Getting gyno surgery!

[dirtball_619]

So after my second visit with the doc about my gyno, he has concluded i should just have the surgery done. He told me that by using letro or nolva is just a temporary fix and that he would rather just refer me to a surgeon to have both my glands removed.

He said he is POSITIVE insurance will cover it, but somehow i think theres a hitch to this. i go to the radioligist to have an ultrasound then off to the surgeon i go.

anyone here had the surgery? how long were you out for? he told me they would be going in through a hole in my arm pit to avoid unsightly scarring. Whoa. scary

[largerthannormal]

whao whao,,,usually the first incision is under the nipple , they cut half the nipple on the nipple line (half circle bro) and the whole gland is not removed only part of it. normally the surgery is aroun 5-7 k without insurance. recovery only has to do with the skin re-attaching itself to the chest cavity. you will be issued a really tight jacket to wear under your clothes. the less you take it off the faster recovery. i wouldnt reccomend lifting while you are recovering even if you feel fine. i would wait at least 1.5 months bro. the dr. will reccomend more. depending on the severity of the gyno he could also install drain tubes under your arms that lead to the breast. see now there is an empty space in your chest cavity and your body will naturally try to fill that area with water/blood! all depending on how bad it is. if your surgeons good there wont be any scar's anyway.

i didnt have the sugery but sooner or later i may!

[Schmidty]

Im waiting for the money he army owes me n im getting it done to.

[largerthannormal]

i heard one guy on here ,, told the dr it was work realted and he was in pain . and his work insurance payed it...sweet huh? i cant remmeber who said that though

[magic32]

So after my second visit with the doc about my gyno, he has concluded i should just have the surgery done. He told me that by using letro or nolva is just a temporary fix and that he would rather just refer me to a surgeon to have both my glands removed.

It seems physicians are much more cut first than they used to be. It's as if that part of the Hippocratic Oath is no longer adhered to. If I ever get this gyno piece completed it's going to expose a whole lot of misconceptions, alas good work takes time.

Although gyno is classified in different ways usually by etiology (cause), appearance (most notably size), and location (above, on, or within the gland) as cited below, only advanced cases inhabit the gland, a form which is atypical and occurs when the condition has persisted for a long time. The other two types are far more prevalent. Even though my focus in on medical surgical cures, here is an excerpt from my research that discusses invasive surgical treatments with regard to type.

In 1934, Webster classified gynecomastia into 3 types.

1. Glandular - Patients with a glandular component require surgical removal of the gland.
2. Fatty Glandular - With the fatty glandular form, surgery combined with liposuction allows good contouring.
3. Simple Fatty - In the cases that are primarily fatty in nature, liposuction alone provides good results.

How long did you apply the therapies you mentioned in the initial post? And at what doses?

[naturalsux]

It seems physicians are much more cut first than they used to be. It's as if that part of the Hippocratic Oath is no longer adhered to. If I ever get this gyno piece completed it's going to expose a whole lot of misconceptions, alas good work takes time.

Although gyno is classified in different ways usually by etiology (cause), appearance, and location (above, on, or within the gland) as cited below, only advanced cases inhabit the gland, a form which is atypical and occurs when the condition has persisted for a long time. The other two types are far more prevalent. Even though my focus in on medical surgical cures, here is an excerpt from my research that discusses invasive surgical treatments with regard to type.



How long did you apply the therapies you mentioned in the initial post? And at what doses?

bump im curious too.

[largerthannormal]

good post majic! i knew there was a few types but i was unsure onwhat they were. i look all over for that info . howd u find that?

[magic32]

good post majic! i knew there was a few types but i was unsure onwhat they were. i look all over for that info . howd u find that?

I'm presently delving into medical journals of many different types examining the factors that best eliminate gyno caused by the manipulation of the test/estro ratio.

Another classification described by Simon in 1973 groups the patients into categories according to the size of the gynecomastia.

• Group 1 - is minor but visible breast enlargement without skin redundancy.
• Group 2A - is moderate breast enlargement without skin redundancy.
• Group 2B - is moderate breast enlargement with minor skin redundancy.
• Group 3 - is gross breast enlargement with skin redundancy that simulates a pendulous female breast.

[Merc..]

I'm presently delving into medical journals of many different types examining the factors that best eliminate gyno caused by the manipulation of the test/estro ratio.

Another classification described by Simon in 1973 groups the patients into categories according to the size of the gynecomastia.

• Group 1 - is minor but visible breast enlargement without skin redundancy.
• Group 2A - is moderate breast enlargement without skin redundancy.
• Group 2B - is moderate breast enlargement with minor skin redundancy.
• Group 3 - is gross breast enlargement with skin redundancy that simulates a pendulous female breast.

Good post Magic...

Keep in mind gyno needs estrogen and progesterone as well as GH and IGF -1 to form ....


Merc.

[chitownhoker]

my surgery only cost 3700, i was out 2 months

[Lemonada8]

great post! i am considering this surgery also, but mines all natural

[MBaraso]

Or you can do it yourself! lol
Goodluck w/ your surgery bro..

[magic32]

Good post Magic...

Keep in mind gyno needs estrogen and progesterone as well as GH and IGF -1 to form ....


Merc.

Not exactly…your description makes gyno appear far more complex than it really is, and views many of the peripheral bodily levels as imperatives. In actuality there are several, simple abnormal conditions, including idiopathic (unknown) causes, that create an environment conducive to gyno. But you’re still right in the sense that many other levels are typically unbalanced as well.

Here's another excerpt from my piece that covers causality:

Many pharmacological agents can cause gynecomastia. These drugs can be categorized by their mechanisms of action. The first type are drugs that act exactly like estrogens, such as diethylstilbestrol, birth control pills, digitalis, and estrogen-containing cosmetics. The second are drugs that enhance endogenous estrogen formation such as gonadotropins and clomiphene. The third type are drugs that inhibit testosterone synthesis and action, such as ketoconazole, metronidazole, and cimetidine. The final type is drugs that act by unknown mechanisms, such as isoniazid, methyldopa, captopril, tricyclic antidepressants, diazepam, and even heroin.


FOR A LARGER VIEW: http://www.emedicine.com/plastic/ima...73437-1868.jpg



Regardless of the cause, certain endogenous conditions must exist for gynecomastia to form. Estradiol is the growth hormone of the breast, and an excess of estradiol leads to the proliferation of breast tissue. Under normal circumstances, most estradiol in men is derived from the peripheral conversion of testosterone and adrenal estrone. The basic mechanisms of gynecomastia are a decrease in androgen production, an absolute increase in estrogen production, and an increased availability of estrogen precursors for peripheral conversion to estradiol.


FOR A LARGER VIEW: http://www.emedicine.com/plastic/ima...pla0125-01.jpg

[dirtball_619]

Thanks very much for the responses guys.

When i first came to the boards and asked about these designer steroids everyone advised against it because of my age (18). Having the typical "nothing can hurt me" attitude that comes with being a teenage male i then pursued several of these designer steroid cycles without ancillaries or pct. I knew the proper way to cycle and which ancillaries and pct to take but i was low on cash and just knew i wanted to get bigger, Easier.

Well, My ignorance has caught up to me. 3 months After the fact. Not only do i have gyno, But ive also had acne flare ups on my chest and back, periodic bouts of erectile dysfunction, and sometimes moderate Lethargy. Although my blood work has come back normal i still have these symptoms.

I have now fully understood exactly why you guys here at AR are so persistant on advising against Hormone manipulation in anyone under 21. Im going to follow that trend now and try to help naive youngsters such as myself that dont know what kind of problems they may face.

I think they would take the advice From someone there own age more so than from other members here that come off to them as grumpy over protective know it all users 21 and over.

I may possibly type an article about my experience in detail to copy and paste to any more threads of these young men such as myself considering steroids/PH's/Prosteroids.
I wouldnt wish these side effects on my worst enemy.

[AaronJM1984]

What do you guys think the % is of guys that are affected by gyno, not naturally, but from PH, PS, or AAS? Just curious, I've known maybe 10 guys in person that juiced, never bothered them, of course I assume they used proper PCT. Also, is it possibe to have gyno without being able to see it? Just curious if some guys can develop it alittle, but not be able to visibly notice anything? Not asking for myself, due to the fact that I've read for months of the signs, soreness, itching, etc...

Do you guys think gyno is mainly due to lack of or poor PCT?

Sorry not trying to jack your thread.

[Merc..]

Not exactly…your description makes gyno appear far more complex than it really is, and views many of the peripheral bodily levels as imperatives. In actuality there are several, simple abnormal conditions, including idiopathic (unknown) causes, that create an environment conducive to gyno. But you’re still right in the sense that many other levels are typically unbalanced as well.

Here's another excerpt from my piece that covers causality:

Actually gyno cant form without estrogen , progesterone , and other mediators such as GH and IGF -1...

[Merc..]

[Merc..]

ESTROGEN, GH AND IGF-1, PROGESTERONE, & PROLACTIN

Estrogen and progesterone act in an integrative fashion to stimulate normal adult female breast development. Estrogen, acting through its ER a receptor, promotes duct growth, while progesterone, also acting through its receptor (PR), supports alveolar development (15). This is demonstrated by experiments in ER a knockout mice which display grossly impaired ductal development, whereas the PR knockout mice possess significant ductal development, but lack alveolar differentiation (28,6).

Although estrogens and progestogens are vital to mammary growth, they are ineffective in the absence of anterior pituitary hormones (13). Thus, neither estrogen alone nor estrogen plus progesterone can sustain breast development without other mediators, such as GH and IGF-1, as confirmed by studies involving the administration of estrogen and GH to hypophysectomized and oophorectomized female rats, which resulted in breast ductal development. The GH effects on ductal growth are mediated through stimulation of IGF-1. This is demonstrated by studies of estrogen and GH administration to IGF-1 knockout rats that showed significantly decreased mammary development when compared to age-matched IGF-1- intact controls. Combined estrogen and IGF-1 treatment in these IGF-1 knockout rats restored mammary growth. (23, 40). In addition, Walden et al. demonstrated that GH-stimulated production of IGF-1 mRNA in the mammary gland itself, suggesting that IGF-1 production in the stromal compartment of the mammary gland acts locally to promote breast development (49). Furthermore, other data indicates that estrogen promotes GH secretion and increased GH levels, stimulating the production of IGF-1, which synergizes with estrogen to induce ductal development.

Like estrogen, progesterone has minimal effects in breast development without concomitant anterior pituitary hormones; again indicating that progesterone interacts closely with pituitary hormones. For example, prolonged treatment of dogs with progestogens such as depot medroxyprogesterone acetate or with proligestone caused increased GH and IGF-1 levels, suggesting that progesterone may also have an effect on GH secretion (33). In addition, clinical studies have correlated maximal cell proliferation to specific phases in the female menstrual cycle. For example, maximal proliferation occurs not during the follicular phase when estrogens reach peak levels and progesterone is low (less than 1 ng/mL [3.1nmol}), but rather, it occurs during the luteal phase when progesterone reaches levels of 10-20 ng/mL (31- 62nmol) and estrogen levels are two to three times lower than in the follicular phase (42). Furthermore, immunohistochemical studies of ER and PR showed that the highest percentage of proliferating cells, found almost exclusively in the type 1 lobules, contained the highest percentage of ER and PR positive cells (42). Similarly, there is immunocytological presence of ER, PR, and androgen receptors (AR) in gynecomastia and male breast carcinoma. ER, PR and AR expression was observed in 100% (30/30) of gynecomastia cases (41). Given these data and the fact that PR knockout mice lack alveolar development in breast tissue, it appears as if progesterone, analogous to estrogen, may increase GH secretion and act through its receptor on mammary tissue to enhance breast development, specifically alveolar differentiation (28, 18).

Prolactin is another anterior pituitary hormone integral to breast development. Prolactin is not only secreted by the pituitary gland but may be produced in normal mammary tissue epithelial cells and breast tumors. (44, 25). Prolactin stimulates epithelial cell proliferation only in the presence of estrogen and enhances lobulo-alveolar differentiation only with concomitant progesterone.


http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/male14.htm


Merc.

[jbonez19]

i sympathise with you dirtball. i had surgery a long time ago. i live in australia and found a doctor who would do it under public health care for free. as i was short of money at the time i said "great", what a big mistake that was. he made two large incisions half an inch under my nipples, he did one side and took a part of the gland, his trainee did the other side and took the whole gland. they put the drains an inch below the incisions in my chest, the one that the trainee did didn't drain properly, an abcess developed and ate a hole through my skin between the nipple and my armpit about the size of one of your silver dollars. i was not given any compression bandages to wear and now my nipples are irregular and i have had the whole area tattooed to hide the whole sorry mess. in short, only have this surgery done if you absolutely have to, get a second opinion. if you have to get it done make sure that the cost is not an issue, if you have to save or borrow money to be done by a better surgeon do it. make sure that your surgeon has done that op before WITH GOOD RESULTS. you only have one body bro, don't compromise on anything. regrets are ugly and so are the scars that go along with them. i sincerely wish you good luck and hope that you can reverse it without surgery. don't think "i'll have them out now so i don't have to worry later". if you can reduce them with meds, do that, and be more scientific when cycling in the future.

[loftros]

I had gyno left over from puberty i think it was 6 cmish. I had the surgery in november last year and i was able to lift again in january, i can still see a lil bit of the scar. Overall its really just minor surgery

[jbonez19]

any gyno from puberty will go down and away by itself, naturally. if any teens are reading this and have lumps. don't worry they will go. it just means that if you ever start on steroids you may be more susceptible and will have to have meds on hand to deal with it if it pops up again. there are great posts in the educational threads section

[AleX-69]

Well

i also had some "fat deposits" around my chest area which were resistant to dieting. even with 8% BF my chest still looked kinda puffy. So i went to a plastic surgeon. She told me i most likely had a case of lipodistrophy with no or insignificant breast tissue development.
so i got lipo done in november with local anesthesia - very unpleasant expierence it was

Just after the OP everthing looked flat and fine but about 4 weeks later after my chest had accustomed to the OP i noticed that my nippels seemed to stand out even more.
I went to the surgeon once more and it turned out that i had some lump development under my nippels which neither i nor her had noticed before. Only thorugh liposuction it became more visible. Maybe if i had done mamography b4 the initial OP it would haven been obvious right away.

So i got another OP sceduled by the end of last week and got both glands removed. They were rather big as i could see on photos this week. This procedure was done in total balanced anesthesia. The surgeon made an incisicon under the lower half of my nippels and removed all the tissue she found. Afterwards she did some liposuction conturing to even out the "holes".
It was wet lipo where a mixture of lidocaine, noradrenaline and some filler substance is injected into the tissue and then the fatty tissue is sucked out.
Using this technique offers the advantage of blood vessel constriction and therfore lesser bleeding tendency. Moreover two small drains have been placed at the side of my nipples. Those have been removed on monday.

I already got a glimpse on my chest and the left side looked like a small crater has formed under the nipple. didnt see much of the right side though. Next monday sitches will be removed and i am curios to see the result. I am positive that everything went ok and the chest looks finally as i wanted it to be. The small crater will even out within the next few weeks i feel.

alex

[largerthannormal]

im glad to hear alex. good post. i still wish mine looked the way i wanted it too. im hoping i just get so much muscle i wont knotice it .hahah..its working so far. hopefully i dont have to make a trip to the surgeon.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

Im getting surgery done in June. And Im pretty nervous/scared. I just feel my chest is never gona be "normal". I just keep thinking pessimistic lol. caved in chest, etc...

From what I understand from my doc is that an incision is made under the nipple, and breast tissue is removed, but not all of it, and some lipo around the chest area. Surgery usually takes an hour, and yr given a tight chest jacket.
And you cant do anything (exercise, treadmill, etc.) for 1 month.

and hopefully thats the end of it. But as with all surgery, there are risks.

I see where some people say they have the whole gland removed???? I was under the impression that you shouldnt/couldnt do that. Remove the whole breast gland? I was told yr highly likely to end up with a messed up chest in that case....?????

[AleX-69]

my surgeon did that several times with no problems.

look at this web site. http://www.plasticsurgery4u.com/proc..._building.html

there are several examples how a surgery is perfromed. with b4 and after pictures and most of the time pictures of the actual OP itself. Worth watching and reading up upon if you plan to hav surgery done.

[Sculpture]

strange, i started to get gyno during puberty ovecourse it went away, but here i am all these years later using 1900mg per week of gear with no estrogen blockers and not even an itch on either nipple.

[AleX-69]

im glad to hear alex. good post. i still wish mine looked the way i wanted it too. im hoping i just get so much muscle i wont knotice it .hahah..its working so far. hopefully i dont have to make a trip to the surgeon.

muscle lies below gland tissue. The better your chest development (esp. lower chest) the more gland tissue will stand out. Building muscle in that area will worsen the overall look in the long run genreally speaking.
If you are not satisfied with how your chest looks take a trip to a qualified plastic suregon. PERIOD.

Dont think you can reduce your puffy nippels with a shitload of AIs, local Pgf-2 injections, dieting or whatever BS people wanna tell you. In my expierence the only relieable option is surgery. It isn't so bad after all. And you won't waste years trying to somehow improve the look of your chest.

[magic32]

Actually gyno cant form without estrogen , progesterone , and other mediators such as GH and IGF -1...

I'm not saying you're wrong.
If everything is off then obviously you can get gyno, however the sex hormone imbalance alone is enough to cause it:

MAYO CLINIC
Causes
Gynecomastia is triggered by a decrease in the amount of testosterone compared to estrogen. This decrease can be caused by conditions that block the effects of or reduces testosterone or by a condition that increases estrogen levels. Several things can upset the hormone balance, including natural hormone changes, medications and certain health conditions. In about 25 percent of cases, the cause of gynecomastia is never found.

The testosterone-estrogen balance
The hormones testosterone and estrogen control the development and maintenance of sex characteristics in both men and women. Testosterone controls male traits such as muscle mass and body hair; estrogen controls female traits including the growth of breasts.

Most people think of estrogen as an exclusively female hormone, but men also produce it — though normally in small quantities. It helps regulate bone density, sperm production and mood. It may also have an effect on cardiovascular health. But male estrogen levels that are too high, or are out of balance with testosterone levels, can cause gynecomastia.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/gyn...850/DSECTION=3

Pathophysiology
Gynecomastia results from an altered estrogen-androgen balance, in favor of estrogen, or increased breast sensitivity to a normal circulating estrogen level. The imbalance is between the stimulatory effect of estrogen and the inhibitory effect of androgen. Estrogens induce ductal epithelial hyperplasia, ductal elongation and branching, proliferation of the periductal fibroblasts, and an increase in vascularity. The histologic picture is similar in male and female breast tissue after exposure to estrogen.

Estrogen production in males is mainly from the peripheral conversion of androgens (testosterone and androstenedione) through the action of the enzyme aromatase, mainly in muscle, skin, and adipose tissue in the forms of estrone and estradiol.

The normal production ratio of testosterone to estrogen is approximately 100:1. The normal ratio of testosterone to estrogen in the circulation is approximately 300:1.

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic934.htm

[largerthannormal]

majic i think your our new tit dr!

[loftros]

any gyno from puberty will go down and away by itself, naturally. if any teens are reading this and have lumps. don't worry they will go. it just means that if you ever start on steroids you may be more susceptible and will have to have meds on hand to deal with it if it pops up again. there are great posts in the educational threads section

Nah if you've totally stopped growing(18 for me) gyno sometimes is still developed and surgery is the only option

[wilson9d]

Im waiting for the money he army owes me n im getting it done to.

tell your doc it is painfull. and it has been painfull for a while but you just heard that it can be treated. thats what i am saying. I am in stl also. So if it works ill give you my docs name.

[magic32]

Oh, here's another one that I'll be adding to the piece:

Long-Term Consequences of Castration in Men: Lessons from the Skoptzy and the Eunuchs of the Chinese and Ottoman Courts
Jean D. Wilson and Claus Roehrborn
The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 84, No. 12 4324-4331

Gynecomastia. Hikmet and Regnault reported that the breasts in the Ottoman court eunuchs became large and pendulous (30) Although not commented on by either author, gynecomastia is also evident in 5 of 9 photographs of Skoptzy men published by Koch (13) and in 7 of 14 photographs of Chinese eunuchs published by Wagenseil (19) (Fig. 5). Furthermore, Wu and Gu reported that 9 of the 26 subjects in their study had breast enlargement (25, 26). These observations of gynecomastia in castrated men are in keeping with the subsequent report by Heller, Nelson, and Roth that approximately half of men with functional prepubertal hypogonadism develop gynecomastia (45). In hypogonadal men, gynecomastia develops when estrogen formed by extraglandular aromatization of adrenal androgens is sufficient to cause breast enlargement in the face of profoundly low testosterone values (46). The reason that gynecomastia develops in some but not all men with primary hypogonadism is not known.


LARGER VIEW: http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con.../84/12/4324/F5

[RapaciousShark]

I know lots of guys who cycle and sadly 75% of them have gyno in one form or another. A lot of us have little bit of it and no one knows the difference until u educate them. My gf didnt notice my gyno til I told her about it. Now that she knows what gyno is she points out dudes in public who look like they have some. It cracks me up.

Got some sad stories in here man...

[quartertonroche]

any gyno from puberty will go down and away by itself, naturally. if any teens are reading this and have lumps. don't worry they will go. it just means that if you ever start on steroids you may be more susceptible and will have to have meds on hand to deal with it if it pops up again. there are great posts in the educational threads section

well this isnt true

[magic32]

any gyno from puberty will go down and away by itself, naturally. if any teens are reading this and have lumps. don't worry they will go. it just means that if you ever start on steroids you may be more susceptible and will have to have meds on hand to deal with it if it pops up again. there are great posts in the educational threads section

well this isnt true

You're right Quarter. In most cases, adolescent gyno will resolve w/o treatment within a few months to two or three years. Fortunately, this constitutes approx. 90% of the cases, sadly the other 10% will require mediation of some kind.

----------------------------------------------

Hey Merc,

I love the detail in the flow chart that you posted in #17 above, and will add it to the gyno piece, since closer scrutiny actually bolsters my point. You'll notice that only testosterone (via the blue arrow indicating decline/inhibition) and estrogen (increased via testosterone aromatization) are linked by the exterior black arrow or critical path (that of NECESSITY), and can without anything else directly (via the red arrow) stimulate "Breast Tissue”, a.k.a. gyno. All the other hormones on the periphery are merely red arrow contributors, or as the chart puts it "Stimulatory" agents capable of adding to and exacerbating this condition.

Actually the opposite is true, a variety of estrogens possess the ability to augment GH secretion and the plasma IGF-I concentration which is how the increased levels occur.

Wiedemann E, Schwartz F, Frantz AG. 1976 Acute and chronic estrogen effects upon serum somatomedin activity, growth homrone and prolactin in man.
Keenan BS, Eberle AL Suarrow JT. Greeer NG. Panko
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 42:942.

Rosenfield RL, Fang VS. 1986 Administration of low-dose estrogen rapidly and directly stimulates growth hormone production.
Brasel JA, Wright JC, Wilkins
Am J Dis Child. 140:124.

Meyer WJ, Furlanetto RW, Walker PA. 1982 The effect of sex steroids on radioimmunoassayable plasma somatomedin-C concentrations.
Rosenfield RL, Fang VS. 1986 Administration
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 55:1184.

----------------------

Most cases of gynecomastia result from an imbalance between estrogenic (stimulatory) and androgenic (inhibitory) effects on the breast.
Bembo, S., Carson, H.
"Gynecomastia: Its features, and when and how to treat it"
Cleveland Clinic Journal of Medicine
Vol 71, Num 6, June 2004

----------------------

Gynecomastia results from an altered estrogen-androgen balance, in favor of estrogen, or increased breast sensitivity to a normal circulating estrogen level.
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic934.htm
Mark R Allee, MD, Department of Medicine,
University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center

----------------------

GYNECOMASTIA, WHICH OCCURS transiently in 30–60% of pubertal boys, is thought in most cases to result from an imbalance between the stimulatory effects of estrogens and the inhibitory effects of androgens.
Paul V. Plourde, et al
The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism
Vol. 89, No. 9 4428-4433

----------------------

Since estrogens stimulate breast tissue whereas androgens antagonize these effects, gynecomastia has long been considered the result of an imbalance between these hormones.
Glenn D. Braunstein
New England Journal of Medicine
Volume 328:490-495, February 18, 1993, Number 7

[magic32]

above post for Merc.

Ironically, your antagonism is becoming so supportive that if you keep it up, I'll have to list you as a works contributor!