Israel or Palestine?

[Undercover]

Palestine, as you see it today, is no less 'invented' than is the State of Israel.
It vanished 100's of years ago, falling eventually under Persian spears. What you see today is an Ottoman invention, an attempt to create an Islamic state that encompassed Jerusalem.
It is simply romantic to side with the 'original peoples of Palestine'; they are Turks, Moroccans and Persians.
Historically speaking, they are no more indigenous than the Jews who also want to settle. In fact i'd go further, but i'm not looking to upset people.

Wrong. "Recent genetic evidence has demonstrated that Palestinians as an ethnic group represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times," largely predating the Arabian Muslim conquest that resulted in their acculturation and the establishment of Arabic as the lingua franca, eventually becoming the sole vernacular of the locals, most of whom would over time also convert to Islam from various prior faiths."

I don't know where you got the idea that they're Turks, Moroccans, and Persians. That's like saying Egyptians are English or the Lebanese are French.

In fact, Palestinians, genetically and historically, are 'more Jewish' than Ashkenazi Jews. The argument is that why should a people who had nothing to do with the land for hundreds of years claim to be more deserving than the Palestinians. It doesn't seem fair that some European Jews have dual citizenship, while some Palestinians have none.

And you're wrong about the idea of Palestine. The boundaries have varied immensely long before the Ottoman Empire. What Palestinians claim to be modern day Palestine is not the Ottoman version, but rather the British mandate of Palestine (Sykes-Pico agreement and the Hussein-Mcmahon letters).

If someone doesn't see the 1940s situation in Israel as being analagous to Native American Indians coming to your town and evicting you and all of your neighbors because they lived there at one time centuries ago, then there is no point in arguing with that person.

Palestinians occupied the land most recently, and therefore they should be able to live there as citizens. Not the second class citizens that they are under the apartheid Israeli regime, where food, water, and medical care are used as weapons against 2 million innocent people. Causing 2 million people to suffer for the crimes of MAYBE a few THOUSAND terrorists will never be justified in my eyes, all politics aside.

What we have now is a big f**ing mess, and in my PERSONAL opinion the only solution would be a 2 state solution, and I use the word solution very hesitantly.

Agreed, but that can't happen with illegal settlements growing everywhere in the Palestinian territories. I really hope something comes out of the US-Israeli talks.

[Bio-boosted]

Wrong. "Recent genetic evidence has demonstrated that Palestinians as an ethnic group represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times," largely predating the Arabian Muslim conquest that resulted in their acculturation and the establishment of Arabic as the lingua franca, eventually becoming the sole vernacular of the locals, most of whom would over time also convert to Islam from various prior faiths."

I don't know where you got the idea that they're Turks, Moroccans, and Persians. That's like saying Egyptians are English or the Lebanese are French.

In fact, Palestinians, genetically and historically, are 'more Jewish' than Ashkenazi Jews. The argument is that why should a people who had nothing to do with the land for hundreds of years claim to be more deserving than the Palestinians. It doesn't seem fair that some European Jews have dual citizenship, while some Palestinians have none.

And you're wrong about the idea of Palestine. The boundaries have varied immensely long before the Ottoman Empire. What Palestinians claim to be modern day Palestine is not the Ottoman version, but rather the British mandate of Palestine (Sykes-Pico agreement and the Hussein-Mcmahon letters).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53ObB2WVFvw
Further more, as you've pointed out the boundaries have indeed varied over the years. I didn't want to bother going too far back but...
The land 'belonged' to the Egyptians who's neighbours were the Hebrews (Kingdom's of Judea & Israel). The Philistines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines) were the invaders.
These invaders/settlers waged a near constant war against the Jews - Chaim Herzog & Mordechai Gichon, Battles of the Bible, Barnes & Noble Publishing, 2006 - a classic being ole David & Goliath (Valley Of Elah)
Palestine was fully erased many times over the years, but the land spread you see today though is similar to biblical times- but are they peopled by ancient Canaanites today? No. This is their gene spread - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_%28Y-DNA%29
But of course the real problem is a religious one (imo, less a territorial one). The Jew is the fly in the ointment, it is their faith that forms the foundation of Islam. And now they have returned and occupy an important holy site. One they now share. As some desire, like that Iranian bigot dinner-jacket, if the Jews are wiped from existence Islam is purified. And it is this that is the real bother.
I'd bother with deeper detail, but it is late.

[thegodfather]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53ObB2WVFvw
Further more, as you've pointed out the boundaries have indeed varied over the years. I didn't want to bother going too far back but...
The land 'belonged' to the Egyptians who's neighbours were the Hebrews (Kingdom's of Judea & Israel). The Philistines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines) were the invaders.
These invaders/settlers waged a near constant war against the Jews - Chaim Herzog & Mordechai Gichon, Battles of the Bible, Barnes & Noble Publishing, 2006 - a classic being ole David & Goliath (Valley Of Elah)
Palestine was fully erased many times over the years, but the land spread you see today though is similar to biblical times- but are they peopled by ancient Canaanites today? No. This is their gene spread - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_%28Y-DNA%29
But of course the real problem is a religious one (imo, less a territorial one). The Jew is the fly in the ointment, it is their faith that forms the foundation of Islam. And now they have returned and occupy an important holy site. One they now share. As some desire, like that Iranian bigot dinner-jacket, if the Jews are wiped from existence Islam is purified. And it is this that is the real bother.
I'd bother with deeper detail, but it is late.

It is so trivial for you to go that far back in history. You only need to deal with 1919 and forward. Were people who had nothing to do with these past conflicts leaving peacefully on the presently occupied land? YES. Are these same people now being oppressed, demoted to 2nd class citizen status? YES. Is water, food, and medical treatment being used as a weapon and means of control over 3 million innocent civilians who have nothing to do with a 'conflict'? YES.

Who did what to who 1,000 years ago doesn't mean jack shit to the present situation. The Jewish settlers have uprooted people who had every right to live on the land that they were living on. Settlements are inside of the West Bank and Gaza which are against international law, they are illegal. Non-Jews do not have the right to move freely about 'their' land, and a host of other things. So there is in essence, no difference between what Israel is doing now, and what South Africa did for so many years. They oppressed the indigenous population, demoted them to 2nd class citizens, and evicted them from their land and forced them to live in ghettos.

Whats even more appauling, is that Israel is doing to 3 million people, what Germany did to millions Jewish people. The only difference? Israel is doing it slow and painfully, and Hitler did it quick and fast. Ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing, it doesn't matter what face you put on it.

Asking who attacked who, is really an argument like the chicken or the egg. Do Palestinians commit suicide bombings because they hate Jews and their religion? Of course not, that is as absurd as saying Arabs commit terrorism against America because we are "Free and prosperous, and they hate our way of life and our freedom." Arabs commit terrorism against the US because we have been meddling in their affairs for 60 years, overthrowing their elected governments, installing dictators, setting up bases on their holy land, etc. Palestinians commit suicide bombings because Israel has evicted millions of people from their land which was rightfully theirs, routinely targets civilians in engagements, uses civilians as human shields, starves them of food and water, denies them freedom of movement, denies them access to medical care, and has imprisoned them in two areas known as the Gaza strip and West Bank. After all, Palestinians didn't commit suicide bombings prior to the formation of Israel and the eviction of its people did it?

[Panzerfaust]

It is so trivial for you to go that far back in history. You only need to deal with 1919 and forward. Were people who had nothing to do with these past conflicts leaving peacefully on the presently occupied land? YES. Are these same people now being oppressed, demoted to 2nd class citizen status? YES. Is water, food, and medical treatment being used as a weapon and means of control over 3 million innocent civilians who have nothing to do with a 'conflict'? YES.

Who did what to who 1,000 years ago doesn't mean jack shit to the present situation. The Jewish settlers have uprooted people who had every right to live on the land that they were living on. Settlements are inside of the West Bank and Gaza which are against international law, they are illegal. Non-Jews do not have the right to move freely about 'their' land, and a host of other things. So there is in essence, no difference between what Israel is doing now, and what South Africa did for so many years. They oppressed the indigenous population, demoted them to 2nd class citizens, and evicted them from their land and forced them to live in ghettos.

Whats even more appauling, is that Israel is doing to 3 million people, what Germany did to millions Jewish people. The only difference? Israel is doing it slow and painfully, and Hitler did it quick and fast. Ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing, it doesn't matter what face you put on it.

It is ok because they are Jews, you know the special people who can do no wrong. An idiot can go back at look at history and see the havoc they cause everywhere they go. Yet they have everyone believing "Poor Jews"..bla bla bla

Asking who attacked who, is really an argument like the chicken or the egg. Do Palestinians commit suicide bombings because they hate Jews and their religion? Of course not, that is as absurd as saying Arabs commit terrorism against America because we are "Free and prosperous, and they hate our way of life and our freedom." Arabs commit terrorism against the US because we have been meddling in their affairs for 60 years, overthrowing their elected governments, installing dictators, setting up bases on their holy land, etc. Palestinians commit suicide bombings because Israel has evicted millions of people from their land which was rightfully theirs, routinely targets civilians in engagements, uses civilians as human shields, starves them of food and water, denies them freedom of movement, denies them access to medical care, and has imprisoned them in two areas known as the Gaza strip and West Bank. After all, Palestinians didn't commit suicide bombings prior to the formation of Israel and the eviction of its people did it?

Amen!

Bold

[Kratos]

Whats even more appauling, is that Israel is doing to 3 million people, what Germany did to millions Jewish people. The only difference? Israel is doing it slow and painfully, and Hitler did it quick and fast.?

So, they should have done what muslims did in the pakistan partition when they killed millions of hindu for no good reason other then wanting a Muslim nation seperate from India.

These are people who waged war against Israel and ended up behind fences as a result. Not innocent citizens. It isn't so simple.