Roman's log on Lower Back Problems - Results from MRI and more...

[Times Roman]

I have been plagued with lower back pain for about 25 years. The pain is chronic and the intensity modulates between about a 3 and an 8 on a 10 scale. I had Xrays several years ago, and the results were a relief as it indicated no disc problems and no visible problems with the spinal chord. What the Xrays did reveal were calcium deposits on the vertebrae (aka "arthritis) and these calcium deposits, otherwise known as "hooks and barbs" depending on their shape, irritate the surrounding tissue, causing pain and inflammation. I've been trying to manage the pain in the gym by the selection of the routines I perform, and at home with a variety of OTC meds and some Rx meds. Tens units, massage, hot/cold presses, and inversion tables proved no relief.

Recently, I went in for an MRI. 20 minutes in the toilet paper roll, with an additional 10 minutes after injecting die into a vein.

The results were somewhat expected, with a few twists.

Went to my consult a few days ago, and I found out that the calcium deposits were now more extensive, as they had "grown"

Additionally, they were pushing against a disc, somewhere near the 2 or 3 position

and finally, in the same position, they were beginning to choke off the spinal chord. Not a true "pinched" nerve yet, but well on it's way.

options presented to me:

1) stronger/more meds - unsatisfactory
2) chiro - unsatisfactory
3) acupuncture - unsatisfactory
4) RF - radio frequency
5) traditional surgery

I was expecting #5. I suspected #4, but didn't know it existed for this condition. I knew that they used RF for gall/kidney stones. they get in there with their device and zap the stone with RF and it crumbles small enough so it can pass without traditional surgery.

I decided to explore this option. But they need to "test" to see if this is a viable option.

The plan is I will go in on the 26th, and do a preliminary test. This means a 20 minute procedure, done under a local, with six injections, one on the right, one on the left, at each of the 2/3/4 positions. If I find some relief, they will go through with the RF procedure. If no relief, then we will discuss traditional surgery. The RF procedure is done in two steps, the first step is the right/left side, and the second step is the remaining side. If all goes well after the RF, i'll find relief and able to return to work the next day.

This will not be something I'll be taking TB for, btw.

So I will keep track of what is going on with my condition. There are others here with a similar condition, and it may prove helpful if they decide to pursue a similar path.

if all goes well, we'll be able to move forward after having favorable results from the 26th. I'll try to keep an accurate log as I usually do and make it easy to follow.

Until then...........


---Roman









edit: go to frame #30 for a detailed description of the prelim procedure and an actual description of RF technique.

hot link to 30 here : http://forums.steroid.com/injuries-r...ml#post6920755

edit: now go to frames 76 and 77 for a description and discussion and results of the actual procedure

hot link to 76 here : http://forums.steroid.com/injuries-r...ml#post6966975

[derekkpapa1]

Hoping everything works out for you brother.

[Times Roman]

me too.

it's hard for the people around me to understand what chronic pain can do to one's quality of life. I "sit around" a lot, and except for the gym, not as active as I'd like to be. I avoid activities that I perceive that will "hurt my back". This includes camping (something I thoroughly love. it's not the camping, but the set up and take down of the camp site that causes me grief). I don't do amusement parks, like Disneyland and Magic Mountain/Six Flags well, since standing in line hurts my back. This confuses the hell out of my family, as they obvious know about the gym and see what appears to be someone in great shape.

My wife is always, well, sometimes, trying to get me to mow the back lawn. I think down deep, she perceives my aversion to activities that trigger back pain as a sign of laziness instead? We sometimes argue about things like this.

So yeah, if I can get my back fixed, I will hopefully see big improvements to quality of life.

[lovbyts]

Best of luck. That was a big part of my back problem (calcium deposit choking off the spinal chord) on L3&L4, 25yr+ of getting worse slowly after originally injury. When I had surgery they had to clean out the calcium deposit. I felt 99.9% better starting the day of surgery.

[GirlyGymRat]

Hope you find the relief you seek!!!

Curious about the acupuncture option. Have u ever tried? I haven't.

[Times Roman]

Best of luck. That was a big part of my back problem (calcium deposit choking off the spinal chord) on L3&L4, 25yr+ of getting worse slowly after originally injury. When I had surgery they had to clean out the calcium deposit. I felt 99.9% better starting the day of surgery.

I'm hoping for a similar result

Hope you find the relief you seek!!!

Curious about the acupuncture option. Have u ever tried? I haven't.

it's not a serious option for me. I can't possibly imagine it cures the root of the problem. To me, it only sounds like a better option than taking pain pills, something I won't consider much longer either.

Accupuncture is supposed to bring relief for some of the "softer" conditions, like allergies and headaches. But what I looked at in the MRI is a physical thing that will only get worse with time.

[lovbyts]

I did all the Chiro, acupuncture, epidural injections and more over 25yrs+. I wish I had done the back surgery 10 years earlier, if the procedure was the same and also wish I had gotten back in shape after the 1st surgery so I didnt have to have the 2nd one.

Pain pills are still needed off and on after the 2nd surgery but it's more just aggravating than anything else compared to how it was before the surgeries.

[RaginCajun]

me too.it's hard for the people around me to understand what chronic pain can do to one's quality of life. I "sit around" a lot, and except for the gym, not as active as I'd like to be. I avoid activities that I perceive that will "hurt my back". This includes camping (something I thoroughly love. it's not the camping, but the set up and take down of the camp site that causes me grief). I don't do amusement parks, like Disneyland and Magic Mountain/Six Flags well, since standing in line hurts my back. This confuses the hell out of my family, as they obvious know about the gym and see what appears to be someone in great shape. My wife is always, well, sometimes, trying to get me to mow the back lawn. I think down deep, she perceives my aversion to activities that trigger back pain as a sign of laziness instead? We sometimes argue about things like this. So yeah, if I can get my back fixed, I will hopefully see big improvements to quality of life.

that line says it all for me (it's hard for the people around me to understand what chronic pain can do to one's quality of life)! i am in the same boat. hope that RF helps out, seems to work on gall stones and kidney stones pretty well. not sure if it is the same case as those though. if not, looks like surgery is your option as it looks like it lovbyts out. and you know how he has to try to stay young for all his ladies!

[Times Roman]

that line says it all for me (it's hard for the people around me to understand what chronic pain can do to one's quality of life)! i am in the same boat. hope that RF helps out, seems to work on gall stones and kidney stones pretty well. not sure if it is the same case as those though. if not, looks like surgery is your option as it looks like it lovbyts out. and you know how he has to try to stay young for all his ladies!

naw....

....LB has given up on trying to stay young for the ladies. He now just opens his wallet..............! =)

[lovbyts]

naw....

....LB has given up on trying to stay young for the ladies. He now just opens his wallet..............! =)

Hopefully this one will out live me since the other two did not. That's really how I stay young; Vampire.

[Times Roman]

well, we always could open up that gentleman's club on some phillipine island and have a ready supply of willing hotties?

[lovbyts]

well, we always could open up that gentleman's club on some phillipine island and have a ready supply of willing hotties?

That's still the general idea. I dont know, it might not be good for your back though. I can tell you that is what contributed 90% of my last back surgery when I ruptured L5/S1.
Yes it was worth it.

[optionsdude]

Good luck TR. I've never heard of RF operation for spine before. Would this be the same as a laser spine surgery?

[600@50]

Best of luck TR. You'll be just fine. I've never heard of RF treatment for the back. Seems like the least invasive and worth a shot. Take care man.

[Times Roman]

Good luck TR. I've never heard of RF operation for spine before. Would this be the same as a laser spine surgery?

no. laser uses a different frequency "light". RF uses a frequency in the radio wave spectrum. Both are actually a form of light. one you can "see", the other you cannot.

Best of luck TR. You'll be just fine. I've never heard of RF treatment for the back. Seems like the least invasive and worth a shot. Take care man.

Thanks mate. we'll see how it goes. If all goes well, it could be a month or two before finished.

[Flatus78]

Dear Times Roman

I have a bit of knowledge regarding LBP(lower back pain), with pressure on "a bit", and it is always difficult if it gets chronic(and affecting everyday activities), but that you are able to go to the gym is probably the best you can do(except doing max lift in squats and deadlift of course or exercises that causes excessive pains afterwards).
And maybe you also have Schmorlsk/schmorl`s impressions/nodes( a protrusions of the cartilage of the intervertebral disc through the vertebral body endplate and into the adjacent vertebra, and primarily only visible on MRI but not everyone talk about them) in addition? And it is believed that it causes pain(but not for everyone perhaps). So far everyone that I have spoken to about this degeneration has not recieved any treatment except "live as normal as possibly and train up to the pain barrier").

VAS score on 8/10 is very, very high, I can not understand how you manage the pain, really hope that you will get better!

The RF in regards to your condition sounds very interesting, and I wish you the best, good luck on the 26th? Please keep us posted so we can follow your progress

[Times Roman]

Dear Times Roman

I have a bit of knowledge regarding LBP(lower back pain), with pressure on "a bit", and it is always difficult if it gets chronic(and affecting everyday activities), but that you are able to go to the gym is probably the best you can do(except doing max lift in squats and deadlift of course or exercises that causes excessive pains afterwards).
And maybe you also have Schmorlsk/schmorl`s impressions/nodes( a protrusions of the cartilage of the intervertebral disc through the vertebral body endplate and into the adjacent vertebra, and primarily only visible on MRI but not everyone talk about them) in addition? And it is believed that it causes pain(but not for everyone perhaps). So far everyone that I have spoken to about this degeneration has not recieved any treatment except "live as normal as possibly and train up to the pain barrier").

VAS score on 8/10 is very, very high, I can not understand how you manage the pain, really hope that you will get better!

The RF in regards to your condition sounds very interesting, and I wish you the best, good luck on the 26th? Please keep us posted so we can follow your progress

thanks mate

yes, the pain gets old. 25 progressive years I've had to deal with this. the 26th is just a preliminary test to see if the RF would work. If it does, then I'll go ahead with the procedure.

[Times Roman]

one week before the procedure, and was told to stop anything that thins the blood.

no more aspirin 82 mg at night
no more alleve

I started on morphine. seems to work. low dose. 5mg 2x day.
a little better than the alleve it seems.

didn't want to be taking morphine daily.
I usually only take it when my neck pain begins to snowball, so I take it to prevent it from getting any worse.

other options were
Tylenol - too mild
oxy - sorry, not going down that path, and it makes me itch.

[600@50]

Do what you have to do to get by. Relief is coming soon. You'll be just fine TR.

[Times Roman]

woke up this AM. it's hard to stand up straight right off the bat. Significant pain, audible moaning and groaning as I'm fumbling around in the bedroom in the dark. Downed a morphine, now in the recliner waiting for some relief to kick in...............

[WMSuperSport]

Brother, Ive been in the same boat for a decade, and Im 31. I work in the oilfield, love to work on projects around the house, lift of course, etc, and this stuff is crippling every day. I feel you when we say "we hope others dont perceive our pain and responses and LAZINESS!" Luckily I have a good girlfriend who understands
I have those barbs, arthritus, but with a ruptured disk, some slight scoliosis, and some "nerve canal" never developed poperly, so Im always hurting, and Im dependant on hydrochodone....again.

Procedures Ive done:
Regular chiro - maybe kinda helps a little if done very regulary
Inversion table - seems to help a little for a couple minutes
OTC meds - nothing lol
Hydrochodone - Id say helps with maybe less than half the pain if I take 10 - 20mg several times a day. And Yes I run out every month and go thru withdrawels, along with the other downsides we all know about.
3 sets of back injections - pretty much nothing, but cost a shitload of money
And next week theyre going to inject something that temporarily blocks the nerve signal, so if this works, then they will go in and "burn" the nerves! They say that should give ~60% relief and last ~2 yrs!
Im really excited and hopeful that this will work and change my life!

Has anyone here had their nerves burnt?

[Times Roman]

^ "nerves burnt"??

that doesn't sound good.

yes, I too have the scoliosis, and "sway" back.

I had to cut the gym short. Partial reason was back pain. I have to stay off the alleve (works great for me) until after the procedure on the 26. The morphine "sounds" like something real heavy, but I prefer the alleve. morph is only 5mg tabs, a mild dose apparently.

Check back in here after the 26th and i'll let you know how it went. Something for you to consider if it ends up working for me

[WMSuperSport]

"Burnt nerves" is a good thing. The medical term sounds fancier, but thats what it is. It blocks the nerves from sending pain signals. They repair and come back 1.5-2 years they say so it has to be redone every so often.
Thanks Times, Ill keep checking back to see how youre doing. Im glad I have someone to share this with lol!

[Times Roman]

went to a live band block party "thing" last night. Same one every year. Bumped into someone from my past. We talked briefly, but without acknowledging the incident. Got pretty lit. Had a pint of 1800 and 8 cans of Guinness. Plus some recreational activity that is legal in Colorado. I did go to the gym yesterday, but skipped the cardio. And I woke up hard. Back was killing me. I've had two oxy and two morphine so far today. The pain has been numbed. But still there, letting me know it's there and coming back as soon as my last oxy wears off. And I only have a few morphine left, too. I put in a request for more morphine with my doc, but that was three days ago, and no email in my inbox from him yet.

For all you youngsters that laugh at the geezers that are not doing the heavy compounds, like squats, let me say this....


....your day is coming!

[lovbyts]

went to a live band block party "thing" last night. Same one every year. Bumped into someone from my past. We talked briefly, but without acknowledging the incident. Got pretty lit. Had a pint of 1800 and 8 cans of Guinness. Plus some recreational activity that is legal in Colorado. I did go to the gym yesterday, but skipped the cardio. And I woke up hard. Back was killing me. I've had two oxy and two morphine so far today. The pain has been numbed. But still there, letting me know it's there and coming back as soon as my last oxy wears off. And I only have a few morphine left, too. I put in a request for more morphine with my doc, but that was three days ago, and no email in my inbox from him yet.

For all you youngsters that laugh at the geezers that are not doing the heavy compounds, like squats, let me say this....


....your day is coming!

I hear that, I though I was invincible but I found out far to soon I wasnt at only the age of 23 stocking a house with sheetrock.

I hope things get better soon and like I keep saying, Ice, Ice, Ice.

[Times Roman]

I'm out of pain meds as of last night. morph and oxy are gone. another Rx of morph is on the way. But today will be another story. I need to go to the store on the way to work and get the only OTC allowed. Tylenol. I stopped using years ago as it didn't seem to do much for me. but in this case, maybe something will be better than nothing.

Without the pain meds, sleeping on my side (preferred method) causes too much pain as side sleeping doesn't keep the spine in good verticle alignment. I've been sleeping on my back more lately, and not so much tossing and turning.

Let's see what today brings me. The procedure is tomorrow afternoon, the prelim test. After that, I can take my pain meds again

[Flatus78]

Wishing you the best tomorrow TR! Sending you good vibrations, hope that you can get some relief soon

[Times Roman]

Tylenol is only providing mild, if any relief.

Today is the prelim procedure. After, I can resume with the pain meds.

didn't go to the gym last night due to the pain and found a reason not to go... delta blood called so I donated blood instead. won't go to the gym tonight since probably not a good idea with the lower back numbed up. I'll probably just kick it in front of the TV tonight.....

[600@50]

Good luck today TR. Let us know how it went.

[Times Roman]

Well, that was different, and not quite what I expected.

So this semi cute French chic comes in and talks my ear off....

....all through the procedure.

It's called a distraction technique. You are all familiar with it.

So I lay down. There are no locals given. Lady pulls my gym shorts down, and thank god for clean underwear. Momma was right! =)

Swabs down the lower back with iodine, and she starts apologizing for the pain up front.

I run through my relaxation techniques, focus on breathing, and listening to the rhythm of her yammering.

First of six didn't hurt so bad. Then another and another. Finally all six needles are inserted. And she's still apologizing.

I'm fairly relaxed. Caught myself tensing up a few times, and maintained composure.

Then she started tightening the needles. Deeper they went. It felt like she was sticking them in between the vertebrae. There was some discomfort, for sure.

She continued to synch the needles, one at a time. Almost like a torqueing sequence on the cylinder heads. And some more discomfort.

Finally, she said here comes the "tricky" part.

OK, go for it.

Evidently, the "tricky" part occurs when they do the actual injection of the numbing substance on the actual nerve ending.

Finally, she said, "OK. "We're through".

I admit, I was sweating, and occasionally, I did say "uh, huh", acknowledging there was pain.

But all in, not too bad.

She explained to me that quite often, when the patient doesn't relax, they either have to reinsert the needle, and quite often, the needle bends. Back muscles, she says, are especially tough and strong.

She didn't have to redo any insertions, evidently I was relaxed enough she was able to finish on the first go around.

I stand up and just like that, 85% of my pain was gone. It's been two hours, and I"d say I'm still 70% improved. It will slowly dissipate during the evening, and when I wake up, the old pain will return. But so far, it looks like the results are encouraging.





Now for the bad news.

I misunderstood what the actual procedure entails. There was a member above me that mentioned burning nerves, and that's pretty close to what they do. But they use the radio frequency to deaden the nerve to block the pain. The surgical alternative, is a fusion of the spine, which is a non option. Additionally, the RF will need to be re-performed from time to time as the deadened nerves begins to "awaken". She said the usual range is somewhere between every 3 to 24 months, but most typically every year.

So that's about it.

I can see where some will be freaked about the needles in the spine. And that's understandable. But to get a little, you have to give a little. Just the way it works.

[lovbyts]

OK my back muscles are tensing up just reading that. Ive had several epidural injections. First 3 weren't bad actually. The 2nd set I didnt like very much and the last set of 3 I had a HARD time making it through them and refuse to do it again but with the epidural they do go in-between the spinal cord.

I dont think I would like to do something like that if it had to be redone every year.

Have you looked into the electronic nerve block? They have a little device they implant just under your skin that sends a little electrical charge that is supposed to block the pain. Not like a muscle stimulate or more of a frequency thing.

Spinal Cord Stimulator, Cincinnati - Mayfield Clinic

[Flatus78]

Glad to hear that the procedure when without complications and that you are feeling better, hopefully the positive effect will last for a long time. Thanks for sharing your story and the procedure.

[optionsdude]

I'm happy for you that it's over with and you're getting some relief. I hope you continue to improve

[Times Roman]

LB-
Spinal Chord Stimulator...
....I have a phone meeting with my doc tomorrow after lunch. I'll bring it up. thanks for the idea.

I'm thinking the RF procedure will be a little more intense than yesterday's prelim procedure. I should probably ask if I'll be conscious (most likely), and if so, should I take a mild sedative. I'm not afraid of pain, but tensing makes the procedure take longer and makes it more difficult for them. I held it together pretty good with the prelim procedure, but if more intense and longer duration, something to mellow me out could be helpful

OK my back muscles are tensing up just reading that. Ive had several epidural injections. First 3 weren't bad actually. The 2nd set I didnt like very much and the last set of 3 I had a HARD time making it through them and refuse to do it again but with the epidural they do go in-between the spinal cord.

I dont think I would like to do something like that if it had to be redone every year.

Have you looked into the electronic nerve block? They have a little device they implant just under your skin that sends a little electrical charge that is supposed to block the pain. Not like a muscle stimulate or more of a frequency thing.

Spinal Cord Stimulator, Cincinnati - Mayfield Clinic

Glad to hear that the procedure when without complications and that you are feeling better, hopefully the positive effect will last for a long time. Thanks for sharing your story and the procedure.

no - this was just a prelim procedure to see if the actual procedure might work. The actual procedure should be more intense and longer duration, is what I'm thinking.

I'm happy for you that it's over with and you're getting some relief. I hope you continue to improve

Thanks mate, but this was just the prelim procedure. I'll find out tomorrow after talking to my doc when the next step will be

[Flatus78]

Ok, I understand. Maybe you can ask if you can get some midazolam, that will definitely make you relax(this is typically given before uncomfortable procedures like gastro- or colonoskopies), but you will still be awake. From what you wrote regarding the prelim I would demand something to make me more relaxed because maybe that would make the procedure safer(if I am breaking any rules by mentioning these medication I will remove the name immediately))

[Times Roman]

LB -

I asked about the electro spinal pain blocker thingamajiggee and she said that is a fairly invasive procedure, which is one of the main benefits of what I'm doing, which is that it is fairly non invasive. She also said the devise I mentioned is used when the pain shoots through the arms and legs, none of which applies to me.

Flatus -

She said she was surprised the level of control I had during the prelim procedure. It was she that offered something to take the edge off. So she'll have it ready when I get there. The actual procedure IS more intense (more "pain" and longer duration), AND I have to do it twice (left/right side) on two separate occasions.

Someone will call me in the next day or so and set up the date/time. I'm going to have semi cute French chic do it like last time. Maybe i'll have her give me a massage after?

[Times Roman]

almost forgot

the doc wants me to space the left and right side procedures a good three weeks apart. she seems to think too painful to do them both together.

told her about the TB. She looked it up and asked a bunch of questions. Her concern was that it wasn't pharm grade. After discussing all that, she said it sounded like a pretty good idea, and "Thanks, I never heard of TB before"

......see? docs only know what the FDA wants them to know. And not much else. She's the second doc I've discussed TB with and neither had ever heard.

Anyways, I'm thinking I'm not going to wait three weeks for the second half of the procedure. Personally, I'd rather get it all over and done with and then back in the gym full speed as soon as possible. My gym intensity has been lagging because of the back and I'm sick of it!

[lovbyts]

Well good luck with all that and hopefully you get some good relieve from it. I HATE needles anywhere near my back and my pain management doctor who is an attractive 1/2 Filipino was asking me if I was interested in something like that or the epidural injection since they do them in office and I said no offense but you are not going anywhere near my midsection if you have a needle in your hand. Yeah I know hard to believe especially coming from me. lol

Hmm my PMD said the electronic shock thingy was fairly invasive. Maybe it all depends on what you consider invasive

[Times Roman]

Well good luck with all that and hopefully you get some good relieve from it. I HATE needles anywhere near my back and my pain management doctor who is an attractive 1/2 Filipino was asking me if I was interested in something like that or the epidural injection since they do them in office and I said no offense but you are not going anywhere near my midsection if you have a needle in your hand. Yeah I know hard to believe especially coming from me. lol

Hmm my PMD said the electronic shock thingy was fairly invasive. Maybe it all depends on what you consider invasive

They have to surgically implant it below the skin. Which means the risk of a staff infection. plus this lump under the skin.

[Times Roman]

MY shipment of TB just came in. I seem to have a lot of TB now, so I'll start a healing cycle to cover during this back procedure. My doc said there could be swelling from all the needles, so i'll probably go through 15mg over maybe a two month period. Once I get a date, I can begin.