Kratos, the way you have pathetically misquoted the Quran angers me. I am going to slam you back. Just you wait for my response. Just you wait.
Senior Member
Kratos, the way you have pathetically misquoted the Quran angers me. I am going to slam you back. Just you wait for my response. Just you wait.
I feel accomplished
No, you don't understand. You don't understand. You don't understand.Originally Posted by BuffedGuy
This laughing of yours truly shows that you do not know what you are talking about at all.
Just because you made cursory visits to Turkey does not mean you have suddenly become experts on the matter. Rather, knowledge comes through education. Reading, reading, reading. It takes active effort. Do not speak on issues which you are not learned about.
Practicing Muslims are heavily persecuted in such countries as Turkey, Egypt, etc. The fact that you do not know this shows your profound ignorance of the region, and your inability to appreciate nuances. The Muslim political parties (in both Turkey and Egypt) are banned, and their supporters languish in jails. Those men who have beards and those women who wear the headscarf are persecuted.
More to come, God-Willing.
head scarfs and beards are most certainly not persecuted. Totally common.
Only in State buildings and University to deminish social preasures to conform to Islam. They have chosen religious freedom instead of forcing Islam on the people people.
CHEMICALLY ENGINEERED
Buff, just keep it to a few paragraphs please haha
looking forward to it.
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Or maybe you ment religious freedom like this buff?
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...9/155943.shtml
Member
Nice point.
I feel accomplished
Muslims sure are nice to other religions in non-secular countries
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...n-in-Iran.html
Senior Member
Let's play Kratos's game. I guarantee that you will lose, Kratos. I will now respond to fire with fire. You talk about the Quran (taking verses out of context and with wrong translations)...let's now look at your holy book, the Bible. The gloves are off. Let's begin:
Here is what the Bible says about people who believe in a god other than the Christian one:
Exodus 22:20 "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."
Instruction to murder any of your relatives or friends if they spread other religious faiths:
Deuteronomy 13:6-10 "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die..."
Let's talk about religious tolerance. Let's see what the Bible says on how to treat a city of people who follow another religion...in fact, it says to massacre the entire city:
Deuteronomy 13:12-15 "If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."
If you worship other than the Judeo-Christian God, you are to be killed:
Deuteronomy 17:2-5 "If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath ...gone and served other gods, and worshiped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and inquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."
The Bible instructs to murder the leaders of other religions:
1 King 18:19; 18:40 "Now therefore send, and gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel's table....And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there."
The Bible encourages to destroy the religious temples of other faiths:
2 Kings 11:18: "And all the people of the land went into the house of Baal, and brake it down; his altars and his images brake they in pieces thoroughly and slew Mattan the priest of Baal before the altars...More murder of whoever does not conform to the faith:
2 Chronicles 15:10-15 That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. [The LORD] was found of them: and the LORD gave them rest round about."
Here is another list provided from an anti-Christian website, which "explains" how the Bible says to kill all those who do not worship the Judeo-Christian god:
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20
Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5
Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10
Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17
Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22
Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19
The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7
Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12
False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9
A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33
Oh and there's much more. Do you want any more? It's very easy to use your tactics, and just go to random anti-this or anti-that websites.
As a side-note, I don't encourage this sort of un-intellectual discourse. I'm just using your medicine on you.
Senior Member
Oh don't worry, I'm not going to reply in an intellectual manner. I am going to use the same sophomoric tactics that Kratos uses. In other words, I'm just going to sling mud in a sensationalist way. Does Kratos think that he is the only one blessed with google? You don't think I can google a bunch of Anti-Christian websites and just copy/paste loads of crap here?Buff, just keep it to a few paragraphs please haha
looking forward to it.
Senior Member
And for the record, I've already responded to many of the Quranic "quotes" you gave. It's in my Ask a Muslim thread. I'll respond to each of them though. Just need some time. In any case, I've already linked everyone to the Oxford translation of the Quran. So whoever wants to read the Quran to see what it is about, please do so. I encourage that. Here is the link to read the Oxford translation of the Quran:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?nkey2yqygyq
Kratos, I really dislike the style you have adopted. It does not help anyone.
Last edited by BuffedGuy; 03-25-2009 at 09:04 PM.
AR-Elite Hall of Famer (RETIRED)
Sorry, Buffed, fail.
Quoting several verses from the OT, and claiming that it is somehow Christian is wrong in so many ways...and you know this.
If you want to "mud sling" with Christian verses, show me any, any verses from the NT advocating the murder of a non-Christian.
I feel accomplished
I'm not religious so it isn't my book, hack it up all you want
I feel accomplished
Buff, you haven't responded at all to the way Muslims are to other religious groups in secular countries nor have you responded to their distruction of artifacts I posted on the first page. This is why Isreal should remain as it is, as the record for the care of Muslim places and things is unbleamished. Muslims are allowd access to their holy places. The refugees, oh well, gotta break some eggs to make an omlette sometimes.
End of story
Anabolic Member
You might want to put the gloves back on because this thread inevitably will end up being locked.
I feel accomplished
bible quotes you picked are pretty lame dude
you just said what you felt like and put a number after most of them
Senior Member
No Derek, not fail. You can't make up the rules of debate here.
First of all, I am just mud-slinging here. I am not actually trying to claim that the religion of Christianity is murderous or intolerant or this or that. I am only using the tactic of Kratos back at him.
You don't think that we Muslims also have proper understandings of the verses he (mis)quoted and mistranslated, totally out of context?
I don't *actually* think your religion teaches to kill non-believers. But do you actually think mine does? If so, you are guilty of a horrible double-standard, whereby you don't mind using a random string of half-quotes when it is against Islam, but when it is against Christianity, then suddenly it's off limits. You must apply the same standard to both.
Furthermore, we've already discussed this issue before, Derek. You as a Christian cannot shield yourself from the Old Testament entirely. The fact of the matter is that your God commanded the believers to do certain things. Regardless of if those things were abrogated, it still comes into play in a polemical debate. Look at it this way: let's pretend if Prophet Muhammad [s] butchered a million people. (He didn't, but I'm just saying, hypothetically.) But then when you guys point that out, I would say "no no, that law of butchering was abrogated by the law of mercy." Do you think this would neutralize the issue? Of course not. The fact of the matter is: why did he [s] kill those millions of people before the law was abrogated? (Of course, this is all hypothetical, since the Prophet Muhammad [s] didn't kill millions of people, and I seek refuge from uttering such a thing.)
So the issue is the same here. Why did the Judeo-Christian prophets kill so many people of other faiths? Why did the Judeo-Christian God command them to do that?
Again, you can't get off that easy.
Furthermore, the debate was not simply about killing non-believers. In fact, Kratos didn't quote any verse in the Quran that said to kill non-believers (since there isn't any). It was about making the Quran out to be an intolerant book in general. So I quoted many verses from the New Testament that come across as intolerant (if placed in a list rapid fire manner, as Kratos arranged them).
And again, you can't decide to exclude the OT. That's fair game. It doesn't make logical sense to say it's off limits. Even if it was all abrogated, the fact is that your Judeo-Christian prophets did such and such on the commands of your Judeo-Christian God.
But again, I don't like this style of polemical debate to begin with. I rather like studying these matters in intellectual and academic ways.
In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.
Last edited by BuffedGuy; 03-25-2009 at 09:18 PM.
Senior Member
Umm, meanwhile you mistranslated verses entirely. And I didn't write that up for the Bible. I just copied/pasted from anti-Christian websites, just like you copied/pasted from anti-Islam websites. I personally would never write in such a sophomoric and sensationalist manner. And I included tons of actual quotes. Go learn to read first. The list with paraphrasing came afterward.
Last edited by BuffedGuy; 03-25-2009 at 09:20 PM.
I feel accomplished
lets get our heads out of history and our asses for a min buff as I already concided the Ottomans to be progressive for their time.
Christians and Jews moved forward
Muslims, I'll let you fill in the blanks on where the Muslim world is on acceptance
Senior Member
Good. I'm glad your google research confirmed that.
Do you have any idea why?Christians and Jews moved forward Muslims, I'll let you fill in the blanks on where the Muslim world is on acceptance
It's like judging blacks for all that goes on in Africa.
The fact is that the post-colonial world is wayyyy behind in ALL aspects. Hmmm, I wonder why! Once you colonize a land for hundreds of years, don't expect them to be up and running right away. Do you know that many Muslim countries only got independence very recently? It took America two hundred years to treat blacks like human beings. Just in the sixties, Americans were hosing down blacks on the street.
Get some perspective dude.
The fight for the rights of Non-Muslims in Muslim lands is on. My own favorite Islamic priest that I follow has dedicated his life to it. It will take time and a lot of effort. Just like the civil rights movement didn't happen overnight.
And by the way, you said "jews and christians" have moved on. Christians have progressed a lot on this matter, but not Jews. The Zionists of Israel are way more oppressive of non-Jews than Muslims are of Non-Muslims.
Last edited by BuffedGuy; 03-25-2009 at 09:27 PM.
I feel accomplished
Haha, yeah my google research. No dude, everything I said was true. It just sucked even worse to be a Jew or other religion in Europe at the time. Just cause one place sucks more than another doesn't make the place that sucks less a great place to live.
Does it matter why pertaining the topic at hand?
So you agree, the Muslim world is a mess and they shouldn't be given control of Isreal. See that wasn't so hard.
And why don't you get some perspective
one has nothing to do with the other
fundamentalism is spreading like a cancer to the religion
Senior Member
In any case, this thread was about Palestinians. The argument that Muslims have been oppressive and hence it is justified to oppress Palestinians is as inane as saying that it was ok to decimate the Native Americans since they were "barbaric" and "intolerant/cruel savages" before the Europeans arrived. It's as inane as saying that the enslavement of blacks by whites was justified because the blacks took their own as slaves, or took others as slaves.
These are horrible arguments. Nobody would tolerate them when it comes to anyone other than Muslims/Arabs.
Senior Member
First of all, your argument is retarded. The fundamentalist extremism that is surging in Muslim lands is *because* of the Israeli and Western occupations of Muslim lands. So the cause of the "cancer" was the colonial "radiation".
Secondly, we're not talking about giving Palestine control of Israel. Please try staying on point here. The Palestinian people as a whole--and myself included--have said we just want a Palestinian state, side-by-side with the Israeli state. So you are moving the goalposts altogether. The issue is not "should the Palestinians rule Israel", but rather: "Should the Palestinians be able to rule themselves" or--worded another way--"Is the Israeli colonization of native Palestinian land justified?" Or another way: "do we believe in international law, the right of return, the Geneva conventions, and popular sovereignty?"
Thirdly, you are wrong altogether about the Jews in Muslim lands. If you had learned stuff from history books--instead of from the internet--you would know that Jews had their Golden Age under Muslim rule. They did not just survive under Muslim rule; they flourished and thrived. This is attested to by the Orthodox anti-Zionist Jewish groups themselves, and accepted by neutral academics who have no agenda.
Peace.
I feel accomplished
won't be the first time people were displaced, won't be the last time
injustice is part of history
lets move forward
for now the mosques and artifacts important to your religion are safe
this is what we have to work
Senior Member
Umm, no. If the Soviet Union invaded and occupied Florida...and if Flordian Americans had fought back for 60 years to repel the Soviet invaders...do you think they would just give up in 60 years? Do you think anyone would be saying "oh well, people are displaced all the time."
The reality is that you only think that of "brown people" who to you are just like animals. Sure, they get displaced; doesn't that stuff happen all the time in those animal lands of Africa and Asia?
But if it happened to any white people in America--to Americans--then suddenly it's a different story. You know it.
When 9/11 happened, should we say: "that's war. People die all the time." ? Did Americans say that? No. But when it's brown people, then hey, it's ok. If 2,000 Americans die, then all hell must break loose. If 2,000 brown sand n***ers die, then who the hell cares. It's just population control.
Furthermore, your argument that our mosques and artifacts are safe is completely incorrect. Masjid al-Aqsa--the third holiest mosque to Muslims--is under constant threat of being built over by Israeli buildings.
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Life wasn't all that, it was just better then elsewhere. They were still second class citizens. They did OK though.
I feel accomplished
oh really, you're being dramatic-
Senior Member
Sure. I'll bite.
Senior Member
The Palestinians on the ground have issued statements that this is the case. I certainly can't prove it. But Israel has demolished THOUSANDS of Palestinian homes and THOUSANDS of mosques, so I don't think this is that out there. By the way, the Dome of the Rock mosque is NOT Al-Aqsa mosque.
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well they can't even fix a walkway damaged by and earthquake without it making international news. I understand this is a sensitive site, but the outrage from the muslim community is a bit much. I'm sure the press will keep them honest.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1350273.ece
Senior Member
When Israel invades Gaza, it does so to "kill terrorists." When Israel demolishes homes, it is "clearing illegal housing settlements" or "removing structures built without a building permit." This is the typical language used by Israelis to justify their land-clearing operations.
Therefore, if Israeli bull-dozers came near the Al-Aqsa mosque, I doubt Palestinians would trust them with their "we're here to repair a walkway" excuse.
Plus, the issue was this (mentioned in the article you quoted):
The Waqf religious trust in Jerusalem, which administers the site, accused Israel of undermining the foundations of the Al-Aqsa compound. Adnan Husseini, the Waqf chairman, said he first learned about the construction plans through media reports and warned the police and Jerusalem city council that the plan would spark fierce opposition.The Waqf trust says that they were not informed about any of this, which puts Israel's intentions to question.
I certainly don't trust Israel. Not one bit.
Member
Originally Posted by BuffedGuy
You do not know that in Muslim lands nowadays, religious Muslims are heavily persecuted.the statement said by buff is very true. practicing muslims are often or i should say most of the time are tortured by dictator leaders or governements, and this is no a joke. they are very afraid of them to control any majority party or endorse any opponent.this made me
Been in turkey 3 times, and in tunisa 1 time.
you said that you have visited tunisia. let me ask u a question, have you ever seen a president who gets elected for last 25 yrs without getting beaten up by no opponent. that's Mr zeen alabideen the president of tunisia the champ that should tell you something about his polocies. I heard he's ganna be the king in the next term or so.
Member
here is another terrorist from gitmo speaking of the welcome he has recieved from the soldiers at gitmo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXLDtAYm6SI
Member
Another gitmo prisoner who got released with no charges.
I still don't get it, if they claim that this people are terrorists then why there isn't a genuine court, why r they being stripped from their rights as a human being, why r they being released with no charges, why can't they have the right to meet with their lawyers. why..why....????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ_uB...eature=channel
I feel accomplished
I don't expect you to, it's your history and you have a right to that.
Member
Reading?? your joking right??This laughing of yours truly shows that you do not know what you are talking about at all.
Just because you made cursory visits to Turkey does not mean you have suddenly become experts on the matter. Rather, knowledge comes through education. Reading, reading, reading. It takes active effort. Do not speak on issues which you are not learned about.
Practicing Muslims are heavily persecuted in such countries as Turkey, Egypt, etc. The fact that you do not know this shows your profound ignorance of the region, and your inability to appreciate nuances. The Muslim political parties (in both Turkey and Egypt) are banned, and their supporters languish in jails. Those men who have beards and those women who wear the headscarf are persecuted.
More to come, God-Willing.
How about you GO and SEE (instead of just reading)
I have been there 3 times and what you are saying
is completley BS, you know why? because i have SEEN this.
I dont care what your muslim teacher tells you in class,
this is not true at all in regards of turkey. I was there when
it was ramadan (the muslim fasting days) and guess what?
The WHOLE city was fasting, and they were also extra conservative
under this period of time compared to the other times i was there
so who exactly is persecuteing the muslims over there?? I mean all the citizens are strong muslim belivers although they are more modern muslims then arabs but still belivers.
Now if you are talking about a political party that
is against a very strict muslim party, thats a whole diffrent
thing, <--- thats just politics.
I feel accomplished
I'm not sure what you mean. The constitution declares Islam as the official state religion and requires the President to be Muslim. It's a 99% Muslim country.
In 1948 there were 105k jews living there. Now there are virtually none...who's being persicuted?
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There is no acceptable soloution to the Muslim world that doesn't include dispersal/genocide/conversion of all Jews in Israel.
Member
Quoted for truth
Member
Chariff, i hope your not talking about turkey or
tunisia now? because if you ever been there you
know thats not true, The leaders are muslims
and the citizens are muslims, so you see it makes no sense?
Senior Member
Please stop talking nonsense. Hamas are some of the most radical Muslims out there, and they have said that they do not want a genocide, expulsion, or forced conversion of Jews in Israel. Rather, they have said that they want a two-state solution, a Palestinian state side-by-side with an Israeli one. The vast majority of Palestinians want peace with Israel.
The vast majority of the Muslims want this sort of solution. Nobody wants this 'dispersal/genocide/conversion' nonsense you are talking about. Even the *MOST* radical Muslims who will only be happy with a one-state solution under Palestinian control say that the Jews can live there as citizens under the Islamic state.
But again, the majority of the Palestinians and Muslims want a two-state solution. This includes the Palestinian people who signed a document to this effect, which included even the radical Hamas members.
You have lost all your credibility. You are a complete bigot, who speaks utter nonsense.
In fact, you blathering bigot, it is many of the Israelis--since the creation of the state of Israel--who want the expulsion of all Arabs from Eretz Israel. This has been stated by Israeli prime ministers themselves. The fact that you don't realize this testifies to your poor grasp of the issues. It also proves your bigotry. You keep crying about Muslims calling for an expulsion of Jews and yet are completely oblivious of the very real Israeli intention to expel Arabs, something which they have actually enacted.
Last edited by BuffedGuy; 03-26-2009 at 03:00 PM.
Senior Member
I've been to the Muslim world, and unlike you, I have lived there for years.
And yes, reading is important. Obviously you are not well-read. In order to understand issues like these, you need to have both experience (which includes world travel) as well as book knowledge. You lack the latter. You don't even deny this. You are not well-read. You are not an educated person. You can't even spell properly. Every single one of your posts has egregious spelling mistakes in it, which testifies to your education level.
You are completely incapable of understanding nuances. Just because a person fasts, it does not mean that they are a conservative practicing Muslim. Even many liberal Muslims--who drink and party--fast in the month of Ramadan.I dont care what your muslim teacher tells you in class,
this is not true at all in regards of turkey. I was there when
it was ramadan (the muslim fasting days) and guess what?
The WHOLE city was fasting, and they were also extra conservative
under this period of time compared to the other times i was there
so who exactly is persecuteing the muslims over there?? I mean all the citizens are strong muslim belivers although they are more modern muslims then arabs but still belivers.
Again, the fact that you don't know of the persecution of practicing Muslims in secular Turkey--speaks to your profound ignorance. Listen, go pick up a book or two. Expand your mind.
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