can u gain lean muscle rather than bulk then cut ?

[Eazy20]

Not true at all. You do not need to add bodyfat to add muscle tissue.

I never said you need to? I said it's much faster and easier to add muscle tissue by bulking up then cutting the fat down? It's way easier to get up from 180-230 and cut down to 200 10%bf then to try and lean bulk your way to 200 10%bf...

[FireGuy]

I never said you need to? I said it's much faster and easier to add muscle tissue by bulking up then cutting the fat down? It's way easier to get up from 180-230 and cut down to 200 then to try and lean bulk your way to 200...

I completely disagree, and I speak from experience of doing it both ways.

[Eazy20]

I completely disagree, and I speak from experience of doing it both ways.

As I disagree with you. If you're lean bulking you don't know if you are eating exactly as much you need to maximize your growth 100% you could end up 500cal short/day or even 1,000. You couldn't be 100% sure. Ever seen someone who's bulked and then cut vs. lean bulked the whole way? The guy who bulked up tends to look bigger. Hence why BBs don't lean bulk in the offseason. I've personally done it both ways and I found that for me bulking first then cutting is more beneficial, but as we all know, everyone has what works best for them in this game.

[FireGuy]

As I disagree with you. If you're lean bulking you don't know if you are eating exactly as much you need Yes I do, it's called dialing in your diet.to maximize your growth 100% you could end up 500cal short/day or even 1,000. You couldn't be 100% sure.True, but doing weekly bodycomps I can be 100% sure that if I am gaining bodyfat I am eating more calories than my body requires after all muscle growth has been accounted for. This is why I weigh all my food, count all my calories and do weekly body comps. Ever seen someone who's bulked and then cut vs. lean bulked the whole way? The guy who bulked up tends to look bigger.It is because he is bigger, FATTER! Hence why BBs don't lean bulk in the offseason.Who says bodybuilder dont lean bulk? I know quite a few and I would say the vast majority do exactly that. I've personally done it both ways and I found that for me bulking first then cutting is more beneficial, but as we all know, everyone has what works best for them in this game.I would like to see your data you have comparing your body compostions at different weights using each method

I am curious, do you actually compete? Not that it's a requirement to form an opinion on this topic but I think you would have more insight. Everyone whom I have ever seen bulk up grossly overestimates the amount of muscle they put on and underestimates the amount of fat they gained. I have bulked twice in my life, both right after a contest. Both times I gained exactly 50lbs and both times when I dieted down for my next show a year later I was two lbs heavier. Gain 50, lose 48. Countless other times I have stayed lean throughout the year and have averaged a 3-4lbs increase in competition weight going this route. I have also prepped several competitive bodybuilders and have seen the exact same type of scenario played out time after time.

[OneCrazyM0f0]

Both times I gained exactly 50lbs and both times when I dieted down for my next show a year later I was two lbs heavier. Gain 50, lose 48. Countless other times I have stayed lean throughout the year and have averaged a 3-4lbs increase in competition weight going this route. I have also prepped several competitive bodybuilders and have seen the exact same type of scenario played out time after time.

Not trying to stoke the fire here, but in this scenario I would question your dieting/cutting methods rather than your bulking methods. It sounds like you were losing quite a bit of muscle tissue during your cut phase.

Also another point I'll mention - you obviously compete as a bodybuilder, therefore it's safe to assume you have quite a bit more discipline when it comes to what you eat. While it's entirely possible to add some nice lean muscle without adding fat, it's always more optimal in terms of pure muscle gain to create a caloric surplus, which will almost definitely add some body fat. I would never recommend a diet as strict and calculated as yours to a 21 year old guy looking to add some muscle. He will get frustrated and fail. As would most of us.

[FireGuy]

Not trying to stoke the fire here, but in this scenario I would question your dieting/cutting methods rather than your bulking methods. It sounds like you were losing quite a bit of muscle tissue during your cut phase.
Also another point I'll mention - you obviously compete as a bodybuilder, therefore it's safe to assume you have quite a bit more discipline when it comes to what you eat. While it's entirely possible to add some nice lean muscle without adding fat, it's always more optimal in terms of pure muscle gain to create a caloric surplus, which will almost definitely add some body fat. I would never recommend a diet as strict and calculated as yours to a 21 year old guy looking to add some muscle. He will get frustrated and fail. As would most of us.

This actually reinforces my point. When you add all that bodyfat you have to diet harder and longer to get back to the same state of leaness you were previously which causes you to lose much of whatever muscle you added to begin with. Yes, going from 188 competition weight to 238 off season I more than likely gained more than 2lbs of lean mass BUT....now I have to diet way harder and way longer to get back into contest shape. Now my last show starting at 190 and then staying in the 212-216 range I didnt have to diet as hard or as long, I did not have to do nearly as much cardio and was able to step on stage at 195. Plus, I looked lean and had a 6pack year round, I was healthier and I saved my skins elasticity as well. <--Trust me when you get older this will become very important to everyone and those who stay in shape year round will reap the benefits.

[OneCrazyM0f0]

Maybe you could try chopping it up into a few bulk/cut cycles. I know some guys that will do 4-6 weeks of bulking, then do a "mini-cut" for about 3 weeks, then rinse - repeat.

You may keep more of your gains this way, and you wouldn't have to diet for so long and risk losing all of your newly gained lean muscle.

(Given your experience you may have already tried this, but again, you being a competing bodybuilder who measures all of his food portions, etc.. are the exception rather than the rule. Most people simply won't discipline themselves as much)

Edit: And I fully realize that it probably looks ridiculous for a "newbie" with 8 total posts to be giving you advice. Please don't take it as disrespect because it's not. I don't have experience with steroids or bodybuilding, but I have tons of experience with making weight for fights while adding new strength and muscle between fights. My advice was more directed at the original poster and others who may be in his shoes.