Nutrition has become as much of a taboo subject as religion and politics.

[jay94]

Am I the only one who feels this way?

Whenever you bring up most people's unhealthy eating habits, they become uneasy and defensive.

The other day I was telling a friend about the recent research I've read on and which states that fructose triggers the brain's reward pathways but not its satiety mechanisms, which is why upon ingesting some you still feel hungry and want to eat more.

And she answered that 'everything in moderation is fine' and then proceeded to basically ignore what I'd just talked about.

[Docd187123]

Am I the only one who feels this way?

Whenever you bring up most people's unhealthy eating habits, they become uneasy and defensive.

The other day I was telling a friend about the recent research I've read on and which states that fructose triggers the brain's reward pathways but not its satiety mechanisms, which is why upon ingesting some you still feel hungry and want to eat more.

And she answered that 'everything in moderation is fine' and then proceeded to basically ignore what I'd just talked about.

So you avoid eating fruit? An unprocessed food that is chock full of nutrients, micronutrients, and phytonutrients?

You're friend is actually correct. Moderation is the key word which many miss. Why don't you post up a link or copy and paste the research you read so that we may analyze it ourselves?

One thing you maybe missing is that context and dose are critical to the topic at hand. Without talking context and dose it's a meaningless convo. Another thing is you have to go out of your way to get fructose by itself in the natural or artificial domain. In almost every instance you can think of fructose is paired with glucose which triggers leptin and insulin responses. The lack of insulin and leptin response is the reason ppl make the claim you did in the first post.

Here's some interesting reads in the subject:

Spitzer L, Rodin J. Effects of fructose and glucose preloads on subsequent food intake. Appetite. 1987 Apr;8(2):135-45. [Medline]

Rodin J, Reed D, Jamner L. Metabolic effects of fructose and glucose: implications for food intake. Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Apr;47(4):683–9.

Rodin J. Comparative effects of fructose, aspartame, glucose and water preloads on calorie and macronutrient intake. Am J Clin Nutr 1990;51:428–35. [Medline]

Rodin J. Effects of pure sugar versus mixed starch fructose loads on food intake. Appetite 1991;17:213–9.[Medline]

Moran TH. Fructose and satiety. J Nutr. 2009 Jun;139(6):1253S-1256S. Epub 2009 Apr 29. [Medline]

[jay94]

No, I don't avoid eating fruits. But I eat mainly high fiber and low fructose fruits, and I certainly avoid all soft drinks and processed food products that are rich in high fructose corn syrup. But this is going off topic.

edit : here's the two studies I looked at:

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article....icleid=1555133 (basically says that glucose triggers satiety but not fructose)
http://advances.nutrition.org/content/4/2/226.abstract (basically says that fructose is very much like ethanol and downregulates the d2 receptors of the hedonic pathway, i.e. it's addictive in a way)

[Bio-Active]

Am I the only one who feels this way?

Whenever you bring up most people's unhealthy eating habits, they become uneasy and defensive.

The other day I was telling a friend about the recent research I've read on and which states that fructose triggers the brain's reward pathways but not its satiety mechanisms, which is why upon ingesting some you still feel hungry and want to eat more.

And she answered that 'everything in moderation is fine' and then proceeded to basically ignore what I'd just talked about.

Honestly i do not discuss my nutrition with people that are not interested in this sport. Most do not really understand the commitment that it really takes to look the way we do and that it all revolved around nutrition.

[Docd187123]

Well your friend dismissing your claim about fructose seemed central to the topic from what I thought but ok.

So you eat fructose, via fruit, in moderation is what I take from what you said? Isn't that what your friend told you that triggered this?

Back on topic, I hope, you do make a point. Nutrition is not only taboo but it's an extension of many ppl's OCD habits or what have you. In one hand you have people who eat junk food all day and on the other end you have the 'clean-tards' as I've affectionately come to see them referred to as that base their entire lives around their food. One processed potato chip? Heavens no. One slice of wedding cake on your wedding night? Are you fukking crazy, the sugar will make me fat and send me to an early grace or give me diabetes. Usually the truth is somewhere in the middle.....that funny word moderation.

[jay94]

Well your friend dismissing your claim about fructose seemed central to the topic from what I thought but ok.

So you eat fructose, via fruit, in moderation is what I take from what you said? Isn't that what your friend told you that triggered this?

Back on topic, I hope, you do make a point. Nutrition is not only taboo but it's an extension of many ppl's OCD habits or what have you. In one hand you have people who eat junk food all day and on the other end you have the 'clean-tards' as I've affectionately come to see them referred to as that base their entire lives around their food. One processed potato chip? Heavens no. One slice of wedding cake on your wedding night? Are you fukking crazy, the sugar will make me fat and send me to an early grace or give me diabetes. Usually the truth is somewhere in the middle.....that funny word moderation.

Well, you see, I used to be the kind of guy who would eat anything as long it would fit his target caloric intake. But after reading all the stuff that I have on simple carbs and LDL fats, I'm no longer a believer that a calorie is just a calorie. It IS mostly about caloric intake, but a lot of people go way beyond their caloric intake, and IMO that has to do with what is in some of these calories that they eat.

[Docd187123]

Well, you see, I used to be the kind of guy who would eat anything as long it would fit his target caloric intake. But after reading all the stuff that I have on simple carbs and LDL fats, I'm no longer a believer that a calorie is just a calorie. It IS mostly about caloric intake, but a lot of people go way beyond their caloric intake, and IMO that has to do with what is in some of these calories that they eat.

A calorie is not a calorie in the strictest sense. A calorie of dietary fat is very different than a calorie of protein. No argument there.

Can you post up some of what you're reading bc you're not talking specifics so it makes it harder to understand what specifically you're saying? Can you also explain what you mean by ppl going over their caloric intake and that being bc of what's in the calories they eat?

[jay94]

A calorie is not a calorie in the strictest sense. A calorie of dietary fat is very different than a calorie of protein. No argument there.

Can you post up some of what you're reading bc you're not talking specifics so it makes it harder to understand what specifically you're saying? Can you also explain what you mean by ppl going over their caloric intake and that being bc of what's in the calories they eat?

Check above. I edited my first reponse post with some of the research I was referring to.

[Docd187123]

There's more to add but this is just a quick critique

First study:

Participants arrived at the Yale Magnetic Resonance Research Center at 8 AM after an overnight fast. MRI was performed using a 3-Tesla Siemens Trio scanner (Siemens Medical Systems). A catheter was placed in an antecubital vein for blood sampling prior to initiating the study. Participants underwent baseline MRI acquisitions, including pulsed arterial spin labeling to determine regional CBF and blood oxygen level–dependent fMRI sequences to determine functional connectivity. Subsequently, they drank 75 g (300 kcal) of either sugar in 300 mL of cherry-flavored water, followed by a 60-minute postdrink acquisition and blood-sampling period.

^^^straight from the methods part. Notice the overnight fast portion. The body's response to anything can drastically change when going from a fasted state to a post prandial state. Makes a huge difference. Secondly, notice the part where they say participants drank 75g (300kcal) of each sugar. Can you tell me who eats 75g of fructose in a single sitting in the real world? Let alone anyone who does so in a fasted state and not a post prandial one? Remember, since fructose is almost always paired with glycogen in a 1:1 ratio or close to that, for one to take in 75g of fructose in a real world example, they'd need to take in another 75g of glucose ontop of that. Does that not sound alarm bells when you reach the conclusion portion?

Funny story but on topic, my cousin works at the hospital where this study was done. He knows one of the lead researchers pretty well. The guy is basically a Robert Lustig clone and has a personal vendetta against carbohydrates and fructose in particular. It didn't surprise me when I saw his name.

Time for dinner but I'll be back for the second study. You started an interesting thread btw, at least IMO it is.

[jay94]

Well the second study is by Lustig himself, sorry to disappoint you lol. I'd be curious to hear why you dislike him though.

[Docd187123]

Well the second study is by Lustig himself, sorry to disappoint you lol. I'd be curious to hear why you dislike him though.

Hahahaha. You're not disappointing by any stretch man. Like I said, this is a good thread, even if I disagree with what I believe your premise or conclusion to be.

In Lustig's opening paragraph he makes a mistake....actually the 3rd sentence when he claims the commonality between the Atkins and Japanese diets is the absence of fructose. The Japanese eat a lot of fruits and get a good amount of fructose in. Japanese are known to eat bananas, grapefruits, Mandarin oranges, apples, grapes, watermelons, pears, persimmons, peaches, and strawberries all of which are significant staples in their diet.

Lustig also ignores the multitude of research that has shown fructose to in fact have a satiating effect in appetite, similar to that of glucose. He ignores the fact that fructose is efficient in replenishing hepatic glycogen levels which is one of the number one ways to promote an anti-catabolic environment in times of metabolic stress or under eating. Other carbs can do this but they must go through additional pathways making it less efficient I think but don't quote me in that yet as I haven't verified it. When liver glycogen stores begin to be used bc if a workout or whatever other reason, it's almost always a sign of catabolism.

He also uses a lot of studies done on rats. Rats process carbs very differently than humans do. Using rat models to parallel humans is fine for something like protein synthesis which happens very similarly but not for carbs.

Probably the most ironic part of Lustig's paper is that he quotes the father of modern toxicology Paracelsus. Paracelsus has a famous saying "Poison is in everything, and no thing is without poison. The dosage makes it either a poison or a remedy." Lustig goes on to equate fructose with poison WITHOUT quantifying the dose or context....contradicting his own statement from the quote to begin with.

He is ardently anti-fructose and his results aren't surprising. He just proved his own confirmation bias he entered Into the study with.

[jay94]

Hahahaha. You're not disappointing by any stretch man. Like I said, this is a good thread, even if I disagree with what I believe your premise or conclusion to be.

In Lustig's opening paragraph he makes a mistake....actually the 3rd sentence when he claims the commonality between the Atkins and Japanese diets is the absence of fructose. The Japanese eat a lot of fruits and get a good amount of fructose in. Japanese are known to eat bananas, grapefruits, Mandarin oranges, apples, grapes, watermelons, pears, persimmons, peaches, and strawberries all of which are significant staples in their diet.

Lustig also ignores the multitude of research that has shown fructose to in fact have a satiating effect in appetite, similar to that of glucose. He ignores the fact that fructose is efficient in replenishing hepatic glycogen levels which is one of the number one ways to promote an anti-catabolic environment in times of metabolic stress or under eating. Other carbs can do this but they must go through additional pathways making it less efficient I think but don't quote me in that yet as I haven't verified it. When liver glycogen stores begin to be used bc if a workout or whatever other reason, it's almost always a sign of catabolism.

He also uses a lot of studies done on rats. Rats process carbs very differently than humans do. Using rat models to parallel humans is fine for something like protein synthesis which happens very similarly but not for carbs.

Probably the most ironic part of Lustig's paper is that he quotes the father of modern toxicology Paracelsus. Paracelsus has a famous saying "Poison is in everything, and no thing is without poison. The dosage makes it either a poison or a remedy." Lustig goes on to equate fructose with poison WITHOUT quantifying the dose or context....contradicting his own statement from the quote to begin with.

He is ardently anti-fructose and his results aren't surprising. He just proved his own confirmation bias he entered Into the study with.

Well, his research sure did confirm my own bias. From personal experience, I always thought that simple carbs never left me full, except when they were also coupled with dietary fibers. That's why I only eat fiber rich fruits and stay away from all HFCS rich products. But maybe I was wrong.

[Docd187123]

Well, his research sure did confirm my own bias. From personal experience, I always thought that simple carbs never left me full, except when they were also coupled with dietary fibers. That's why I only eat fiber rich fruits and stay away from all HFCS rich products. But maybe I was wrong.

The thing is it can be different for me than it is for you but with just as much research showing there is satiety to be had from fructose if not more than that which shows no satiety it kind of seems pointless to generalize to Lustig's extreme view. Those 5 studies I linked earlier are prime examples IMO.

Listen, I'm not telling you you must eat fructose or that it's better than any other carb source; I hope you realize that. If you wish to avoid it for personal reasons power to you and I hope you reach your goals. But would it make sense to condemn fructose to EVERYBODY based on some faulty research when realistically it makes up a small portion of most people's daily intake? It's like staying on your diet for a week then you eat 1 cookie before bed one day. How deleterious is that 1 cookie in the grand scheme of things when the other 99.8% of your diet and training is on point?

[jay94]

The thing is it can be different for me than it is for you but with just as much research showing there is satiety to be had from fructose if not more than that which shows no satiety it kind of seems pointless to generalize to Lustig's extreme view. Those 5 studies I linked earlier are prime examples IMO.

Listen, I'm not telling you you must eat fructose or that it's better than any other carb source; I hope you realize that. If you wish to avoid it for personal reasons power to you and I hope you reach your goals. But would it make sense to condemn fructose to EVERYBODY based on some faulty research when realistically it makes up a small portion of most people's daily intake? It's like staying on your diet for a week then you eat 1 cookie before bed one day. How deleterious is that 1 cookie in the grand scheme of things when the other 99.8% of your diet and training is on point?

Well you are right that it's just personal preference, but for me fulfilling a small sugar craving tends to lead to a much bigger one, so I just avoid them as much as possible except for some fruits that are rich in fiber because those fill me up like I said. But again, that's just me and there might not be much science behind that. However, correct me if I'm mistaken but, soft drinks and processed food products like candy DO contain a lot of fructose and are a big part of a lot of people's diet, the latter which I believe to be one of the many reasons behind the complex issue that is the obesity epidemic. Is fructose to blame though? Or is it something else in those products? I don't know, that's why I've been looking at research, because I know better than to rely on bro science.

Like you said, eating one cookie means nothing in the grand scheme of things, but what I've noticed is that these people tend to eat not just one cookie, but 10 or more. Maybe not when they're out in the world and you see them, but in the tranquility of their home when they're bored and no one is looking at them, they do. Again, that is generalization at its finest, but it's definitely something I've seen and heard of. To me, there is a reason for everything: there is a reason why people are eating 10 cookies and not just one, or an entire bag of chips instead of just a few chips. There is also a reason why they are eating chips and cookies and not fruits and vegetables. To me, you have three options when it comes to weight loss: 1. you count calories; 2. you generally eat things that are high in dietary fiber and low in calories; 3. you do both, that is the best option. However, most people that I've tried to help lose weight obviously didn't wanna count calories, so I've tried to get them to put down the cookie jar and the bag of chips, but a lot of people fail to do this even though they seem to be motivated to do so to a certain extent, and I've been trying really hard to figure out why. Also, this is also merely anecdotal evidence, but I've noticed that a lot of people seem to feel depressed or sad when they stop eating simple carbs in large amounts, which makes it really likely that they won't be able to do it for long, and that's another thing for which I've been trying hard to find a reason. That's why it really made me enthusiast when I initially came across Dr. Lustig's work.

But I haven't just been looking at Dr. Lustig's work. I've also been looking at the relationship between food, appetite and various hormones, like insulin, cortisol, ghrelin and leptin. And I've also been looking at gut microbiota and how some gut microbes can 'hijack' the track between the gut and the brain in order to make the latter crave their preferred nutrients. In all cases, thank you for making me realize how flawed Lustig's work actually was. I guess that, just like him, I was caught up in my own biases. Finding a solution to the obesity epidemic is one of my lifetime goals and I'll keep looking.

[Docd187123]

Well you are right that it's just personal preference, but for me fulfilling a small sugar craving tends to lead to a much bigger one, so I just avoid them as much as possible except for some fruits that are rich in fiber because those fill me up like I said. But again, that's just me and there might not be much science behind that. However, correct me if I'm mistaken but, soft drinks and processed food products like candy DO contain a lot of fructose and are a big part of a lot of people's diet, the latter which I believe to be one of the many reasons behind the complex issue that is the obesity epidemic. Is fructose to blame though? Or is it something else in those products? I don't know, that's why I've been looking at research, because I know better than to rely on bro science.

Like you said, eating one cookie means nothing in the grand scheme of things, but what I've noticed is that these people tend to eat not just one cookie, but 10 or more. Maybe not when they're out in the world and you see them, but in the tranquility of their home when they're bored and no one is looking at them, they do. Again, that is generalization at its finest, but it's definitely something I've seen and heard of. To me, there is a reason for everything: there is a reason why people are eating 10 cookies and not just one, or an entire bag of chips instead of just a few chips. There is also a reason why they are eating chips and cookies and not fruits and vegetables. To me, you have three options when it comes to weight loss: 1. you count calories; 2. you generally eat things that are high in dietary fiber and low in calories; 3. you do both, that is the best option. However, most people that I've tried to help lose weight obviously didn't wanna count calories, so I've tried to get them to put down the cookie jar and the bag of chips, but a lot of people fail to do this even though they seem to be motivated to do so to a certain extent, and I've been trying really hard to figure out why. Also, this is also merely anecdotal evidence, but I've noticed that a lot of people seem to feel depressed or sad when they stop eating simple carbs in large amounts, which makes it really likely that they won't be able to do it for long, and that's another thing for which I've been trying hard to find a reason. That's why it really made me enthusiast when I initially came across Dr. Lustig's work.

But I haven't just been looking at Dr. Lustig's work. I've also been looking at the relationship between food, appetite and various hormones, like insulin, cortisol, ghrelin and leptin. And I've also been looking at gut microbiota and how some gut microbes can 'hijack' the track between the gut and the brain in order to make the latter crave their preferred nutrients. In all cases, thank you for making me realize how flawed Lustig's work actually was. I guess that, just like him, I was caught up in my own biases. Finding a solution to the obesity epidemic is one of my lifetime goals and I'll keep looking.

We'll you just proved you are open to accepting new view points and you're honest enough to change your views when your threshold of evidence has been met to do so. Honestly not nearly enough people do that so kudos to you.

1) if YOU cannot satisfy a sugar craving without it leading to a binge than you are certainly better off avoiding them completely or at the very least tying to understand why you tend to binge. No question about it. On the other hand, others like myself can treat ourselves without binging. So I will not tell anyone they MUST eat a cookie for example but I would also expect someone in Lustig's position to NOT tell me NOT to eat fructose when it is only moderately included in my diet. Notice which one of these two is happening though....

2) Lustig's paper quoted a study that had participants taking in 135-150g of fructose. That's like 6-10 average size soft drinks. When someone drinks that many calories, remember liquid calories are less satiating than whole food calories for the most part, and these people take that fructose ON TOP OF THEIR EXISTING DIET, is it any wonder they are getting fat? Add to that the increased sedentary nature of our society which means we burn less calories I'd say of course we are getting fatter but is it fructose or is there more to it?

3) the reward effect of food or something like that it's called is what you're talking about. There's research on it currently being done but you're absolutely right.....obesity is a multi factorial epidemic. Lustig blames fructose not so much that people are less active than before, not that people eat more carbs as a whole than before, not that ppl eat more fats than before. No it's that damned poison fructose.

Foods can trigger hormonal changes that tend to cause them to binge. I'd argue this is just as much about the person as it is the food itself since you binge whereas I don't. I'm not better than you and I doubt I'm necessarily more disciplined Thant you (I eat WHATEVER I want WHENEVER I want but I just make it fit my daily needs). Is it the food of we both eat the same item? There's evidence showing addiction to have a genetic factor, certain genetic markers from what I'm aware of will pre-dispose person A to addiction or binge eating more than person B. Again, is this fructose, the person, both, neither but something else completely? See where I'm going with this? Lustig reached his conclusion far in advance of what the evidence has offered so far. It's not 100% impossible that he is right, although he more than likely is, but there's not enough to say what he says to the degree he says it.

4) some people also lack will power and it's not even addiction or binging. They just figure, hey if I break my diet a little bit with one cookie I may as well have 10 and I can always go back on diet tomorrow. Do this 12times In a month and what's that net you?

To others the cost benefit analysis isn't worth it to them. The cost of reducing or prohibiting certain foods is not worth the benefit of a better body composition or the work reunited to earn it and maintain it. You can lead a horse to water but the drinking bit is on them.

5) I've seen examples of your anecdotal evidence of how people can get depressed and come undone when dropping. Certain foods. My experiences are that it's not limited to simple carbs but maybe yours are. My response to that is that it's no surprise it happens. What happens to someone going through a detox program for addiction when they stop cold turkey? The pyramids were not built in a day and with nutrition it's not realistic to expect everyone be able to drop all their favorite foods cold turkey. For these cases weening off or strictly limiting the intake could work better.

6) dr Lustig is no idiot as much as I may disparage him here. He is highly educated and has a very impressive background. I think it's just a case if him missing the forest for the trees and maybe having a little extra emphasis on his pet project so to speak.

If you want to learn more about this topic you are doing it in the right way. Researching, asking questions, validating and dismissing evidence, asking more questions, keeping an open mind, etc. Don't ever stop this process for any reason. These topics are not easy to understand and I'd be lying if I told you I had a complete grasp of it. I've been reading and experimenting with this for years on myself and others, asked questions, etc etc and I still feel like a newb in many aspects.

Get yourself some good undergrad/graduate level textbooks, scour PubMed and the like, and continue reading what other stuff you come across. Don't accept something just bc. If it withstands your scrutiny and that of others then that would be a reason to accept it at that point. PM me anytime and I'll link you to anything I come across if it fits your interests, I know 405 and GPrice on here are extremely smart in their own right so ask them too, and read up on Alan Aragon, Lyle McDonald, Jaime Hale, Ian McCarthy, Brad Schoenfeld, Will Brink and a few others. These guys tend to look at the totality of evidence and base their recommendations not on extremes but middle grounds where the truth is most often found.

I know I rambled a but but like I said, you piqued my interest highly with this thread and I'm glad we were able to go point by point without either one of us getting butt hurt ..

Edit* it's not a bad thing to fall victim to our own biases. It happens to everybody at one point or another. The true tragedy occurs when our ego gets in the way and doesn't allow us to reform an opinion.

[jay94]

Yeah. Glad we were able to have a nice open and respectful discussion on nutrition and eating habits. But to get back to the original topic, I think one issue is that a lot people aren't ready to do that, and I suspect that it's because it involves the idea that maybe they should change their unhealthy eating habits, and they don't wanna admit that these habits might be unhealthy nor change them. That friend I was talking about, I suspect that she said what she did because she felt that having such a discussion would indirectly attack her and her habits of drinking diet coke and eating out a Mcdies, which in themselves aren't that bad, but certainly are when they're on top of a caloric surplus and no physical exercise and happen multiple times a week. Personally, I'm dieting a certain way right now, but I'm also perfectly comfortable with the idea of admitting that I'm doing it wrong and then changing how I do it tomorrow if I find evidence that says so. But a lot of society isn't comfortable with that, and I think that's why nutrition has become such a taboo and touchy subject.

[Metalject]

Talking about nutrition with other people, most will find you annoying. Even if you are correct in everything you say, you will be perceived as annoying. There are people I know that do this, and despite 15yrs of bodybuilding I find it annoying. It's no different than sitting there going on and on about NASCAR, if the other person doesn't care about NASCAR, even if you're a true expert, you will come across as an annoying asshole.

I don't think it's quite on the same level as religion and politics. People get annoyed by that because they can't handle a differing opinion, or are also known as weak minded. On the issue of nutrition, in this case it's usually nothing more than the other person not caring. The exception is if you're arguing with another "nutrition minded" person, particularly one who lives to talk about organics and anti-GMO...those people are the biggest annoying assholes of them all.

[jay94]

Talking about nutrition with other people, most will find you annoying. Even if you are correct in everything you say, you will be perceived as annoying. There are people I know that do this, and despite 15yrs of bodybuilding I find it annoying. It's no different than sitting there going on and on about NASCAR, if the other person doesn't care about NASCAR, even if you're a true expert, you will come across as an annoying asshole.

I don't think it's quite on the same level as religion and politics. People get annoyed by that because they can't handle a differing opinion, or are also known as weak minded. On the issue of nutrition, in this case it's usually nothing more than the other person not caring. The exception is if you're arguing with another "nutrition minded" person, particularly one who lives to talk about organics and anti-GMO...those people are the biggest annoying assholes of them all.

Yeah. I've definitely noticed this. That's why I rarely ever talk about nutrition these days, unless the other person talks about it to me first.

[< <Samson> >]

Ha ha

So true,

I am looked as a freak of nature when I eat beans, chicken & brown rice over greasy pizza & garbage.

But, it's kinda what makes me "special". Fvck the average BS - take your pizza & your hot wings & shove them up your fat loose asses.


The way I look at myself with my over all nutrition & diet: I eat what I have to eat to look the way I way I want to look. Of course I love garbage foods - but, ummmm. We are what we eat

[kelkel]

the 'clean-tards' as I've affectionately come to see them referred to as that base their entire lives around their food. One processed potato chip? Heavens no. One slice of wedding cake on your wedding night? Are you fukking crazy, the sugar will make me fat and send me to an early grace or give me diabetes. .

Should be on the "Word of the Day Calendar." It's BBQ Chicken Pizza on the menu for me today. Probably kill the whole thing.

But, it's kinda what makes me "special".

Oh special is an understatement....

[Docd187123]

Should be on the "Word of the Day Calendar." It's BBQ Chicken Pizza on the menu for me today. Probably kill the whole thing.



Oh special is an understatement....

You see what I mean? ^^^^ Kel eats things like BBQ chicken pizza, which probably is not on the fructose topic, but he still has veins in his calves......it's like the subway map of NYC lol

[RaginCajun]

You see what I mean? ^^^^ Kel eats things like BBQ chicken pizza, which probably is not on the fructose topic, but he still has veins in his calves......it's like the subway map of NYC lol

And that is where genetics plays a role in all of this!

[GirlyGymRat]

And that is where genetics plays a role in all of this!

He seems to have great genetics but he also trains hard and eats very clean except for this chicken bbq pizza thingy which is very odd to me ( I like the classic thin crust pepperoni with garlic salt of course). It seems like it is a once a week cheat meal so seems he is deserving.

And yes he has great genetics but I say be the best you can be!!!! There is probably something terribly off with him that we just can't see. . lol

[Docd187123]

And that is where genetics plays a role in all of this!

True, he could have some really good genetics but we don't know that for sure. It may just be his drive, consistency, and hard work. I'm not going to discredit his results by blaming genetics....and I'm not saying that's what you are doing by any means.

[RaginCajun]

True, he could have some really good genetics but we don't know that for sure. It may just be his drive, consistency, and hard work. I'm not going to discredit his results by blaming genetics....and I'm not saying that's what you are doing by any means.

I think he attributes everything to his cardio routine, walking down the stairs in heels to his dungeon gym!

That guy trains his ass off and is an inspiration to everyone!

Just saying that genetics plays a role.

[RaginCajun]

He seems to have great genetics but he also trains hard and eats very clean except for this chicken bbq pizza thingy which is very odd to me ( I like the classic thin crust pepperoni with garlic salt of course). It seems like it is a once a week cheat meal so seems he is deserving. And yes he has great genetics but I say be the best you can be!!!! There is probably something terribly off with him that we just can't see. . lol

You need to try that pizza, it is fabulous! But so is the classic pizza!

[uhit]

I still get backbiting done whenever I turn down cake

It hurts my soul.

[kelkel]

You see what I mean? ^^^^ Kel eats things like BBQ chicken pizza, which probably is not on the fructose topic, but he still has veins in his calves......it's like the subway map of NYC lol

Those aren't veins. These are though:

There is probably something terribly off with him that we just can't see. . lol

So very true.

True, he could have some really good genetics but we don't know that for sure. It may just be his drive, consistency, and hard work. I'm not going to discredit his results by blaming genetics....and I'm not saying that's what you are doing by any means.

Twas not genetics, imho. Was a skinny fvcker.

I think he attributes everything to his cardio routine, walking down the stairs in heels to his dungeon gym!

I don't see the problem here.

[Metalject]

Twas not genetics, imho. Was a skinny fvcker.

That may be so but genetics still plays a role. Somewhere in there was the genetics to produce what you have. I used to train with some of the best bodybuilders out there for years. Same training, same consistency and the diet was spot on. My friends and training partners used to joke with me about how strict I was with my diet, and still I couldn't match them on stage. So I'd add more gear and still there were some I couldn't match.

Genetics and the genetic response to gear, that, in my opinion, is everything and will beat out hard work all day long.

[kelkel]

That may be so but genetics still plays a role. Somewhere in there was the genetics to produce what you have. I used to train with some of the best bodybuilders out there for years. Same training, same consistency and the diet was spot on. My friends and training partners used to joke with me about how strict I was with my diet, and still I couldn't match them on stage. So I'd add more gear and still there were some I couldn't match.

Genetics and the genetic response to gear, that, in my opinion, is everything and will beat out hard work all day long.

That's well said metal, and I know you know what I mean.

[Docd187123]

That's well said metal, and I know you know what I mean.

So about that bbq chicken pizza.....have enough to share with me? Austin hates pizza so don't worry about him

[kelkel]

You sir, are late. I killed 6 out of 8. My son got the rest. It's awesome stuff though. The chicken on top makes me feel better......
Austin's been rather reclusive lately. Probably moved another stripper in and is now trying to figure out how to get her out.

[BG]

Most do not really understand the commitment that it really takes to look the way we do and that it all revolved around nutrition.

I had a guy come up to me last night and say that I looked great. He said most people don't know understand what it takes but he did, he said well done. Its a much better compliment that way.

[RaginCajun]

You sir, are late. I killed 6 out of 8. My son got the rest. It's awesome stuff though. The chicken on top makes me feel better...... Austin's been rather reclusive lately. Probably moved another stripper in and is now trying to figure out how to get her out.

Haha prob right!

[< <Samson> >]

Oh special is an understatement....

Well yeah, but I don't want to gloat too much Ya know


But, another good point - diet is best not discussed with the usual folk - they just look at you like you're retarded or speaking a dif language.

[lovbyts]

Well yeah, but I don't want to gloat too much Ya know


But, another good point - diet is best not discussed with the usual folk - they just look at you like you're retarded or speaking a dif language.

Thats because nutrition has been morphed into it's OK to be fat or even obese as long as you eat healthy also, it's not about being fit in any way. If you are not at least 30lbs over weight and you have any muscle tone you MUST be on steroids. lol

I have a co worker (everyone hates him, everyone) who tells anyone new or anyone who will listen to him all kinds of made up BS about every other co worker. From what I have heard about me he says I go to the gym for 2 hrs ever day during work. LOL I wish and I actually take it as a complement even though he does not mean it that way.

[< <Samson> >]

Thats because nutrition has been morphed into it's OK to be fat or even obese as long as you eat healthy also, it's not about being fit in any way. If you are not at least 30lbs over weight and you have any muscle tone you MUST be on steroids. lol I have a co worker (everyone hates him, everyone) who tells anyone new or anyone who will listen to him all kinds of made up BS about every other co worker. From what I have heard about me he says I go to the gym for 2 hrs ever day during work. LOL I wish and I actually take it as a complement even though he does not mean it that way.

But, it's what kinda cool - being a super rare breed

You mirin bro? When your wife looks at me. Lol


The fatter society gets, the better I look

[lovbyts]

But, it's what kinda cool - being a super rare breed

You mirin bro? When your wife looks at me. Lol


The fatter society gets, the better I look

This is very true. I'm always self conscious when I go to the gym but most always shortly after I get there and start to look around I realize I'm in better shape than 99% of the guys then generally.

[Honkey_Kong]

Thats because nutrition has been morphed into it's OK to be fat or even obese as long as you eat healthy also, it's not about being fit in any way. If you are not at least 30lbs over weight and you have any muscle tone you MUST be on steroids. lol

I have a co worker (everyone hates him, everyone) who tells anyone new or anyone who will listen to him all kinds of made up BS about every other co worker. From what I have heard about me he says I go to the gym for 2 hrs ever day during work. LOL I wish and I actually take it as a complement even though he does not mean it that way.

I ****ing hate coworkers like that. I think every single company in the world has at least one of them too.

[lovbyts]

I ****ing hate coworkers like that. I think every single company in the world has at least one of them too.

This guy is extra bad because we all agree he is psychotic. If he is not on meds he definatly needs them. He ALWAYS thinks everyone is out to get him and constantly trying to back stab everyone he can. He thinks it's his job to log every little thing he can find anyone is doing wrong or he thinks is wrong and he wont go to management because they have said many times they dont want to know, they dont want to have to baby sit up and dont care for the most part what we do as long as we get our work done, to a point of course. Instead he reports everything to HR. HR doesn't like him either and it's being worked on how to get rid of him.

The biggest concern is if/when he will go postal. I have no doubt he is capable of that and always watch my back, literally. I'm just glad I dont have to work with him, we only overlap a little once in a while.