Who REALLY uses human shields: Hamas or Israel?

[BuffedGuy]

It's hard to cheer for a bunch who follow a religion that executes infidels:

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2005/11/2...sexual-conduct
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Iran

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Executio...rs_controversy

. . . so you'll no doubt understand why I can't get too excited in either side when both are guilty of religious excess.

Peace be unto you, Tock.

The links are about executing those who commit homosexual acts, not infidels. All three of the Abrahamic religions--Judaism, Christianity, and Islam--have the punishment of death for homosexual acts. Therefore it is not fair to target Islam alone for this. The Bible says:

Leviticus 20:13

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

However, I have posted in the Ask a Muslim thread about the Islamic view towards homosexuals. Hold on, let me find it...

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[Tock]

Peace be unto you, Tock.

The links are about executing those who commit homosexual acts, not infidels. All three of the Abrahamic religions--Judaism, Christianity, and Islam--have the punishment of death for homosexual acts. Therefore it is not fair to target Islam alone for this.

I don't give any slack to any religion that won't mind its own business. Murdering gays, whether they're members of your own religion or not, is flatly inexcusable. Some christians want to send practicing gays to jail where, oddly enough, they'll get unlimited opportunity to engage in gay sex, but that's for another rant). Which ones? Not the liberal ones, for sure. But as a for instance, Conservative Christians own and operate the Texas Republican Party, and their party platform for the past 20 years has demanded that the government do to gays what the Nazis did to Jews in the 1930's. And, it might interest you to know, that these are the people who elected George Bush as Texas Governor, and then put him up for election as US President.

Anyway.

The Bible says:

Leviticus 20:13

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

However, I have posted in the Ask a Muslim thread about the Islamic view towards homosexuals. Hold on, let me find it...

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

Not that I really care what the Bible says, but nobody seems to know exactly who wrote this part.
But, I'll have to continue this later, I gotta make like a nose in winter and run . . .

[D7M]

Peace be unto you, Tock.

The links are about executing those who commit homosexual acts, not infidels. All three of the Abrahamic religions--Judaism, Christianity, and Islam--have the punishment of death for homosexual acts. Therefore it is not fair to target Islam alone for this. The Bible says:

Leviticus 20:13

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

However, I have posted in the Ask a Muslim thread about the Islamic view towards homosexuals. Hold on, let me find it...

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

I try to stay out of these kind of threads, but I'll jump in here, because this is simply mis-information.

Christianity does not hold the death penalty for homosexual acts.

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Derek.

I try to stay out of these kind of threads, but I'll jump in here, because this is simply mis-information.

Christianity does not hold the death penalty for homosexual acts.

There are many ways to respond to this. First, the Christian Church *did* execute homosexuals historically. In the year 390 A.D., Christian Rome formally prescribed the penalty of death for homosexuality. Second, there are still Christian groups today--such as the Christian Reconstructionists, the Christian Identity movement, etc--that still believe that this should be the proper punishment.

I would, however, agree with you that most Christians do not feel this way. Yet, the fact is that even if we say that the Old Testament Laws were abolished--despite Jesus [as] saying:

Matthew 5:17-20

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

But even if we say that the Old Testament laws were abolished by the sacrifice of Jesus [as]--in opposition to his own words above--what we can say is that at one point in time God *did* himself advocate the death penalty for homosexuals, and the Children of Israel *did* use this punishment against homosexuals, and what they did was in accordance to what God commanded. Therefore, for a Christian to criticize executing homosexuals as evil is to call God's Laws evil, and to call God evil. For hundreds of years before Christ appeared, men were following the Law, as prescribed by God Himself. And according to Christianity, Jesus is God--they are one and the same. Therefore, according to Christianity, for hundreds and hundreds of years, Jesus [as] called for the killing of homosexuals.

Nonetheless, perhaps I should have reworded what I said, and merely said that the religious books of all three religions--of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam--call for the execution of those who commit homosexual acts. As for the Islamic view towards homosexuality, I have clarified in the post I linked to. The Islamic punishments (hadood) are specific to Muslims, not to Non-Muslims, who are allowed to live under their own laws as they please.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[D7M]

Peace be unto you, Derek.



There are many ways to respond to this. First, the Christian Church *did* execute homosexuals historically. In the year 390 A.D., Christian Rome formally prescribed the penalty of death for homosexuality. Second, there are still Christian groups today--such as the Christian Reconstructionists, the Christian Identity movement, etc--that still believe that this should be the proper punishment.

I would, however, agree with you that most Christians do not feel this way. Yet, the fact is that even if we say that the Old Testament Laws were abolished--despite Jesus [as] saying:

Matthew 5:17-20

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

But even if we say that the Old Testament laws were abolished by the sacrifice of Jesus [as]--in opposition to his own words above--what we can say is that at one point in time God *did* himself advocate the death penalty for homosexuals, and the Children of Israel *did* use this punishment against homosexuals, and what they did was in accordance to what God commanded. Therefore, for a Christian to criticize executing homosexuals as evil is to call God's Laws evil, and to call God evil. For hundreds of years before Christ appeared, men were following the Law, as prescribed by God Himself. And according to Christianity, Jesus is God--they are one and the same. Therefore, according to Christianity, for hundreds and hundreds of years, Jesus [as] called for the killing of homosexuals.

Nonetheless, perhaps I should have reworded what I said, and merely said that the religious books of all three religions--of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam--call for the execution of those who commit homosexual acts. As for the Islamic view towards homosexuality, I have clarified in the post I linked to. The Islamic punishments (hadood) are specific to Muslims, not to Non-Muslims, who are allowed to live under their own laws as they please.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

I should have been more precise: contemporary, main-stream Christianity does not hold the death penalty for homosexuality.

As for Christ's words that you quoted (Matt 5), and the abolition of the Mosaic law: It's easy to pull out a single verse from a pericope, and provide any kind of exegesis one wants. That doesn't really mean anything to me. Also, Christian's don't follow all of the law, obviously. Some call it super-sessionism. The "first" council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.

I don't know if Christians would call executing homosexuals evil. But, if a Christian did say that such an act was contrary to God's law, he would be completed justified, and would not be implying that God's law is evil. Christians do not need to be circumcised (to enter the Church), but that doesn't mean they think circumcision is evil. Again, Acts 15, dude. You seem to use good logic, but as they say, "ex falso sequitor quodbilet"

And I have no idea what you mean by this: "Therefore, according to Christianity, for hundreds and hundreds of years, Jesus [as] called for the killing of homosexuals."

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Derek.

I should have been more precise: contemporary, main-stream Christianity does not hold the death penalty for homosexuality.

I'll agree with that.

As for Christ's words that you quoted (Matt 5), and the abolition of the Mosaic law: It's easy to pull out a single verse from a pericope, and provide any kind of exegesis one wants. That doesn't really mean anything to me. Also, Christian's don't follow all of the law, obviously. Some call it super-sessionism. The "first" council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.

You said that Christians don't follow all of the law, but Jesus [as] says in that verse that "not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law." So how would you explain this?

I don't know if Christians would call executing homosexuals evil. But, if a Christian did say that such an act was contrary to God's law, he would be completed justified, and would not be implying that God's law is evil.

I'd be OK with the way you worded this. My only complaint is/was this: I have seen many practicing Christians criticize Islam for the punishment of stoning--or the execution of homosexuals--as being wicked, evil, barbaric, etc. And I am saying that this is not appropriate, because even from a Christian belief, this would logically mean that God enacted an evil punishment for so many hundreds of years to the Children of Israel. Calling a divine law to be barbaric is surely tantamount to blasphemy and disbelief.

Christians do not need to be circumcised (to enter the Church), but that doesn't mean they think circumcision is evil.

Understood. And I'm not disagreeing with you on this. What I *am* saying is that it would be absurd for a practicing Christian to say that Jews circumcising themselves is barbaric, since they (the Christians) believe that their own God ordained that.

And I have no idea what you mean by this: "Therefore, according to Christianity, for hundreds and hundreds of years, Jesus [as] called for the killing of homosexuals."

The God in the Old Testament ordained the execution of homosexuals. Christians believe that Jesus and God are the same entity, i.e. Jesus is God. Ipso facto, Jesus is the one who ordained the execution of homosexuals, and therefore it is not right for Christians to criticize Prophet Muhammad [s] for ordaining the exact same punishment. Furthermore, Moses [as] himself followed this same law, and Prophet Muhammad [s] simply upheld and affirmed it.

To put this bluntly: oftentimes Christians criticize Islam for certain things, and they are completely oblivious to the fact that we got it from you guys to begin with, since our religion affirms the revelations that came before us.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.