one8nine's opinion on pct (links to side effect control too)

[one8nine]

Let's also start by saying that you don't have to run post cycle therapy.........you also don't have to wipe your ass after taking a dump: it's just a really really good idea to do these things

Ok, so while we're on the cycle, are natural test production is going down to compensate for the exogeneous test intake, and our production of other steroid hormones (i.e. Estrogen, Cortisol, etc.) is going up to compensate for the heightened test levels. When we come off a cycle, we cease intake of exogeneous testosterone. In other words, we have very low test levels, and very high cortisol and estrogen levels: it's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we had while starting our cycle.

Okay I decided to make this thread so i can link to it later for people because i describe my pct opinion in almost every thread i try to help in so I'm just saving a little time

pct should last 4-6 weeks. this is why:

Basically every drug has a half life, steroids included. If for example, you were to inject 1000mg of testosterone cypionate once weekly, for 10 weeks, how would you know when you were "off"? Would you be "off" when you had finished your last dose? You would be able to calculate this from the half life of testosterone cypionate. The half life of testosterone cypionate is around 12 days. This means that 12 days from your last shot of 1000mg of testosterone cypionate (Time to start PCT? You decide.), your blood levels of testosterone cypionate will contain 500mg of the steroid. Another 12 days from then, i.e. 24 days from last dose, your blood levels will contain 250mg of the steroid. This amount then keeps halving every 12 days. At 48 days (almost 2 months) from your last dose, your blood levels will still contain 67.5mg of testosterone cypionate.

SERM-
Nolvadex should always be the base of a pct, between 20mg-40mg.
Clomid is OKAY if used correctly
many people abuse the drug by using dosages between 150mg-300mg and getting terrible side effects.
keep the dosage 25mg daily IF you use it.
AI-
By the right AI i mean either:
Proviron 50mg (lowers SHBG, lowers aromatization)
Aromasin 50mg (lowers aromatization, unaffected by nolva).
Two bad choices for AI in pct are letro and Arimidex:
letro can cause an estrogen rebound when stopped.
Arimidex and Nolvadex reduce each others effectiveness.
HCG-
For cycles over 10 weeks, or cycles including a 19nor, or cycles exceeding a gram per week i say include hcg. personally my hcg protocol is 4 weeks long, starting 2 weeks before pct, ending 2 weeks into pct at 500iu 2x a week.
for example
1-10 test e
1-8 deca
11-14 hcg
13-16 pct

now heres where i put it all together:
Good PCT = SERM + AI + HCG
1. hcg primes your nuts to get nice and juicy, a head start in growing back to normal, even before pct starts
2. Nolvadex blocks existing estrogen, allowing your body to get rid of it.
3. Proviron/Arimidex block the aromatize enzyme, preventing further creation of estrogen. Furthermore Proviron can bind to SHBG making the testosterone you already have more effective.

days after last shot to start pct:
Decanoate: 21 days
Cypionate: 18 days
Enanthate: 14 days
Propionate: 2 days
Acetate: 1 day
17aa/suspension: Next day

add one week if you are dealing with Nandrolone or Trenbolone, they have nasty metabolites that stick around after the ester clears

ex:
(-2)-2:hcg 500iu 2x a week (optional)
1-6: nolva 20mg ed
1-4: clomid 25mg (optional)
1-4: proviron 50mg ed OR 1-4: aromasin 50mg ed




heres my thread on AIs on cycle / dealing with side effects
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=354229

hcg crash course
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?p=4127466

dosing your drugs
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?p=4150818

[Swifto]

okay i decided to make this thread so i can link to it later for people because i describe my pct opinion in almost every thread i try to help in so I'm just saving a little time

i have a few opinions on pct... I'm not really going too deep into my reasoning but if you research each of the drugs you'll see why i think this way i think

-pct should last 4-6 weeks
-Nolvadex should always be the base of a pct, between 20mg-40mg.
-never use clomid, it sucks. there is nothing that clomid can do at 150mg that Nolvadex cant do at 20mg, with less side effects. there is no reason to use it.
-a good addition to pct is the right AI. by the right AI i mean either proviron 50mg (first choice) or Aromasin 50mg (second choice). 2 bad choices for AI in pct are letro and Arimidex. letro can cause an estrogen rebound when stopped. Arimidex and Nolvadex reduce each others effectiveness.
-for cycles over 10 weeks, or cycles including a 19nor, or cycles exceeding a gram per week i say include hcg. personally my hcg protocol is 4 weeks long, starting 2 weeks before pct, ending 2 weeks into pct at 500iu 2x a week.
for example
1-10 test e
1-8 deca
11-14 hcg
13-16 pct

now heres where i put it all together:
hcg primes your nuts to get nice and juice, a head start in growing back to normal, even before pct starts
Nolvadex blocks existing estrogen, allowing your body to get rid of it
proviron/Arimidex block the aromatize enzyme, preventing further creating of estrogen

days after last shot to start pct:
Decanoate: 21 days
Cypionate: 18 days
Enanthate: 14 days
Propionate: 2 days
Acetate: 1 day
17aa/suspension: Next day

add one week if you are dealing with Nandrolone Decanoate or Trenbolone Enanthate, they have nasty metabolites that stick around after the ester clears

heres my thread on AIs on cycle / dealing with side effects
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=354229

Few things I dont agree with here. But I guess its your opinion.

Advising NOT to use Clomid isnt right at all IMHO. Nolva is also a carcinogen.

[Dukkit]

personally i use clomid, and nolva together. no side affects from the clomid. side affects are relative to the user. some users dont get side affects easy, or some do get sides but not enough to bother with.

i also use HCG at the same protocol you do.

plus, since i always prefer to run a 19-nor, i also use Caber during PCT. It helps alot with the lull in your sex drive and getting that penis hard.

oh and can you link me up to the scientific info that states Nolva and Arimidex shouldnt be used in conjuction? I use them both during PCT (along with the hcg, caber and clomid) and recover just fine. I got nice big bloated balls to show as evidence if you would like to see.

[Edgar]

Yes yes please put a pic of your balls, i do not beleive you!!!

[one8nine]

Few things I dont agree with here. But I guess its your opinion.

Advising NOT to use Clomid isnt right at all IMHO. Nolva is also a carcinogen.

just the response i was looking for =)
teach me something

what does clomid do that nolva doesnt?
ive never heard that about nolva do you have more details?

thanks!

[one8nine]

personally i use clomid, and nolva together. no side affects from the clomid. side affects are relative to the user. some users dont get side affects easy, or some do get sides but not enough to bother with.

i also use HCG at the same protocol you do.

plus, since i always prefer to run a 19-nor, i also use Caber during PCT. It helps alot with the lull in your sex drive and getting that penis hard.

oh and can you link me up to the scientific info that states Nolva and Arimidex shouldnt be used in conjuction? I use them both during PCT (along with the hcg, caber and clomid) and recover just fine. I got nice big bloated balls to show as evidence if you would like to see.

damn somebody posted a thread a few weeks ago. this is going to take some searching

i think it was the makers of arimidex that posted the study on their website

[one8nine]

Just something I found.. May or may not be relevant..

"ARIMIDEX should not be taken with tamoxifen or estrogen-containing therapies"

http://www.arimidex-us.com/index.aspx


"At a median follow-up of 33 months, the combination of ARIMIDEX and tamoxifen did not demonstrate any efficacy benefit when compared with tamoxifen in all patients as well as in the hormone receptor-positive subpopulation. This treatment arm was discontinued from the trial. Based on clinical and pharmacokinetic results from the ATAC trial, tamoxifen should not be administrated with anastrozole."

It further states that,

"Co-administration of anastrozole and tamoxifen resulted in a reduction of anastrozole plasma levels by 27% compared with those achieved with anastozole alone. Estrogen containing therapies should not be used with ARIMIDEX as they may diminish pharmacologic action."

http://www1.astrazeneca-us.com/pi/arimidex.pdf


In my opinion Aromasin should be used instead of Arimidex (L-dex), the only major problems being it's super expensive price and unavailability to the non-prescribed users..

this was the post that got me check the links

[Dukkit]

this was the post that got me check the links

thanks boss man. good shit.

[Flex-Appeal]

yea they say dont take together but what is their reasoning??? very curious

[Flex-Appeal]

well if i cant use the arimidex with tamox then use letro with tamox??

[Dukkit]

yea they say dont take together but what is their reasoning??? very curious

"Co-administration of anastrozole and tamoxifen resulted in a reduction of anastrozole plasma levels by 27% compared with those achieved with anastozole alone

that is the reasoning.

if you take the anastrozole and tamoxifen togther, your anastrozole levels will be reduced by 27%. but you dont want that. your taking anastrozole to get your anastrozole levels higher. so take one or the other.

thanks 189

[Dukkit]

well if i cant use the arimidex with tamox then use letro with tamox??

or aromisin

[Flex-Appeal]

heh only have access to AR-R products

[Dukkit]

heh only have access to AR-R products

dude, there are so many good research chem sites out there. just google research chems and look through the results till something strikes your fancy. there are so many way better products and prices at the other sites then on AR-R's

[one8nine]

well if i cant use the arimidex with tamox then use letro with tamox??

thats not a good mix either
letro causes a rebound effect of estrogen when you stop taking it (in some cases)
nolvadex will hinder on gains on cycle because it will prevent muscle breakdown too much, so your cant rebuild as much
basically
nolva=pct
letro=cycle

[Flex-Appeal]

what if i take .25mg of arimidex ed during cycle? that shouldn't hinder gains by itself

[one8nine]

what if i take .25mg of arimidex ed during cycle? that shouldn't hinder gains by itself

it should actually help them
estrogen is catabolic

[SNUKA]

since the nolvadex reduces the arimidex levels by up to 27% what if you just up the dose from .5mg/day to 1mg a day would this be just as effective as .5mg if there was no reduction in plasma levels to begin with?

[Amorphic]

it should actually help them
estrogen is catabolic

lets not take that too literally though. estrogen is required for muscle growth

[peachfuzz]

Nolva is also a carcinogen.

so is testosterone...

it should actually help them
estrogen is catabolic

not true at all...

[peachfuzz]

since the nolvadex reduces the arimidex levels by up to 27% what if you just up the dose from .5mg/day to 1mg a day would this be just as effective as .5mg if there was no reduction in plasma levels to begin with?

yes, however it would be expensive, and aromasin would still be a better choice due to its ability to lower SHBG levels.

[Amorphic]

so is testosterone...



not true at all...

since when is testosterone carcinogenic?

[peachfuzz]

since when is testosterone carcinogenic?

i dunno? how long has testosterone been around?

[Amorphic]

i dunno? how long has testosterone been around?

want to show me a link for some proof? i find that hard it hard to believe.

[peachfuzz]

sure how many would you like?

http://www.ehs.wustl.edu/Bluebook/carcinogenlist.html

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...1921303a0.html

http://delloyd.50megs.com/hazard/listcn.html

[peachfuzz]

estrogen is also listed, and im sure we can agree that testosterone can convert to estrogen.

http://www.womensenews.org/article.c...ontext/archive

http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/c.../full/95/3/185

https://content.nejm.org/cgi/content...4/3/270?ck=nck

[Amorphic]

sure how many would you like?

http://www.ehs.wustl.edu/Bluebook/carcinogenlist.html

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...1921303a0.html

http://delloyd.50megs.com/hazard/listcn.html

estrogen is also listed, and im sure we can agree that testosterone can convert to estrogen.

http://www.womensenews.org/article.c...ontext/archive

http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/c.../full/95/3/185

https://content.nejm.org/cgi/content...4/3/270?ck=nck

interesting. i hope i didnt come off as sarcastic when i asked for some proof, ive never actually read much about the carcinogenity of anything other than nolvadex

[peachfuzz]

interesting. i hope i didnt come off as sarcastic when i asked for some proof, ive never actually read much about the carcinogenity of anything other than nolvadex

Sarcastic...no

Skeptical...yes

Seems everything is carcinogenic these days. Your damned if you do, damned if you dont. What the hell kinda world is this?

[one8nine]

it should actually help them
estrogen is catabolic

sorry guys let me qualify
your estrogen needs to be in a proper range.
if estrogen is too low, you wont gain
if estrogen gets too high, you wont gain

ais can be used to make sure estrogen doesnt get too high
but at the same time dont overdo them

[one8nine]

just the response i was looking for =)
teach me something

what does clomid do that nolva doesnt?
ive never heard that about nolva do you have more details?

thanks!

anybody?

[Flex-Appeal]

BUMP this! read it for all you new member's. useful info that you ask everyday

[romo6]

yes interesting thread.

[Swifto]

just the response i was looking for =)
teach me something

what does clomid do that nolva doesnt?
ive never heard that about nolva do you have more details?

thanks!

Clomid is far more active in the pituitary than Tamox is. Tamox is more effective fighting gyno, as is Raloxifene. Whilst Tormifene and Clomid are through and through PCT meds IMHO.

There is also far more research on Clomid being taken by hypogondal and eugondal males. Many more studies. Its seems to be an Endo first line of attack.

Sides only seem to appear when larger doses are used. Emotional sides can be attributed to Clomid's use, although they dont seem to be apparent using smaller doses of 25-50mg/ED. Some users really dont agree with Clomid and get the sides at any dose, but there certainly the minority.

Users often point the finger at Clomid and it being their cause negative emotions, even though fluctuating hormones during PCT are the true culprit too IMO.

Studies state 25-50mg/ED will suffice for hypogondal males. Sides seem to appear when users protocols go over these dosages and use the "300mg Day 1" dosage, which I think is crazy. Its just not needed.

It also seems the other sides, like vision problems, seem to appear on these massive doses too.

[Dukkit]

i knew i took em both for a reason.

[Swifto]

Here's a study stating how effective "25mg/ED" is...

Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism.

Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E.
Department of Urology, NY Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY, USA.


AIM: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio. METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed. RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients. CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.

PMID: 16422830 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Anthony Roberts was so agaisnt Clomid as he got sides from its use. It doesnt mean everyone will.

[Dukkit]

i dont get sides. and i use high ass doses. but thanks to this info ill lower it a bit. lol.

i was doing 300mg a day for the first week! and then 200 mg for the 2nd week. 100 mg for the 3rd week and 50 mg for the 4th week. it worked for me. but next PCT ill try lowering and see how my recovery goes.

[one8nine]

i like it how do i search for a similar study regarding nolvadex to compare? i always use google but i hoping there is a better way

i dont hate clomid because of AR, if i took the time to read his crap and found out he didnt like it that might make me like it more
good point about the dosage ive only used it in 150mg/200mg dosages

[DS21]

Bump, great info!!

[peachfuzz]

from my understanding clomid decreases the response of LH to LHRH. clomid also exerts some estrogenic effect at the pituitary. Nolvadex does neither. Dont have time to find the studies but ill dig em up later.

[customworksking]

bump starting my PCT n 2 days great info as well thanx !