with my dextrose...

Personally - once I take 12IU's in the morning, or PWO... I got about 10-15 mikes or so before I can start to feel the drop in blood sugar. But I have never tried the shake prior to the slin shot before...

[Warrior]

Incoming glucose will replenish liver glycogen first, however insulin is needed to create glycogen, insulin acts on the glucose to create glycogen synthase which can then be stored as liver glycogen or dispersed to the body to be stored in muscle glycogen. As the glucose levels drop so do the insulin levels and in turn the glycogen. Which is why I wondered if spiking your natural insulin levels again 1-hr pwo nutritionally might be able to further enhance the glycogen output and protein synthesis to the muscles.

Fructose is better at replenishing liver glycogen than glucose - and studies suggest fructose does not need insulin to begin replenishing liver glycogen. So... if liver glycogen is the first thing to be replenished - does this mean there is a delayed response of endogenous insulin from PWO carbs?

Fructose intake and the prevalence of obesity have both increased over the past two to three decades. Compared with glucose, the hepatic metabolism of fructose favors lipogenesis, which may contribute to hyperlipidemia and obesity. Fructose does not increase insulin and leptin or suppress ghrelin, which suggests an endocrine mechanism by which it induces a positive energy balance. This review examines the available data on the effects of dietary fructose on energy homeostasis and lipid/carbohydrate metabolism. Recent publications, studies in human subjects, and areas in which additional research is needed are emphasized. PubMed

[zodiach]

Fructose is better at replenishing liver glycogen than glucose - and studies suggest fructose does not need insulin to begin replenishing liver glycogen. So... if liver glycogen is the first thing to be replenished - does this mean there is a delayed response of endogenous insulin from PWO carbs?

Fructose intake and the prevalence of obesity have both increased over the past two to three decades. Compared with glucose, the hepatic metabolism of fructose favors lipogenesis, which may contribute to hyperlipidemia and obesity. Fructose does not increase insulin and leptin or suppress ghrelin, which suggests an endocrine mechanism by which it induces a positive energy balance. This review examines the available data on the effects of dietary fructose on energy homeostasis and lipid/carbohydrate metabolism. Recent publications, studies in human subjects, and areas in which additional research is needed are emphasized. PubMed

Would this also mean that by taking in a small amount of fructose prior to your PWO carbs could in essence replenish liver glycogen without raising insulin, and therefore when the PWO carbs are taken in the insulin released could be solely used for muscle glycogen as opposed to creating liver glycogen as well? Kind of a tanks topped off overflow? As well by taking in your exogenous insulin the body will not be wasting any time creating liver glycogen?

[Warrior]

Would this also mean that by taking in a small amount of fructose prior to your PWO carbs could in essence replenish liver glycogen without raising insulin, and therefore when the PWO carbs are taken in the insulin released could be solely used for muscle glycogen as opposed to creating liver glycogen as well? Kind of a tanks topped off overflow? As well by taking in your exogenous insulin the body will not be wasting any time creating liver glycogen?

I suppose - but no matter what insulin will be used to shuttle glucose to the muscle. Apparently fructose does not need the spike to reach the liver. There is a strong train of thought that fructose should be part of a PWO shake... and even helpful in the morning, after fasting all night... but those are the only times it is useful. Otherwise, fructose has been shown not to stimulate thermogenesis and lead to binge eating... it has potential problems:

"In 1986, Levine et al. found that fructose, administered in the form of the disaccharide sucrose, promotes obesity more than glucose because fructose does not stimulate thermogenesis [58]."

"In 2004, Teff et al. showed that subjects served meals with either 30% glucose beverages, or 30% fructose beverages, had differing hormonal and metabolic responses. Glycemic excursions and insulin responses were reduced by 66% and 65%, respectively, in the fructose-consuming subjects. There was a concomitant reduction in circulating leptin both in the short and long-term as well as a 30% reduction in ghrelin (an orexigenic gastroenteric hormone) in the fructose group compared to the glucose group. A prolonged elevation of TG was also seen in the high fructose subjects [60]. Both fat and fructose consumption usually results in low leptin concentrations which, in turn, leads to overeating in populations consuming energy from these particular macronutrients." Nutrition and Metabolism

The liver can store 75-100 grams of glycogen per day. In this respect - you could keep burning fat and not raise insulin PWO if you keep within this amount.

Alternatively - you could replenish liver glycogen and then take the slin shot with straight dextrose strictly for the goal of muscular glycogen super compensation. Like you said...

However...

In healthy persons, glucose homeostasis maintains blood glucose levels between 70 and 130 mg/dl despite perturbations by meals, fasting, and exercise. Long-term follow-up of diabetic patients has suggested that "good control" of blood sugar levels minimizes the long-term complications of diabetes, such as retinopathy, nephropathy, and atherosclerosis. It now seems likely the products of insulin-independent metabolic pathways in epithelial and endothelial cells leading to polyol formation and protein glycosylation may be factors in the genesis of retinopathy, neuropathy, nephropathy, and premature atherosclerosis of diabetic patients. Dietary complex carbohydrates of various type, including those rich in dietary fiber, which are the cell walls of fruits, vegetables, and cereals, may slow the rate of absorption of glucose from those diets and contribute to a lowering of the postprandial glucose peak. Glycemic responses to various foods compared to glucose have been studied and show a large variation, which is dependent upon gastric emptying, overall effects on rate of hydrolysis and absorption of glucose from food mixtures. Dietary sucrose seems to cause a degree of insulin resistance. The active part of the disaccharide is fructose, which does not elicit an acute insulin response, but appears indirectly to increase insulin levels in both animals and man. Sucrose in animals appears to promote obesity more than glucose because of its lack of stimulation of thermogenesis. Xylitol has been used as a sweetener and as a sugar substitute in total parenteral nutrition. It is a paradox that the most physiological of sugars (glucose) can be a menace at high concentrations. The use of nonphysiological sugars or their derivatives in diabetics and patients with special needs, such as TPN, requires much more investigation to develop a sound rationale in nutrition management.Monosaccharides in health and disease.

And the plot thickens...

[zodiach]

Then there is this:

The precise signal that regulates fructose transport in renal proximal tubule cells (PTCs) under high glucose conditions is not yet known although fructose has been recommended as a substitute for glucose in the diets of diabetic people. Thus, we investigated that effect of high glucose on fructose uptake and its signaling pathways in primary cultured rabbit renal PTCs. Glucose inhibited the fructose uptake in a time- and dose-dependent manner. A maximal inhibitory effect of glucose on fructose uptake was observed at 25 mM glucose after 48 h, while 25 mM mannitol and l-glucose did not affect fructose uptake. Indeed, 25 mM glucose for 48 h decreased GLUT5 protein level. Thus, the treatment of 25 mM glucose for 48 h was used for this study. Glucose-induced (25 mM) inhibition of fructose uptake was blocked by pertussis toxin (PTX), SQ-22536 (an adenylate cyclase inhibitor), and myristoylated amide 14-22 (a protein kinase A inhibitor). Indeed, 25 mM glucose increased the intracellular cAMP content. Furthermore, 25 mM glucose-induced inhibition of fructose uptake was prevented by neomycin or U-73122 (phospholipase C inhibitors) and staurosporine or bisindolylmaleimide I (protein kinase C inhibitors). In fact, 25 mM glucose increased the total PKC activity and translocation of PKC from the cytosolic to membrane fraction. In addition, PD 98059 (a p44/42 mitogen-activated protein kinase (MAPK) inhibitor) but not SB 203580 (a p38 MAPK inhibitor) and mepacrine or AACOCF3 (phospholipase A2 inhibitors) blocked 25 mM glucose-induced inhibition of fructose uptake. Results of Western blotting using the p44/42 MAPK and GLUT5 antibodies were consistent with the results of uptake experiments. In conclusion, high glucose inhibits the fructose uptake through cAMP, PLC/PKC, p44/42 MAPK, and cytosolic phospholipase A2 (cPLA2) pathways in the PTCs. Copyright 2004 Wiley-Liss, Inc.High glucose inhibits fructose uptake in renal proximal tubule cells

But in opposition comes this one based on children:

Effects of carbohydrate, fat, and fructose intake on substrate and hormone concentrations, glucose production, gluconeogenesis, and insulin sensitivity were determined in healthy, nonobese prepubertal children (n = 12) and adolescents (n = 24) using a cross-over design. In one group (12 prepubertal children and 12 adolescents), subjects were studied after 7 d of isocaloric, isonitrogenous diets providing either 60% carbohydrate and 25% fat [high carbohydrate (H(CHO))/low fat (L(F))] or 30% carbohydrate and 55% fat [low carbohydrate (L(CHO))/high fat (H(F))], and in a second group (12 adolescents) H(CHO)/L(F) diets containing either 40% or 10% fructose was used. All subjects adapted to changes in carbohydrate and fat intakes primarily by appropriately adjusting their substrate oxidation rates to match the intakes, with only minor changes in parameters of glucose metabolism. Changing from a L(CHO)/H(F) to H(CHO)/L(F) diet resulted in increased insulin sensitivity (stable labeled iv glucose tolerance test) in adolescents [from 3.2 +/- 0.7 x 10(-4) to 5.0 +/- 1.4 x 10(-4) (min(-1))/( micro U.ml(-1)) (mean +/- SE)] but not in prepubertal children [9.4 +/- 2.5 x 10(-4) to 9.9 +/- 1.5 x 10(-4) (min(-1))/( micro U.ml(-1))], whereas beta-cell sensitivity was unaffected in both groups. Insulin sensitivity was higher in prepubertal children than in adolescents (P < 0.05). The dietary fructose content did not affect any measured parameter. We conclude that in the short term, dramatic changes in fat and carbohydrate intakes (regardless of fructose content) did not adversely affect glucose and lipid metabolism in healthy nonobese children. In the adolescents, the high carbohydrate diet resulted in increased insulin sensitivity, thus facilitating insulin-mediated glucose uptake.Effects of dietary macronutrient content on glucose metabolism in children

Man talk about differing results! And in that study you posted earlier it stated that fructose had a negative impact on glucose uptake.

[BG]

Great read!!!!