Gay marriage may be a gift to California's economy

[FallenWyvern]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point of view, but I don't see any way around some kind of official government acknowledgment of marriage/domestic partnerships. Tax benefits, health insurance, life insurance, living wills, inheritance.. many different things typically only accorded to legal spouses would become really complicated.

For instance, say a rich dude died and two different women claimed to be his widow. You've got to have something documented.

I don't know why you would think that, there shouldn't be any special tax benefits(I can't think of any good ones anyways that exists now), health insurance is usually six months domestic partnership, life insurance has beneficiary designations, living wills can be drawn up to say anything, inheritance w/o a trust goes through probate.

Now if someone is a dumb ass that dies without a will or a trust, the government determines next of kin through probate anyways. Proof of residence would fix that real quick in your two woman scenario, provided there are no kids.

Marriage needs to be removed from all legal documents and substituted with something else, but I could see the domestic partnership/civil union designation not being necessary too.

[CeeLo]

I thought he would have been able to pick up on that on his own , guess not

I picked up on what you guys were saying, but you asked when I made a choice?

[DSM4Life]

I picked up on what you guys were saying, but you asked when I made a choice?

I can see by your statement you didn't and still don't understand my point.

[CeeLo]

I can see by your statement you didn't and still don't understand my point.

OK....DSM, you want me to see that I didn't have to make a choice. It was just the way I was made! Correct. I will go with that.

[Coop77]

I picked up on what you guys were saying, but you asked when I made a choice?

You didn't choose what turns you on, so why would you think other people do? Some guys like big boobs, small boobs, blonds, brunettes.. some guys like guys. Sexuality is diverse.

[Coop77]

I don't know why you would think that, there shouldn't be any special tax benefits(I can't think of any good ones anyways that exists now), health insurance is usually six months domestic partnership, life insurance has beneficiary designations, living wills can be drawn up to say anything, inheritance w/o a trust goes through probate.

Now if someone is a dumb ass that dies without a will or a trust, the government determines next of kin through probate anyways. Proof of residence would fix that real quick in your two woman scenario, provided there are no kids.

Marriage needs to be removed from all legal documents and substituted with something else, but I could see the domestic partnership/civil union designation not being necessary too.

It's not that it's impossible to arrange all those things without marriage, it's just more complicated. For unmarried couples to buy a house, have joint financial accounts, etc they have to draw up all kinds of contracts and shit for things that would be inherent if they were married.

Also, if you abolish marriage as we know it, you're abolishing divorce, which would make splitting joint assets complicated. One partner would always claim "we were never married, therefore it's all mine." You can think of examples of ways people would get screwed all day.

[FallenWyvern]

It's not that it's impossible to arrange all those things without marriage, it's just more complicated. For unmarried couples to buy a house, have joint financial accounts, etc they have to draw up all kinds of contracts and shit for things that would be inherent if they were married.

Also, if you abolish marriage as we know it, you're abolishing divorce, which would make splitting joint assets complicated. One partner would always claim "we were never married, therefore it's all mine." You can think of examples of ways people would get screwed all day.

I am only talking about the word marriage as legal destination, it needs to be called something else. Marriage is a religious thing.

This isn't complicated.

[Tock]

So, you need the government to tell you who your friends are or do you just want the government to make a friendship official? I don't understand where you think the government needs to intervene in this part of your life or why you even think this is part of the governments responsibility.

If the gov't is going to give benefits based on who's married to who, then for legal purposes, the gov't is gonna have to have a definition of legal marriage, and somebody is gonna have to keep track of who's married to who. Otherwise, people could claim to be married to people they aren't, or could claim they aren't married to people they are. Not knowing who's legally paired with who would be a problem when dividing up estates when one of 'em dies.

In state governments, it's usually the Secretary of State's office that keeps track of what corporation is owned by another corporation. It's a database like that that somebody somewhere has to maintain. If the gov't doesn't do it, who will? Microsoft?

[Tock]

I am only talking about the word marriage as legal destination, it needs to be called something else. Marriage is a religious thing.

This isn't complicated.

I agree.

However, lots of gay people want to be married; they want that word. Lots of religious people want to keep that word as a religious term. Some people say the term "Civil Union" is sufficient for all legal marriages. Other people disagree.

Whatever the choice finally is, you can be sure that somebody isn't gonna like what it's named. IMHO, it makes no difference to me, so long as all the legal rights and obligations are identical for everybody.

[DSM4Life]

I agree.

However, lots of gay people want to be married; they want that word. Lots of religious people want to keep that word as a religious term. Some people say the term "Civil Union" is sufficient for all legal marriages. Other people disagree.

Whatever the choice finally is, you can be sure that somebody isn't gonna like what it's named. IMHO, it makes no difference to me, so long as all the legal rights and obligations are identical for everybody.

I agree.

[Kale]

I didn't want to go here, but here we go.... A little debate never really hurt anyone, right? Like I said, I don't have anything against gays, I even have a friend that is one and I think he is the coolest person, I just don't understand it.


Yes, I do think that sexuality is a choice. Not so much even a choice, but a fact of life. If you are born with Testosterone, Testicles, and a Penis, you should be looking for someone with Estrogen, Vagina, and a Clitoris.

I believe that I have always been attracted to the female gender as a man. As far back as can remember, a girl was a facination for me. I believe my recolection takes me back to the 3rd grade. My son whos is in the 1st grade and even in pre-school took a liking to girls.

I believe that it is just the way men and women are made, Like he (God) gave men test and women estrogen.

Then there is the point where Gay and Lesbian couples want to raise a family with kids and all. They can't naturally have one together, so they have to manipulate the system and either adopt or Test tube them. Then how will they raise those kids? Will they allow them to have their own outlook on gainess or will their minds be altered?

You seriously believe this statement. ? If so I am flabbergasted by your ignorance dude !!! Why would somebody deliberately choose to be Gay, or in my case Bi-sexual ?

[Carlos_E]

You seriously believe this statement. ? If so I am flabbergasted by your ignorance dude !!! Why would somebody deliberately choose to be Gay, or in my case Bi-sexual ?

I wouldn't consider you bi. I'm not sure what to consider you since you like girly boys. That makes you leaning more towards the straight side because they have female parts.

[DSM4Life]

I wouldn't consider you bi. I'm not sure what to consider you since you like girly boys. That makes you leaning more towards the straight side because they have female parts.

Bi-sexual = confused gay person.

[CeeLo]

You seriously believe this statement. ? If so I am flabbergasted by your ignorance dude !!! Why would somebody deliberately choose to be Gay, or in my case Bi-sexual ?

I have NO idea! People are different and choose to make choices that the person right next to him wouldn't.

Why do some people like to be pissed on? Why do some people rob banks? Why do people jump off brifges to their death? Why do people commit suicide or become suicide bombers? It's all a choice to me when it comes down to it.

I may be wrong and maybe their was a chemical unbalance when they were put together or something, crap, I don't know. It has never been proven one way or the other, has it? Shoot, my wife's female co-worker was straight for 30+ years and had 2 kids and then all of sudden decided to jump the fence and live with a chick! How do you explain that?

As far as bi-sexuals are concerned, they are just having their cake and eating it to! How can you say that they were wired up to like BOTH! I think their imagination got the best of them and they said Let me try to have relations with the same sex and see how it feels.

[DSM4Life]

I have NO idea! People are different and choose to make choices that the person right next to him wouldn't.

Why do some people like to be pissed on? Why do some people rob banks? Why do people jump off brifges to their death? Why do people commit suicide or become suicide bombers? It's all a choice to me when it comes down to it.

I may be wrong and maybe their was a chemical unbalance when they were put together or something, crap, I don't know. It has never been proven one way or the other, has it? Shoot, my wife's female co-worker was straight for 30+ years and had 2 kids and then all of sudden decided to jump the fence and live with a chick! How do you explain that?

As far as bi-sexuals are concerned, they are just having their cake and eating it to! How can you say that they were wired up to like BOTH! I think their imagination got the best of them and they said Let me try to have relations with the same sex and see how it feels.

Easy , society.

Seems like you are a bit out there with your thinking and are a little hard headed so i won't waste my time with it.

[FallenWyvern]

I agree.

However, lots of gay people want to be married; they want that word. Lots of religious people want to keep that word as a religious term. Some people say the term "Civil Union" is sufficient for all legal marriages. Other people disagree.

Whatever the choice finally is, you can be sure that somebody isn't gonna like what it's named. IMHO, it makes no difference to me, so long as all the legal rights and obligations are identical for everybody.

I agree.


The word thing is problematic as it is religious.

[Kale]

I have NO idea! People are different and choose to make choices that the person right next to him wouldn't.

Why do some people like to be pissed on? Why do some people rob banks? Why do people jump off brifges to their death? Why do people commit suicide or become suicide bombers? It's all a choice to me when it comes down to it.

I may be wrong and maybe their was a chemical unbalance when they were put together or something, crap, I don't know. It has never been proven one way or the other, has it? Shoot, my wife's female co-worker was straight for 30+ years and had 2 kids and then all of sudden decided to jump the fence and live with a chick! How do you explain that?

As far as bi-sexuals are concerned, they are just having their cake and eating it to! How can you say that they were wired up to like BOTH! I think their imagination got the best of them and they said Let me try to have relations with the same sex and see how it feels.

Complete garbage !!!! But you are obviously one eyed so I wont bother any more

[SMCengineer]

IMHO, it makes no difference to me, so long as all the legal rights and obligations are identical for everybody.

This is the point of removing the word "marriage" from government. Marriage is a religious institution (not limited to Christianity) and should be treated as such.

[CeeLo]

This is the point of removing the word "marriage" from government. Marriage is a religious institution (not limited to Christianity) and should be treated as such.

Why does the word itself have to be removed? The meaning of marriage is described as "any close or intimate association or union". There are also other meanings, but as long as this definiton is upheld, it can include anything or anyone. You can marry to monkeys if you want. Shoot ask a waitress in a restaurant, they marry ketchup bottles!

The only thing is wheter the government decides to accept it as LEGAL and write it into the Law books. Seems as though California has done so already, so they are well on their way.

I do think that the people should have a vote and if the majority says its, ok, then let it be. You will always have those that don't agree. That's what makes up a "public of people" with different ideas and actions.

[FallenWyvern]

Easy , society.

Seems like you are a bit out there with your thinking and are a little hard headed so i won't waste my time with it.

Complete garbage !!!! But you are obviously one eyed so I wont bother any more

Ditto.

[Peducho0113]

Times are changing; therefore, society has to adapt to the new changes. As long as we all respect each other there is nothing wrong IMOP

[Carlos_E]

I do think that the people should have a vote and if the majority says its, ok, then let it be. You will always have those that don't agree. That's what makes up a "public of people" with different ideas and actions.

The majority did not want integration. So no, the majority should not have a say in limiting the rights of other people.

[DeputyLoneWolf]

I have NO idea! People are different and choose to make choices that the person right next to him wouldn't.

Why do some people like to be pissed on? Why do some people rob banks? Why do people jump off brifges to their death? Why do people commit suicide or become suicide bombers? It's all a choice to me when it comes down to it.

I may be wrong and maybe their was a chemical unbalance when they were put together or something, crap, I don't know. It has never been proven one way or the other, has it? Shoot, my wife's female co-worker was straight for 30+ years and had 2 kids and then all of sudden decided to jump the fence and live with a chick! How do you explain that?

As far as bi-sexuals are concerned, they are just having their cake and eating it to! How can you say that they were wired up to like BOTH! I think their imagination got the best of them and they said Let me try to have relations with the same sex and see how it feels.

Very good post: Whether people want to admit it or not that is not how they are made and they have made a concious desision at one point.

It is very simple gay is not "natural" in any way shape or form. It is very simpe as stated above. I hope that everyone is more mature than to go crying to admin becasue I simply and and nicely voice my opinion. I don't get suspended for just voicing my opinion on this matter.

Also many people turn "gay" as a result of being molested at a very early age.

[DeputyLoneWolf]

The majority did not want integration. So no, the majority should not have a say in limiting the rights of other people.

Carlos, carlos, carlos, you don't get it do you? You were born black. That means you did not have a choice in the matter. Anyonw has a choice to be gay. Any reasonable person can see it is foolish to try to compare the two issues.

[CeeLo]

The majority did not want integration. So no, the majority should not have a say in limiting the rights of other people.

Ok, you being an Obama follower. The masses cried out for Obama and he had the Majority votes in all catergories, correct? So then since the majority said let's vote Obama, then with your rationale, we should put Hillary on the ticket for Demorcratic Presidental Nomiee and Not Obama!

Majority should always have the the right to rule! This is how it works in politics the majority of the house gets the bill. Why should it be different because you're gay?

I wonder though if this would be like unequal rights, for example, minorities and women are allowed special privilidges because they are minorities or women. So should we allow this to happen under Gay rights? There is NO such thing, is there?

[Coop77]

Very good post: Whether people want to admit it or not that is not how they are made and they have made a concious desision at one point.

Also many people turn "gay" as a result of being molested at a very early age.

Don't these two statements contradict each other? In one breath you're saying they "made a conscious decision" to be attracted to the same sex, then you say they were "turned gay" by some event in their life outside of their control.
Please explain.

[39+1]

It's pretty easy. God created and loves all people except you because you have a tattoo around your naval.

Sounds pretty silly right? It's just as silly to say god hates gays because of something that makes them different.

Go get em carlos,

[CeeLo]

Don't these two statements contradict each other? In one breath you're saying they "made a conscious decision" to be attracted to the same sex, then you say they were "turned gay" by some event in their life outside of their control.
Please explain.

I will try to explain what Deputy was trying to say. Some people "turn gay" after being molested or abused by someone that they trusted in thier life that may have happen to be of the opposite sex.

For example a young girl gets molested by her step father and then after this she sees men as abominable and unapproachable and so they turn to another female for comfort. I really don't have an explanation as to what would happen if a young boy was molested by an older man.


Deputy, feel free to expand or point out your side if I am incorrect.

[CeeLo]

Go get em carlos,

Really intelligible and we are glad that you could stop by and drop off your $0.02 (cents). That comment Carlos made was soooo long ago and at the beginning of the thread. I doubt if you even read thru the rest of the thread.

[DSM4Life]

DeputyLoneWolf cpreasha :

It would be one thing if you both said "I personally feel that its a personal choice and not an individuals choice."

I would totally respect your decision and there would be none of this going back and forth arguing. What we have here are two people giving us their opinions and stating them as facts and it make you two sound quite ummm dumb.

We (gay members) can comment on this topic because we live it everyday! You don't. So if you have a question ask it but don't try and explain something that you have no clue about.

[Carlos_E]

DeputyLoneWolf cpreasha :

It would be one thing if you both said "I personally feel that its a personal choice and not an individuals choice."

I would totally respect your decision and there would be none of this going back and forth arguing. What we have here are two people giving us their opinions and stating them as facts and it make you two sound quite ummm dumb.

We (gay members) can comment on this topic because we live it everyday! You don't. So if you have a question ask it but don't try and explain something that you have no clue about.

That's what kills me. Straight people TELLING me why I am gay as if they're the athourity on the subject. I am gay because God made me this way. Just as I was made with my skin color. Both things I cannot change. That's what they don't get.

Am I supposed to go out and date women? Pretend to like them? Pretend and have sex with them? That's ridiculous! Dumb people draining.

[Tock]

It is very simple gay is not "natural" in any way shape or form.

Check out this news article: "Same sex couples common in the wild"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/...3ggM8b0fpxieAA
You will see that homosexuality is indeed quite natural and normal in many many species of animals.

Also many people turn "gay" as a result of being molested at a very early age.

Ok, so when women are molested by men at an early age, they hate men and become lesbians. But when boys are molested at an early age, they hate men and become -- lesbians?

[Carlos_E]

I will try to explain what Deputy was trying to say. Some people "turn gay" after being molested or abused by someone that they trusted in thier life that may have happen to be of the opposite sex.

For example a young girl gets molested by her step father and then after this she sees men as abominable and unapproachable and so they turn to another female for comfort. I really don't have an explanation as to what would happen if a young boy was molested by an older man.


Deputy, feel free to expand or point out your side if I am incorrect.

Another silly disproved argument. Seriously go to the library and read a book instead of repeating "stuff you heard."

I was never molested. I had a GREAT relationship with my father and mother. So gay people are not mentally unstable or gay because they were molested.

Why does homosexuality bother you? Do you feel threathened? Are you afriad that you may "turn" gay as you put it.

One thing that have personally proven is the biggest homophobes always turn out to be the biggest homosexuals. I knew a guy freshmen year of college who was the biggest homophobe and I screwed him senior year and he wouldn't stop calling me cause he wanted some more dick.

Are you having thoughts late at night? Is this why the idea threatens you? Just so you know having a tattoo around your naval is considered gay. Do you have a tramp stamp on your lower back to?

[Carlos_E]

Ok, so when women are molested by men at an early age, they hate men and become lesbians. But when boys are molested at an early age, they hate men and become -- lesbians?

[Tock]

I will try to explain what Deputy was trying to say. Some people "turn gay" after being molested or abused by someone that they trusted in thier life that may have happen to be of the opposite sex.

Some people take up tennis after being molested, but is there a cause-and-effect here?
Can you assert there is a cause-and-effect between molesting and sexual orientation? No, I didn't think so. There is no research that draws that conclusion. Only speculation by armchair speculators . . .

[DSM4Life]

Just so you know having a tattoo around your naval is considered gay. Do you have a tramp stamp on your lower back to?

Tock

[thegodfather]

Carlos, carlos, carlos, you don't get it do you? You were born black. That means you did not have a choice in the matter. Anyonw has a choice to be gay. Any reasonable person can see it is foolish to try to compare the two issues.

No, any person with an advanced education can see that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and have gotten yourself in way over your head. In this thread, http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=347354 I provided EVIDENCE, peer reviewed RESEARCH which disproves what you are saying.

DeputyLoneWolf... Are you a Doctor (MD or DO)? Do you hold a MS or PhD in Biology, Genomics, or Physiology? If not, why are you asserting this opinion of yours as FACT? You are doing so additionally, without any peer reviewed scientific information with which to back up your assertations. Can you point me to a study in any of the major journals, JAMA, NEJM, etc., which can substantiate the claims you are making? The claim that sexual orientation is a choice and that no biological factors are involved.

I've never seen a more clear example of someone making claims that they cannot substantiate. An opinion which you have no doubt formed from associating with other like minded (i.e. close minded) religious right wing conservatives. If I am wrong please correct me. Im actually hoping you can prove me wrong, state your credentials, and the evidence behind your statements that sexual orientation is a choice.

[RA]

I just want to know who would lead when dancing at the reception?

[CeeLo]

OK Carlos, DSM, and anyone else that has debated this subject with me as to wether you "decided" to become gay or you were "born" that way, I can not disproved your logic and if I am honest with myself, I would have to say that I "DID NOT" have to make a decision one way or another. I just was attracted to females for as long as I can remember.

I have NO way of reading your minds or taping into the intermost nervous system of any one idividual. So therefore, I must take you for your word and since the majority of you (gay) men seem to conclude that it is NOT a choice, I will concede!

I am interested in the idea and the discovery of "what turns men gay". You see, I am NOT gay, but have been told that I might be in the closet. DON'T get happy, I assure you that I am NOT as I consider it repulsive to even think of taking part in such activity (man on man), NOT to offend any of you. I guess it is because of the way that I carry myself and because of how much attention I pay to myself when I am grooming and getting dressed. Another reason is because I have been told that I have a low sex drive and I knew this, but just thought it was the way I was, SO I decided to go see the endocronoligist and now I am on HRT and it has improved. Good stuff that HRT!

Another reason is that I have a first cousin that I grew up with and there were 8 guy cousins and 3 female cousins, we were all close and we were literally 6 mos apart from 1st to last. The one cousin after graduating high school and going to college "decided" (you see, there's that word again) that he was gay and came home for Christmas one year and sprung it on the rest of the family. He was the normal guy growing up and his brother got married to a woman and then BOOM!

I also have 2 sons, one of which (my youngest) has some female tendicies that worry me. He likes to hang around girls and do girly things, like cheerleading and gymnastics, rather than playing football and basketball (although he is good at it). I pray to God that he will NOT come home for Christmas with a SURPRISE!

[CeeLo]

I just want to know who would lead when dancing at the reception?

That avvy would turn any GAY man straight! Holy Smokes! How can you look at that and say I want the GUY she's with?